Kim Jong Un vs. Trump? Kim Jong Un sounds more reasonable.

[Yonny Costopoulis]

Kim Jong Un gave statement today. Explained that Trump words and actions confirm he make correct decision. When I compare two men statement toward each other I think Kim Jong Un comes across as more reasonable and mature of the two. What you think?

P.S. - Must agree with Kim Jong Un. Trump is bully and best way to stop bully is hit them in the mouth.

 

[Targaryen]

Sorry Yonny, I can't agree with you in the slightest here. Kim Jong-Un, like his father and grandfather is a sadistic, insecure and frankly insane person that has actually turn his country into the world's largest prison camp. His own citizens are not only afraid and can be killed for next to nothing and how long do his citizens need to starve? And Un is actually firing missiles over Japan, threatening nuclear assult of not only Guam, and Japan but trying to increase the range of ICBM's so they can hit the North American's west coast.

Trump is unstable, egotistical,in over his head but people are still free, somewhat, people aren't starving and Trump is NOT firing missiles and creating the situation for the response.

I'm no fan of Trump but let's be clear. The North Korean regime is far more terrible then Trump, so let's not pat Un on the back for his own insanity?

 

[Yonny Costopoulis]

Sorry Yonny, I can't agree with you in the slightest here. Kim Jong-Un, like his father and grandfather is a sadistic, insecure and frankly insane person that has actually turn his country into the world's largest prison camp. His own citizens are not only afraid and can be killed for next to nothing and how long do his citizens need to starve? And Un is actually firing missiles over Japan, threatening nuclear assult of not only Guam, and Japan but trying to increase the range of ICBM's so they can hit the North American's west coast.

Trump is unstable, egotistical,in over his head but people are still free, somewhat, people aren't starving and Trump is NOT firing missiles and creating the situation for the response.

I'm no fan of Trump but let's be clear. The North Korean regime is far more terrible then Trump, so let's not pat Un on the back for his own insanity?

Sorry I should make it clearer. I was talking about interaction between Trump and Kim Jong Un since Trump because president. I agree that Kim Jong Un is not good person but in words between the two I remain thinking that Kim Jong Un has appeared more mature of two.

 

[Targaryen]

Sorry I should make it clearer. I was talking about interaction between Trump and Kim Jong Un since Trump because president. I agree that Kim Jong Un is not good person but in words between the two I remain thinking that Kim Jong Un has appeared more mature of two.

Still can't agree here either. The NK has never been afraid of bombast when making a public response and they are still doing so now. Trump's the same.

 

[Ygrene Imref]

If we are going by word of mouth, then Trump is a god, and Un is the devil.

People lie. Countries lie on other countries they want to destroy so that the people will support actions against that country. Un could very well be a decent person, but all the West hears is he is a demon.

No layperson besides perhaps Rodman (and that is a farce) has confirmed this for themselves. I havent, and I know with unlimited resources you can *hire* people to do anything you want them to do.

Countries lie to their citizens all the time and leave THEM to pay the ethical and moral bill of assumption, stereotypes and rumors. We as *people* need to get out of this manipulation umbrella.


With that said, let's judge actions: N. Korea is a "rogue nation" - which means it has no central bank from Western control/World Bank. The West has been trying to dump a debt-based central bank in N. Korea since 1953. It never happened, so a story about Il''s brutality was an opportunity to influency people.

N. Korea has a right to anything it wants to do as a sovereign nation. That means nukes. What most people forget is that the right to action and thought means a connected responsibility and consequence.

We should know the West isn't about the safety of its people because their focus is to keep N. Korea from getting those weapons, not considering the consequences or responsibility on both sides. That should let people know the countrys don't have their people's best interest.

Now, N. Korea has the technology; Trump wants to sanction even more? The nation survived 60+ years on sanctions, and managed to develop technology on par with superpowers. Sanctions won't work. But, the people believe it will (this is a show.)

Un has launched 3 ICBM over Japan... could you imagine if it was Great Britain? This implies 1) Trump is a blowhard with no real plan or gumption for protecting the country, 2) Japan is not a Western priority, 3) a combination of both.


Trump let Un launch 3 missles over Japan, and even get a hydrogen bomb -

North Korea became a nuclear power on the watch of Pres.Trump for both fissile and fusion technology. Likely, Trump will be the first president in American History in which a nuclear detonation befalls the nation or its allies (remember, only America has detonated a nuclear bomb with the purposes of attack.)

 

[rambot]

Also if you go through the history, the kim family very much are bullies

 

[rambot]

If we are going by word of mouth, then Trump is a god, and Un is the devil.

People lie. Countries lie on other countries they want to destroy so that the people will support actions against that country. Un could very well be a decent person, but all the West hears is he is a demon.

No layperson besides perhaps Rodman (and that is a farce) has confirmed this for themselves. I havent, and I know with unlimited resources you can *hire* people to do anything you want them to do.

Countries lie to their citizens all the time and leave THEM to pay the ethical and moral bill of assumption, stereotypes and rumors. We as *people* need to get out of this manipulation umbrella.


With that said, let's judge actions: N. Korea is a "rogue nation" - which means it has no central bank from Western control/World Bank. The West has been trying to dump a debt-based central bank in N. Korea since 1953. It never happened, so a story about Il''s brutality was an opportunity to influency people.

N. Korea has a right to anything it wants to do as a sovereign nation. That means nukes. What most people forget is that the right to action and thought means a connected responsibility and consequence.

We should know the West isn't about the safety of its people because their focus is to keep N. Korea from getting those weapons, not considering the consequences or responsibility on both sides. That should let people know the countrys don't have their people's best interest.

Now, N. Korea has the technology; Trump wants to sanction even more? The nation survived 60+ years on sanctions, and managed to develop technology on par with superpowers. Sanctions won't work. But, the people believe it will (this is a show.)

Un has launched 3 ICBM over Japan... could you imagine if it was Great Britain? This implies 1) Trump is a blowhard with no real plan or gumption for protecting the country, 2) Japan is not a Western priority, 3) a combination of both.


Trump let Un launch 3 missles over Japan, and even get a hydrogen bomb -

North Korea became a nuclear power on the watch of Pres.Trump for both fissile and fusion technology. Likely, Trump will be the first president in American History in which a nuclear detonation befalls the nation or its allies (remember, only America has detonated a nuclear bomb with the purposes of attack.)

1) Jung Un is the mans name. Kim is his family name (backward order with koeean names)
2) its silly to blame the nuclear proliferation of NK on trump. Personally idont think its reasonable to blame it on anyone but nk itself. See the only countries that pursue nukes are nations that want to send the "dont mess with us" message. Kims have been at that message for a long time. In my mind it was foolish to think they would never get it; that they have it now is not trumps fault.
3) nk knows that if they send a nuke, the kim family is dead. Pyoungyang will be razed and nk will no longer exist. They dont want that. Their armies are made of matchsticks and could not support a fighting foece of any kind.
4 there is a reason with all the nonsense and icbms and missiles and skirmishes that none of their neighbours outright attack nk. Because they are weak, and literally not worth the effort. And i would posit, neither japan nor skorea really feel all THAT threatenned by them. It is hilarious how mich more americans feel threatenned by the norks than the average korean (in my experience)

 

[SoldierOfTheKing]

Un has launched 3 ICBM over Japan... could you imagine if it was Great Britain? This implies 1) Trump is a blowhard with no real plan or gumption for protecting the country, 2) Japan is not a Western priority, 3) a combination of both.

Trump let Un launch 3 missles over Japan, and even get a hydrogen bomb

You would have preferred he had attacked North Korea in response to this?

 

[Targaryen]

3) nk knows that if they send a nuke, the kim family is dead. Pyoungyang will be razed and nk will no longer exist. They don't want that. Their armies are made of matchsticks and could not support a fighting force of any kind.

You are forgetting that their major ally is China, that China will help another "communist" country out, especially one it shares a border with, or do you forget the outcome in the Korean War. Also on estimate 25% of the North Korean population with as of 2016, 5,889,000 paramilitary personnel, Which would make them the largest paramilitary group on Earth.

4 there is a reason with all the nonsense and icbms and missiles and skirmishes that none of their neighbours outright attack nk. Because they are weak, and literally not worth the effort. And i would posit, neither japan nor korea really feel all THAT threatened by them. It is hilarious how much more Americans feel threatened by the North than the average korean (in my experience)

In South Korea, it's not so much fear as it is just the normal sense of that something could happen. The 38th parallel border with the North is not the world most dangerous border territory for a reason. Technically, the two countries are still at war. There is concern that something may occur and to say they aren't worried would underscore the UN presence at the South Korean side of the border since the conflict of the Korean conflict gained the armistice on July,27,1953.

Japan is a bit more panicked though as they know far too well what a nuclear threat can do to their country, and they know they don't have the greatest ability to respond themselves. It's a bit of a stretch to say that Japan is less worried about NK then Trump. They are worried in general.

 

[Ygrene Imref]

1) Jung Un is the mans name. Kim is his family name (backward order with koeean names)
2) its silly to blame the nuclear proliferation of NK on trump. Personally idont think its reasonable to blame it on anyone but nk itself. See the only countries that pursue nukes are nations that want to send the "dont mess with us" message. Kims have been at that message for a long time. In my mind it was foolish to think they would never get it; that they have it now is not trumps fault.
3) nk knows that if they send a nuke, the kim family is dead. Pyoungyang will be razed and nk will no longer exist. They dont want that. Their armies are made of matchsticks and could not support a fighting foece of any kind.
4 there is a reason with all the nonsense and icbms and missiles and skirmishes that none of their neighbours outright attack nk. Because they are weak, and literally not worth the effort. And i would posit, neither japan nor skorea really feel all THAT threatenned by them. It is hilarious how mich more americans feel threatenned by the norks than the average korean (in my experience)

You are being too politically pedestrian.

N. Korea is backed by China, and Russia. It is being used to goad America into a proxy war so that even if N. Korea is razed to the ground America and/or their allies will also take significant loss.

I used "Un" represent the colloquial difference between the former and current dictator. I know his name.


And, yes it happened ON Donald Trump's watch, just like 9/11 happened on Bush's presidency, and the OK bombing happened on Clinton''s watch.

You are making the typical American underestimation - no one who has fusion and fission technology is "weak," and even more so if that entity is willing to go down and take whomever with them. N. Korea flew three ICBMs over an American ally - and America just wants to sanction N. Korea.

This is not "nonsense."

 

[Ygrene Imref]

You would have preferred he had attacked North Korea in response to this?

It is amazing you show that video because it confirms what I have been saying all along about Trump - he is a Solntsevskaya Bratva/Mobster wannabe.

"Pay me money for protection, or you are on your own."

Doing absolutely nothing but posturing is no help at all - even a detriment. Do I want to go to nuclear war? No. However, what is being done by your president to make sure Americans don't wake up to a flux of gamma radiation, and utter eradication?

He has toned down his tweeting, so I suppose considering the standards Trump is doing something.

 

[Targaryen]

You are being too politically pedestrian.

Hardly, if anything I'd say you are making statements that conservatives should rightly skewer liberals over. This assumption that caution equals pedestrianism.

And, yes it happened ON Donald Trump's watch, just like 9/11 happened on Bush's presidency, and the OK bombing happened on Clinton''s watch

And NK's aggression also happened under Obama's watch or the Iran hostage crisis started under Carter's watch. That does not equal those particular people being responsible for those events occurring.

You are making the typical American underestimation - no one who has fusion and fission technology is "weak," and even more so if that entity is willing to go down and take whomever with them. N. Korea flew three ICBMs over an American ally - and America just wants to sanction N. Korea.

This is not "nonsense."

Nuclear weapons in the hands of any rogue state is troubling. Hell it's troubling that any nation has these weapons. That does not make them weak, I have absolutely no idea where you are chalking up this nonsense from, which yes it is nonsense.

And it's either sanctions or there is war, which other powers get dragged into,with the threat of nuclear deployment still hanging in the air and suddenly before you know it it's World War III. Sanctions may not work the way we'd like but it's a far better option then what you are suggesting which is a blind aggression that could result in millions of lives ended even if no nuclear devices are set off.

Calm down the far-left nonsense here and look at the fact that this isn't exactly an easy solution to get at.

 

[Ygrene Imref]

Hardly, if anything I'd say you are making statements that conservatives should rightly skewer liberals over. This assumption that caution equals pedestrianism.





And NK's aggression also happened under Obama's watch or the Iran hostage crisis started under Carter's watch. That does not equal those particular people being responsible for those events occurring.



Nuclear weapons in the hands of any rogue state is troubling. Hell it's troubling that any nation has these weapons. That does not make them weak, I have absolutely no idea where you are chalking up this nonsense from, which yes it is nonsense.

And it's either sanctions or there is war, which other powers get dragged into,with the threat of nuclear deployment still hanging in the air and suddenly before you know it it's World War III. Sanctions may not work the way we'd like but it's a far better option then what you are suggesting which is a blind aggression that could result in millions of lives ended even if no nuclear devices are set off.

Calm down the far-left nonsense here and look at the fact that this isn't exactly an easy solution to get at.

I said nothing about partisanship.

This is way beyond partisanship, which is why I said it is political pedestrian thinking in general.


This proxy war going on right now is an example of "nonlinear politics."

 

[Targaryen]

I said nothing about partisanship.

This is way beyond partisanship, which is why I said it is political pedestrian thinking in general.


This proxy war going on right now is an example of "nonlinear politics."

I think rather then "nonlinear politics" or other suggestion, I think you don't really have a clue what you are talking about, specially when reasonings such as the following quote make up your theory.

Trump let Un launch 3 missles over Japan, and even get a hydrogen bomb -

Let? Yes, I'm sure Trump and Japan just let Kin Jong-Un do what NK has the capacity to do.

You make it sound like they are playing phone tag here.

 

[rambot]

You are forgetting that their major ally is China, that China will help another "communist" country out, especially one it shares a border with, or do you forget the outcome in the Korean War. Also on estimate 25% of the North Korean population with as of 2016, 5,889,000 paramilitary personnel, Which would make them the largest paramilitary group on Earth.

1) China is, at BEST a strong trading partner. China is getting annoyed by their constant destabilizing strategies too. China recognizes that North Korea, as close as it might be to a "communist country" (really, really not) and it getting pretty tired of the rhetoric as well (China has been a willing participant in most sanctions that have been suggested or placed against the NORKS).
2) Oh yes. I'm sure the Nork army is large in number. But, as mentioned, they simply do NOT have the resources to support an army like that. I call Norks matchsticks because they are chronically malnurished. Sure they have a big army. But they don't have the food or (really) any other material to support that many people in combat for very long.

In South Korea, it's not so much fear as it is just the normal sense of that something could happen. The 38th parallel border with the North is not the world most dangerous border territory for a reason. Technically, the two countries are still at war. There is concern that something may occur and to say they aren't worried would underscore the UN presence at the South Korean side of the border since the conflict of the Korean conflict gained the armistice on July,27,1953.

It's not that either. I'm telling you, it has been straight up annoyance for decades. Any sense that something could happen now, is by enlarge due to Trump's rhetoric. I lived in South Korea for almost 8 years. I consumed their news and had many discussions with S.Koreans about their attitudes toward North Korea. Older folks (60+) were the ones who showed the greatest concern. But younger demographics thought less and less of them

Japan is a bit more panicked though as they know far too well what a nuclear threat can do to their country, and they know they don't have the greatest ability to respond themselves. It's a bit of a stretch to say that Japan is less worried about NK then Trump. They are worried in general.

Perhaps I wasn't clear. It's not that they are "less worried" about NK. It's that they were able to functionally dismiss the ridiculousness of the Kim regime and have been (again) for decades. HOWEVER, when Trump does not recognize this kind of diplomacy as functional, it destabilizes the region.

 

[dgiharris]

I feel many posters have reading comprehension problems. You aren't arguing that North Korea is better or more reasonable than Trump.

You are simply arguing about Trump vs Kim Jung-Un's public statements

And in this regards, sadly I have to admit you are right.

Trump's public statements in regard to North Korea is more immature than North Korea's statements in regard to the US.

Worse, Trump's statements have goaded North Korea and North Korea has responded to every Trump statement with an escalation that spits in the face of Trump's threat.

Every.

Single.

Time.

and now, on the heels of Trump's UN speech, NK threatens to do a fusion bomb test over the Pacific Ocean.

 

[rambot]

You are being too politically pedestrian.

If I had any idea what that meant, I'd apologize.

N. Korea is backed by China, and Russia. It is being used to goad America into a proxy war so that even if N. Korea is razed to the ground America and/or their allies will also take significant loss.

Oh. Does "politically pedestrian" mean boring? Because I'm gonna say that this theory is essentially conspiratorial in level. It reads like the scariest and most paranoid version of all possible outcomes with little understanding of the mindset of North Korea's dynasty.

I used "Un" represent the colloquial difference between the former and current dictator. I know his name.

There is nothing significant nor colloquial about calling him "Un". Like me referring to you as "Im"...

And, yes it happened ON Donald Trump's watch, just like 9/11 happened on Bush's presidency, and the OK bombing happened on Clinton''s watch.

Clinton I'll grant as valid. But you would be labouring under some strange idea if you think that the Norks went from absolutely no capacity or materials to make any atomic bombs to being able to whip them out in a matter of a few months.

You are making the typical American underestimation - no one who has fusion and fission technology is "weak," and even more so if that entity is willing to go down and take whomever with them. N. Korea flew three ICBMs over an American ally - and America just wants to sanction N. Korea.
This is not "nonsense."

1) I'm not American. 2) Again, NO CONCEPT of the mindset of the Kim dynasty "willing to go down", is the opposite of what they want. 3) So if you would have the ability to loose 1 nuclear weapon before you'd find yourself completely and utterly obliterated, how strong are you....REALLY?

Question:
How likely is it, in your mind, that China wants North Korea to drop a for REAL nuclear bomb on the US or an ally?

 

[Targaryen]

I feel many posters have reading comprehension problems. You aren't arguing that North Korea is better or more reasonable than Trump.

You are simply arguing about Trump vs Kim Jung-Un's public statements

And in this regards, sadly I have to admit you are right.

Trump's public statements in regard to North Korea is more immature than North Korea's statements in regard to the US.

Worse, Trump's statements have goaded North Korea and North Korea has responded to every Trump statement with an escalation that spits in the face of Trump's threat.

Every.

Single.

Time.

and now, on the heels of Trump's UN speech, NK threatens to do a fusion bomb test over the Pacific Ocean.

You forget that NK did the first escalation itself with its ICBM "tests". Trumps responses might be juvenile and have all the tact of a 3rdgradr that got his or her lunch money stolen. But, if it was any other president, they would be required to respond as well. And North Korea's usual responses, well since I've been alive have been fanatical and juvenile for the most part themselves.

This doesn't give Trump or Kim Jong-Un a free pass. Both are acting up badly, which was the point I had made to Yonny earlier in the thread.

 

[dgiharris]

You forget that NK did the first escalation itself with its ICBM "tests". Trumps responses might be juvenile and have all the tact of a 3rdgradr that got his or her lunch money stolen. But, if it was any other president, they would be required to respond as well. And North Korea's usual responses, well since I've been alive have been fanatical and juvenile for the most part themselves.

This doesn't give Trump or Kim Jong-Un a free pass. Both are acting up badly, which was the point I had made to Yonny earlier in the thread.

If you are asked the question:
Which mountain is bigger Everest of Fuji you wouldn't answer "Well, both are big mountains..."

Yes, both leaders make horrifically bad statements but which one's statements are worse...

and sadly, Trump's statements are more juvenile, amateurish, and problematic.

In the world of big business, when we are dealing with another country/culture we hire cultural and protocol experts. Those experts brief us on things we can and cannot say, taboo topics, mannerisms, unexpected insults, etc etc.

Trump apparently has never heard of that. In Asian cultures, pride, honor, and saving face have an importance that I don't think we truly comprehend in the West. Trump is backing Kim Jung-un into a corner and giving Kim Jung-Un no face saving outs.

This is an elementary mistake which brings about 2 possibilities.
#1) Trump is so ignorant that he is unaware that he is making things worse or...
#2) Trump is not ignorant and knows exactly what he is doing and is purposefully instigating a military conflict

The problem I have is I literally can not tell which.

North Korea is an unstable country with a dictator who has nuclear weapons and has an Eastern Philosophy mindset. Why on Earth you would want to back him into a corner is beyond me.

The last big problem I have with this argument is I find that most Trump supporters can't help but think of this whole affair from a Western mindset. This is exactly why we lost the Vietnam war.

To a Western Mindset, we tend to regard conflicts like a football game with a score board. We say, "Hey, look we have more tanks, planes, and ships... we blew up more of your stuff than you did ours... therefore we are "winning" the conflict"
Eastern Mindset doesn't think like that. They see conflicts as a battle of wills and as long as they make you back down then it doesn't matter how much stuff they've lost, they will regard it as a win.

What I fear many Trumpers do not understand is that this situation is a Kobayashi Maru, it is an "unwinnable" situation. There is no way the US can win this conflict with North Korea. We can't invade them, we can't preemptively strike them, we can't bomb them, we can't hit them with a nuke "unless" they attack our allies first and they just aren't going to do that.

What they are going to do is throw egg on our face over and over again which is what they have been doing.

Every time Trump tweets, they respond with an action that humiliates Trump. Trump doubles down and NK does it again... and again... and again...

 

[rambot]

If you are asked the question:
Which mountain is bigger Everest of Fuji you wouldn't answer "Well, both are big mountains..."

Yes, both leaders make horrifically bad statements but which one's statements are worse...

and sadly, Trump's statements are more juvenile, amateurish, and problematic.

In the world of big business, when we are dealing with another country/culture we hire cultural and protocol experts. Those experts brief us on things we can and cannot say, taboo topics, mannerisms, unexpected insults, etc etc.

Trump apparently has never heard of that. In Asian cultures, pride, honor, and saving face have an importance that I don't think we truly comprehend in the West. Trump is backing Kim Jung-un into a corner and giving Kim Jung-Un no face saving outs.

This is an elementary mistake which brings about 2 possibilities.
#1) Trump is so ignorant that he is unaware that he is making things worse or...
#2) Trump is not ignorant and knows exactly what he is doing and is purposefully instigating a military conflict

The problem I have is I literally can not tell which.

North Korea is an unstable country with a dictator who has nuclear weapons and has an Eastern Philosophy mindset. Why on Earth you would want to back him into a corner is beyond me.

The last big problem I have with this argument is I find that most Trump supporters can't help but think of this whole affair from a Western mindset. This is exactly why we lost the Vietnam war.

To a Western Mindset, we tend to regard conflicts like a football game with a score board. We say, "Hey, look we have more tanks, planes, and ships... we blew up more of your stuff than you did ours... therefore we are "winning" the conflict"
Eastern Mindset doesn't think like that. They see conflicts as a battle of wills and as long as they make you back down then it doesn't matter how much stuff they've lost, they will regard it as a win.

What I fear many Trumpers do not understand is that this situation is a Kobayashi Maru, it is an "unwinnable" situation. There is no way the US can win this conflict with North Korea. We can't invade them, we can't preemptively strike them, we can't bomb them, we can't hit them with a nuke "unless" they attack our allies first and they just aren't going to do that.

What they are going to do is throw egg on our face over and over again which is what they have been doing.

Every time Trump tweets, they respond with an action that humiliates Trump. Trump doubles down and NK does it again... and again... and again...

I think the issue is that the Kim dynasty has been talking the way Trump has for decades and so we are desensitized to its lunacy. Essentially, when looking at their statements, I'd say their comments at each other are literally, almost interchangeable.