Killing unborn babies -- is it a moral question or just politics?

BobRyan

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Thomas White

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That's one question. I don't think it is THE question for everyone though. For instance, as far as I am concerned at conception a unique new being has come into existence that did not exist previously. Some people will say that new being is not a person. They may be correct, but I am not willing to take the chance they are incorrect because if they are incorrect and I decide to take that life I would be killing a person. If they are correct and I do not kill that non person no harm has been done. I prefer the path that leads to me not possibly doing harm. Another example of someone having a different THE question is the argument that unless a being is self aware they are not a person even if they are a born baby. That argument has seriously been put forward in the past in threads on CF so I do not want to hear anyone saying the "no one wants to allow babies to be killed after they are born." because some people would be fine with allowing that.

I've never heard anyone make the argument that a lack self-awareness means someone is not a human. Just for the record, that is not what most pro-choice Christians argue. They argue that until the fetus sufficiently develops it does not have the capability to sustain independent life, therefore it is not yet a living human. Most people will not argue that abortion should be allowed after the first trimester unless the life of the mother is at stake.
 
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Thomas White

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In 2016, 27.9% of all abortions were performed by early medical abortion (a nonsurgical abortion at ≤8 weeks’ gestation),

So then 72.1% are done at > 8 weeks.

human gestation 8 weeks old - Bing images

Not "just a bunch of chromosomes" at that point.

Most pro-choice Christians argue that until the fetus sufficiently develops it does not have the capability to sustain independent life, therefore it is not yet a living human. Most Christians will not argue that abortion should be allowed after the first trimester unless the life of the mother is in danger.
 
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BobRyan

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Of course, I see both sides of the equation. People can be compared to worms in the dirt or rats in your garbage. They are all alive and they are all supposed to die eventually so who cares if I kill this person here or that worm over there. Me being 32 now and been through having to live under the same roof with a countless number of men of whom are so lost when it comes to understanding how one should be and how they actually are that they don't even deserve to be breathing or even deserved to be alive to begin with. However, they can be put to use to benefit us. Mow our yards, take out our garbage and cook for us. But inevitably, besides their ability to reproduce(which I would be against any of them reproducing) they are worthless and only cause problems for the ones of whom do deserve life.

1. IS there such a thing as "the gospel" in your world view?
2. Does God only send the Gospel invitation to those you put in "class A"???
3. Paul (as Saul) declared himself to be the "worst of the worst" at one time "Chief of sinners" -- is that "Class C"? in your world view?
4. IS there even a "need" to put someone in God's chair to declare entire groups of people "unworthy of life"?
 
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grasping the after wind

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I've never heard anyone make the argument that a lack self-awareness means someone is not a human. Just for the record, that is not what most pro-choice Christians argue. They argue that until the fetus sufficiently develops it does not have the capability to sustain independent life, therefore it is not yet a living human. Most people will not argue that abortion should be allowed after the first trimester unless the life of the mother is at stake.

I understand there are not many making the self awareness argument but they do exist so saying no one is for allowing babies to be killed after they are born is incorrect. Additionally, arguments that most people don't make now may be arguments that a majority might make 10 years from now so not addressing the argument now would be irresponsible. Semantically speaking The ability to sustain independent life does not in reality happen until a person has the means of acquiring the basic needs to survive without being absolutely dependent upon others to provide one with those needs. Seen that way, born babies certainly cannot sustain independent life but are completely dependent upon others to survive. If we use the term "sustain independent life" we give people an excuse to interpret that phrase exactly as it is written when it becomes convenient to do so. It may not be the way you and many others interpret it today but again 10 years can change many things.
 
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BobRyan

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Most pro-choice Christians argue that until the fetus sufficiently develops it does not have the capability to sustain independent life, therefore it is not yet a living human. Most Christians will not argue that abortion should be allowed after the first trimester unless the life of the mother is in danger.

The first trimester - is 13 weeks

That's 5 weeks after this --

embryo-9.png


==================================================
The question is when do they become babies and not a bunch of chromosomes?

In 2016, 27.9% of all abortions were performed by early medical abortion (a nonsurgical abortion at ≤8 weeks’ gestation),

So then 72.1% are done at > 8 weeks.

human gestation 8 weeks old - Bing images

Not "just a bunch of chromosomes" at that point.
 
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Thomas White

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The first trimester - is 13 weeks

That's 5 weeks after this --

embryo-9.png


==================================================


In 2016, 27.9% of all abortions were performed by early medical abortion (a nonsurgical abortion at ≤8 weeks’ gestation),

So then 72.1% are done at > 8 weeks.

human gestation 8 weeks old - Bing images

Not "just a bunch of chromosomes" at that point.

That is a picture that's not telling the full story. It doesn't say that the brain, spinal cord, and most of the internal organs have not progressed beyond initial development. The fetus cannot survive or think on it's own at this point. Mortality rate is relatively high. You are prescribing emotion to your argument, not science.
 
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sunlover1

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Jeremiah 17:10
“I the Lord search the heart and test the mind, to give every man according to his ways, according to the fruit of his deeds.”


Scripture says my higher bar looks different from yours:

350Wx350H-5242375-1119-px.jpg


Ezekiel 36:26
And I will give you a new heart, and a new spirit I will put within you. And I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh.

Proverbs 21:2
Every way of a man is right in his own eyes, but the Lord weighs the heart.

Jeremiah 31
But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, declares the Lord: I will put my law within them, and I will write it on their hearts.
and what was your point?
Or were we talking about red fishies of the herring kind?
 
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I've never heard anyone make the argument that a lack self-awareness means someone is not a human.

You don't want to fall asleep around such people.
 
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Jaqui Francis

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The constitution does trump the Bible. We have a separation of church and state and laws based on religion cannot be made. You may want laws on the Bible but someone else will want laws based on the Quran or the Bagvagita. You have to not allow any because you can't allow them all. They all contradict eachother. In a perfect world where's there's no rape, there's no genetic disorders, theres no dumb teens getting pregnant we wouldn't need abortion, and trust me. I feel the same way you do. I hate abortion and it's so sad but it's not my choice. I will never have one, but tons of other people will. I can't stop them and you can't stop them either. They have to deal with their own actions themselves.
 
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BobRyan

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The constitution does trump the Bible. We have a separation of church and state and laws based on religion cannot be made.

This is a Christian forum - not a nation or a political stage. The question for Christians no matter what nation they live in - is the same -- is murder simply a matter of "politics" or is it actually a moral question that the Bible addresses.

You may want laws on the Bible but someone else will want laws based on the Quran or the Bagvagita.

True. But this is a Christian forum and we are not "divided" on whether the God of the Bible is Mohammed's Allah, or whether it is one of the 3 million Hindu deities. If you notice the discussion that is not the issue at stake.

One could then say "yes... but what if you are an atheist? In that case all religions are on the same level playing field of pure-nonsense at the very start". And I grant you that in that case it is probably a more confusing issue with less clarity.

In the same way slavery was a moral issues in the 1800's where "right to property, and freedom of choice" was being opposed to "the value of human life".

Slavery was (and still is) a huge problem in Islamic countries

from: History of slavery in the Muslim world - Wikipedia
"The Arab slave trade was most active in West Asia, North Africa, and Southeast Africa. In the early 20th century (post-World War I), slavery was gradually outlawed and suppressed in Muslim lands, largely due to pressure exerted by Western nations such as Britain and France.[17] Slavery in the Ottoman Empire was abolished in 1924 when the new Turkish Constitution disbanded the Imperial Harem and made the last concubines and eunuchs free citizens of the newly proclaimed republic.[18] Slavery in Iran was abolished in 1929. Among the last states to abolish slavery were Saudi Arabia and Yemen, which abolished slavery in 1962 under pressure from Britain; Oman in 1970; and Mauritania in 1905, 1981, and again in August 2007.[19] However, slavery claiming the sanction of Islam is documented at present in the predominantly Islamic countries of the Sahel,[20][21] and is also practiced in territories controlled by Islamist rebel groups. It is also practiced in countries like in Libya and Mauritania despite being outlawed."

So "yeah" the value-of-human life issue is still a topic of hot debate and confusion ... only moderated to some extent by outside pressure from western civilizations when it comes to your suggestion that Islam might have a different view on our topic regarding the value of human life.


You have to not allow any because you can't allow them all.

Nothing in the American Constitution says "all world religions are correct.. are equally correct". Our government allows for a paid (paid via taxes) pastor opening each session of congress with prayer. Our House chamber has on its walls the full facing portait of Moses in the center with all other historic figures related to law - only having side-views. Moses in the center because he was given the Law by God - and all others just made-it-up.

So then all the others facing along a line that points to Moses at the center.

The 23 marble relief portraits over the gallery doors of the House Chamber

montage.jpg


So while this nation is not founded as "a theocracy" - the nation is a Christian nation.

===================================
I hate abortion and it's so sad but it's not my choice. I will never have one, but tons of other people will. I can't stop them and you can't stop them either. They have to deal with their own actions themselves.

If all Christians would stand up and admit it is sin - that it is murder - that it does not respect that value of human life any more than slavery did. That it 'did not matter' if a slave owner "felt differently" -- the matter is the same when it comes to the value of human life.

Just drawing a line between right and wrong, sin vs righteousness - would provide somewhat of a moral compass for society no matter that a lot of people might still be confused even with a moral compass in the form of a statement identifying it as a sin , a crime against mankind etc that may or may not also have civil laws governing it in your nation but still the fact of whether it is sin or not is clear.

=============================
America - founded as a "Christian nation".

from: Proof That America Was Founded As A Christian Nation – International Cops for Christ

The Paris Peace Treaty was the document which formally ended the Revolution and granted the United States independence from Great Britain. In a real sense, the United States formally became a nation on September 3, 1783.

When the United States became a nation, it was done in the “name of the most holy and undivided Trinity.” The preamble to this Treat states it is based upon the “Holy and undivided Trinity.” The concept of the holy Trinity is unique to Christianity. This statement means the United States was founded on the Christian faith. The complete Preamble follows:

“In the name of the most holy and undivided Trinity”

The Treaty then ends just like the Constitution with a statement it is being signed in the “Year of our Lord.” The witnesses representing the United States were John Adams, Benjamin Franklin, John Jay and D. Hartley. The section in part follows:
“In witness whereof we the undersigned, their ministers plenipotentiary, have in their name and in virtue of our full powers, signed with our hands the present definitive treaty and caused the seals of our arms to be affixed thereto.Done at Paris, this third day of September in the year of our Lord, one thousand seven hundred and eighty-three”

Treaty of Paris 1783 ***
 
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The constitution does trump the Bible.

LOL!

The Constitution has no validity, except that it is built on the DOI. The DOI is built on the fact that we are endowed with unalienable rights by our creator YHWH. The Constitution limits the powers that we 'The People' granted to our government, in order to protect our rights, we were endowed with by our creator, YHWH.
 
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BobRyan

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You may want laws on the Bible but someone else will want laws based on the Quran or the Bagvagita. You have to not allow any because you can't allow them all.

The United States Constitution does mention God. In Article VII, the Constitution states:

Done in Convention by the Unanimous Consent of the States present the Seventeenth Day of September in the Year of our Lord one thousand seven hundred and Eighty seven and of the Independence of the United States of America the twelfth….
=========================================

Question -- in which religion is the phrase "in the Year of our Lord one thousand seven hundred and Eighty seven" allowed? Is it Christianity? Judaism, Islam, Hinduism or Buddhism ??
 
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BobRyan

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That is a picture that's not telling the full story. It doesn't say that the brain, spinal cord, and most of the internal organs have not progressed beyond initial development. The fetus cannot survive or think on it's own at this point.

The baby is irrefutably "human" at this point of 8 weeks and the core issue is the "value of human life".

Your statement "think on its own" is an emotional statement - you don't know what the brain is doing at that point.

==============================

from : -- Baby Brain Development

Week 7 The neurons in this week are multiplying at a rapid rate, thus, the brain is growing at a rapid rate. Its formation is nearing completion.

Week 8 By the eighth week, the head is quite large when compared to the rest of the body. The baby brain development activities reach a new high when there is further development of the hind brain, which is the center responsible for regulating vital activities, like the heartbeat, breathing rate, etc.
Read more at iBuzzle: Baby Brain Development
 
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Question -- in which religion is the phrase "in the Year of our Lord one thousand seven hundred and Eighty seven" allowed? Is it Christianity? Judaism, Islam, Hinduism or Buddhism ??

Good stuff.

Have you seen H. RES. 397?

Text - H.Res.397
 
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Jaqui Francis

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This is a Christian forum - not a nation or a political stage. The question for Christians no matter what nation they live in - is the same -- is murder simply a matter of "politics" or is it actually a moral question that the Bible addresses.



True. But this is a Christian forum and we are not "divided" on whether the God of the Bible is Mohammed's Allah, or whether it is one of the 3 million Hindu deities. If you notice the discussion that is not the issue at stake.

One could then say "yes... but what if you are an atheist? In that case all religions are on the same level playing field of pure-nonsense at the very start". And I grant you that in that case it is probably a more confusing issue with less clarity.

In the same way slavery was a moral issues in the 1800's where "right to property, and freedom of choice" was being opposed to "the value of human life".

Slavery was (and still is) a huge problem in Islamic countries

from: History of slavery in the Muslim world - Wikipedia
"The Arab slave trade was most active in West Asia, North Africa, and Southeast Africa. In the early 20th century (post-World War I), slavery was gradually outlawed and suppressed in Muslim lands, largely due to pressure exerted by Western nations such as Britain and France.[17] Slavery in the Ottoman Empire was abolished in 1924 when the new Turkish Constitution disbanded the Imperial Harem and made the last concubines and eunuchs free citizens of the newly proclaimed republic.[18] Slavery in Iran was abolished in 1929. Among the last states to abolish slavery were Saudi Arabia and Yemen, which abolished slavery in 1962 under pressure from Britain; Oman in 1970; and Mauritania in 1905, 1981, and again in August 2007.[19] However, slavery claiming the sanction of Islam is documented at present in the predominantly Islamic countries of the Sahel,[20][21] and is also practiced in territories controlled by Islamist rebel groups. It is also practiced in countries like in Libya and Mauritania despite being outlawed."

So "yeah" the value-of-human life issue is still a topic of hot debate and confusion ... only moderated to some extent by outside pressure from western civilizations when it comes to your suggestion that Islam might have a different view on our topic regarding the value of human life.




Nothing in the American Constitution says "all world religions are correct.. are equally correct". Our government allows for a paid (paid via taxes) pastor opening each session of congress with prayer. Our House chamber has on its walls the full facing portait of Moses in the center with all other historic figures related to law - only having side-views. Moses in the center because he was given the Law by God - and all others just made-it-up.

So then all the others facing along a line that points to Moses at the center.

The 23 marble relief portraits over the gallery doors of the House Chamber

montage.jpg


So while this nation is not founded as "a theocracy" - the nation is a Christian nation.

===================================


If all Christians would stand up and admit it is sin - that it is murder - that it does not respect that value of human life any more than slavery did. That it 'did not matter' if a slave owner "felt differently" -- the matter is the same when it comes to the value of human life.

Just drawing a line between right and wrong, sin vs righteousness - would provide somewhat of a moral compass for society no matter that a lot of people might still be confused even with a moral compass in the form of a statement identifying it as a sin , a crime against mankind etc that may or may not also have civil laws governing it in your nation but still the fact of whether it is sin or not is clear.

=============================
America - founded as a "Christian nation".

from: Proof That America Was Founded As A Christian Nation – International Cops for Christ

The Paris Peace Treaty was the document which formally ended the Revolution and granted the United States independence from Great Britain. In a real sense, the United States formally became a nation on September 3, 1783.

When the United States became a nation, it was done in the “name of the most holy and undivided Trinity.” The preamble to this Treat states it is based upon the “Holy and undivided Trinity.” The concept of the holy Trinity is unique to Christianity. This statement means the United States was founded on the Christian faith. The complete Preamble follows:

“In the name of the most holy and undivided Trinity”

The Treaty then ends just like the Constitution with a statement it is being signed in the “Year of our Lord.” The witnesses representing the United States were John Adams, Benjamin Franklin, John Jay and D. Hartley. The section in part follows:
“In witness whereof we the undersigned, their ministers plenipotentiary, have in their name and in virtue of our full powers, signed with our hands the present definitive treaty and caused the seals of our arms to be affixed thereto.Done at Paris, this third day of September in the year of our Lord, one thousand seven hundred and eighty-three”

Treaty of Paris 1783 ***

Few questions.

Is abortion wrong in every case?
Are all reasons for abortion bad?
Should abortion for anyone be legal?
 
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