Killing vs murder (Mature discussion)

[Mynamechef]

Is it ever "okay" to kill someone. Example situation:

You are a (christain) police officer, and are surveying a public event. You see a man take off what he is wearing on top (a jacket or whatever), and reveals he has explosives attached to a vest, he yells some terrorist thing, and goes to pull on a string (that would blow up and kill everyone around), but you shoot him dead before he does. Are you in the wrong?

The guy was going to die whether you took action or not, but instead of him taking his life and many others, you took his life.

There are times when people kill to protect the innocent in the bible, but from what I could find, only the old testament.

 

[Winken]

That's where Civil Law comes in, defined by Federal, State, and Local divisions of the legislative system. If the police officer was not allowed to shoot, law would contain no provisions for its enforcement.

It would be wonderful if we all behaved as Jesus did, but we don't.

 

[football5680]

Yes. It is permissible to kill when carrying out a death sentence, in war or in situations like the one you described.

St. Augustine
The same divine authority that forbids the killing of a human being establishes certain exceptions, as when God authorizes killing by a general law or when He gives an explicit commission to an individual for a limited time.

The agent who executes the killing does not commit homicide; he is an instrument as is the sword with which he cuts. Therefore, it is in no way contrary to the commandment, 'Thou shalt not kill' to wage war at God's bidding, or for the representatives of public authority to put criminals to death, according to the law, that is, the will of the most just reason.

 

[timewerx]

There are times when people kill to protect the innocent in the bible, but from what I could find, only the old testament.

There's actually a verse in the New Testament that could justify killing of an evil person if you care to examine its older Greek translation.

The information I gathered below is the highly regarded Strong's Concordance of Greek and also Thayer's transliteration of Greek in the New Testament.

It may surprise many Christians that the "devil" isn't always a spirit entity but can also be a person if they meet certain qualities. Why Jesus called Peter "satan" is not because there's an evil spirit with him but because he is acting in opposition of God's Will. Read below:

James 4:7
Submit yourselves, then, to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.

Resist - ἀνθίστημι -
436 /anthístēmi ("oppose fully") means to forcefully declare one's personal conviction (where they unswervingly stand); to keep one's possession; ardently withstand, without giving up (letting go).

[436 (anthístēmi) was a military term in classical Greek (used by Thucydides, etc.) meaning "to strongly resist an opponent" ("take a firm stand against").]

Devil - διάβολος - 1228 (diabolos) in secular Greek means "backbiter," i.e. an accuser, calumniator (slanderer). 1228 (diábolos) is literally someone who "casts through," i.e. making charges that bring down (destroy). Satan is used by God in this plan – as a predictable wind-up toy, playing out his evil nature.]
2) (Thayer) metaphorically applied to a man who, by opposing the cause of God, may be said to act the part of the devil or to side with him

Source: biblehub.com, laparola.net


You don't just stand there like a vegetable with a smile and tell them that "Jesus loves you" when someone is ready to die for their false beliefs and falsely accuse you as infidel. You actually fight! Bring them hell!
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[Godlovesmetwo]

You are a (christain) police officer, and are surveying a public event. You see a man take off what he is wearing on top (a jacket or whatever), and reveals he has explosives attached to a vest, he yells some terrorist thing, and goes to pull on a string (that would blow up and kill everyone around), but you shoot him dead before he does. Are you in the wrong?

Just a policeman doing his job in my opinion. You wouldn't become a police officer unless you were prepared to kill someone, to protect yourself or the community.

 

[noam burde]

we are not commanded anywhere not to kill. its just usually the wrong thing to do.
the word translated as "you will kill" (תרצח) in the commandment of "don't kill" of the 10 commandments.
means "you will murder".
Google Translate

Thou shalt not kill - Wikipedia

 

[SkyWriting]

You are a (christain) police officer, and are surveying a public event. You see a man take off what he is wearing on top (a jacket or whatever), and reveals he has explosives attached to a vest, he yells some terrorist thing, and goes to pull on a string (that would blow up and kill everyone around), but you shoot him dead before he does. Are you in the wrong?

For whatever reason, yelling "God is good!' wearing weird stuff, and pulling strings are all legal.
Shooting somebody is not. You might be acquitted of charges if it is your job to shoot
terrorists, but visual profiling is not allowed for most cases. People do wear weird stuff.

 

[Cuddles333]

I think this is the most problematic subject in Christianity. Can a Christian kill in self-defense?
We tend to be able to rationalize it in our minds if it is a personal situation. However, in the aggregate it seems questionable. Such as when near the end of WWII a group of Nazi generals tried to assassinate Hitler by placing a suitcase bomb under the planning table. If this had been done (and was successful) before he started wholesale killing, would God had been pleased?
It has been said that war is man's inhumanity to man. Things that occur in war are the most violent, ugly, and unnatural in the world and possibly the universe. Does a Christian belong in combat? I don't think so.

 

[Soyeong]

Is it ever "okay" to kill someone. Example situation:

You are a (christain) police officer, and are surveying a public event. You see a man take off what he is wearing on top (a jacket or whatever), and reveals he has explosives attached to a vest, he yells some terrorist thing, and goes to pull on a string (that would blow up and kill everyone around), but you shoot him dead before he does. Are you in the wrong?

The guy was going to die whether you took action or not, but instead of him taking his life and many others, you took his life.

There are times when people kill to protect the innocent in the bible, but from what I could find, only the old testament.

The difference between killing and murder is that murder is lawful killing. Killing someone in self-defence is not unlawful killing, so it is not murder.

 

[Dave-W]

There are times when people kill to protect the innocent in the bible, but from what I could find, only the old testament.

Paul wrote this about civil law enforcement authorities:

Romans 13:4
for it is a minister of God to you for good. But if you do what is evil, be afraid; for it does not bear the sword for nothing; for it is a minister of God, an avenger who brings wrath on the one who practices evil.

"bear the sword" refers to using deadly force.

 

[Walsinghsm Way]

Baruch Hashem, Mynamechef!

Is it ever "okay" to kill someone. Example situation:

Thank you for the opportunity to work out the distinction between "killing" and "murder". It is not a topic I have been able to think through systematically previously other than to note that there is a moral, and legal difference between the two, even though both bear on the taking of a human life.

As other posters have pointed out, and research on blogs and sermons confirm, not to mention reference materials like Kittle's Theological Dictionary of the New Testament (tr. from the German), there are real distinctions between these words . Killing is either allowed or commanded by Divine or positive law, whereas murder is the taking into one's own hands the right of justice, of judgement, or of law, even if the murderer believes he is thus achieving a good end.

At the same time, as believers we are not to wage war as the world does, with worldly weapons, but we are to wage spiritual war against the principalities and powers of the air with spiritual weapons.

And this includes praying for our enemies and seeking to turn their hearts, amd not to make them dead, no matter the licitness of such an action.

There are times when people kill to protect the innocent in the bible, but from what I could find, only the old testament.

There were definitely situations within the Old Covenant, quite apart from divinely sanctioned or commanded wars against alien peoples (amd their gods) where killing happened, that does not mean we are to go around imitating these efforts.

The highest good is to live in peace insofar as far as it depends on us. So, even in those cases where killing was justified, I think we have failed, still "missed the mark", as it were, and not lived up to the highest good that God has for us when we allow a killing.

 

[SteveIndy]

Is it ever "okay" to kill someone. Example situation:

You are a (christain) police officer, and are surveying a public event. You see a man take off what he is wearing on top (a jacket or whatever), and reveals he has explosives attached to a vest, he yells some terrorist thing, and goes to pull on a string (that would blow up and kill everyone around), but you shoot him dead before he does. Are you in the wrong?

The guy was going to die whether you took action or not, but instead of him taking his life and many others, you took his life.

There are times when people kill to protect the innocent in the bible, but from what I could find, only the old testament.

The officer is not a Christian in the Biblical sense because he has sworn to obey another master other than Christ and he is ready to commit murder. If he is a servant of the world, which he is by his own mouth, then what he is doing is right. God had ordained the governments of the world to be ruled by men of the world for the maintenance of the world's order. Christians are not of this world and have sworn their allegiance to the constitution and King of that Kingdom, and that King says, "Do not commit murder."

 

[SteveIndy]

And He (Jesus Christ) said to them (his twelve disciples), "When I sent you (on missions) without money bag, knapsack, and sandals, did you lack anything? . . . But now . . . he who has no sword, let him sell his garmentand buy one . . . For the things concerning Me have an end."

So they (the disciples) said, "Lord, look, here are two swords." And He said to them, "It is enough" (Luke 22:35 - 38, NKJV)

First, for the biblical literalists this passage contradicts the following:

". . . for all those who take up the sword shall perish by the sword" (Matthew 26:52, NASB).

'Put your sword back in its place,' Jesus said to him . . . (Matthew 26:52, NIV)

I will let the gentle literalists struggle over those passages while I recognize the need for both the disciples and modern day disciples to protect themselves against those who would do them harm.

This first passage also is one of the foundation stones of Just War Theory for the past 800 years or so.

There is no problem with the Luke quote above, Jesus explains His meaning in the very same verse. It was to fulfill prophecy, that He would be accounted a transgressor. In the verses that follow we find Jesus in the garden being arrested and Peter cutting off the ear of the High Priest's servant, where is the difficulty? After the fulfillment of this prophecy, we never again hear of the Apostles using or advising the use of weapons for self-defense. For the better part of 300 years following those closest to the writing of the New Testament understood the way of Christ that they were to follow included no self-defense. Augustine, like most Christians, was no literalist and therefore found it easy to change the plain sense of the written word to pacify those to whom he was aligned, i.e. Constantin's government. It is no different today.

 

[SkyWriting]

I think this is the most problematic subject in Christianity. Can a Christian kill in self-defense?
We tend to be able to rationalize it in our minds if it is a personal situation. However, in the aggregate it seems questionable. Such as when near the end of WWII a group of Nazi generals tried to assassinate Hitler by placing a suitcase bomb under the planning table. If this had been done (and was successful) before he started wholesale killing, would God had been pleased?
It has been said that war is man's inhumanity to man. Things that occur in war are the most violent, ugly, and unnatural in the world and possibly the universe. Does a Christian belong in combat? I don't think so.

I would say that Peace is unnatural. It's hard work.
God controls even the creation of suitcases.

 

[curiouskay]

First of all, ISIS claims responsibility for any mass killing whether they were involved or not, who can prove them wrong in the claim.

Secondly, no-one commits suicide because they dislike people. A more plausible reason is that some family members of the bomber were kidnaped. The bomber is shown photos of one of his children dead and warned, either you take this vest and blow yourself and others up or we will murder your other children as well. If you do what we say they will be set free, hehe lol.

What would you do?

 

[Soyeong]

First of all, ISIS claims responsibility for any mass killing whether they were involved or not, who can prove them wrong in the claim.

Secondly, no-one commits suicide because they dislike people. A more plausible reason is that some family members of the bomber were kidnaped. The bomber is shown photos of one of his children dead and warned, either you take this vest and blow yourself and others up or we will murder your other children as well. If you do what we say they will be set free, hehe lol.

What would you do?

I think that you underestimate the influence that people can have on children by teaching them to hate from a young age.

 

[curiouskay]

I think that you underestimate the influence that people can have on children.,.,.,.

The child isn't told that they are going to die. Most likely the child is told that he or she will go to heaven and all his or her friends will be there along with the loved ones that he/she cared about & to top this off you will get all the candy you could possibly want

 

[curiouskay]

Just do this one thing for us & the gifts for you will be in-ending hehe

 

[curiouskay]

un-ending