Keys to Understanding Apocalyptic Language

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GW

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The best way to understand apocalyptic writing is to study the many comings of God during the Old Testament times and see how that language is used in past situations. Once we see the way the prophets spoke of God's comings down during the Old Testament times, we are better equipped to think about how God comes all throughout history and even at the end of time. Study the following comings of God in history and think about the way in which the prophets use familiar doom language in each case:


God Comes in a Cloud Against Ancient Egypt - 700s BC
Behold, Yahweh rides on a swift cloud, and comes to Egypt: and the idols of Egypt shall tremble at his presence; and the heart of Egypt shall melt in the midst of it. I will stir up the Egyptians against the Egyptians (Isaiah 19:1-2)


God Comes to End Saul's Kingdom - 1000 BC
Then the earth shook and quaked, the foundations of heaven were trembling and were shaken, because He was angry. Smoke went up out of His nostrils, fire from His mouth devoured; coals were kindled by it. He bowed the heavens also, and came down with thick darkness under His feet. And He rode on a cherub and flew; And He appeared on the wings of the wind. And He made darkness canopies around Him, a mass of waters, thick clouds of the sky. From the brightness before Him coals of fire were kindled. The LORD thundered from heaven, and the Most High uttered His voice. And He sent out arrows, and scattered them, Lightning, and routed them. Then the channels of the sea appeared, the foundations of the world were laid bare by the rebuke of the LORD, at the blast of the breath of His nostrils. (2 Sam 22:8-16)


God Comes to Judge Nineveh - 600s BC
The LORD takes vengeance on His adversaries, and He reserves wrath for His enemies...In whirlwind and storm is His way, and clouds are the dust beneath His feet. He rebukes the sea and makes it dry; He dries up all the rivers. Bashan and Carmel wither; The blossoms of Lebanon wither. Mountains quake because of Him and the hills dissolve; Indeed the earth is upheaved by His presence, the world and all the inhabitants in it. (Nahum 1:2-5)


God Comes to Judge Egypt in the Time of Nebuchadnezzar - 600s BC
The day is near, even the day of the LORD is near; It will be a day of clouds, a time of doom for the nations. A sword will come upon Egypt, and anguish will be in Ethiopia; When the slain fall in Egypt...And they will know that I am the LORD, when I set a fire in Egypt...I will also make the hordes of Egypt cease by the hand of Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon. He and his people with him, the most ruthless of the nations, will be brought in to destroy the land; and they will draw their swords against Egypt and fill the land with the slain. (Ezekiel 30:3-4,8, 10-11)


God Comes to Judge Israel at the Time of the Exile - 500s BC
As I live, says the Lord Yahweh, surely with a mighty hand, and with an outstretched arm, and with wrath poured out, will I be king over you: and I will bring you out from the peoples, and will gather you out of the countries in which you are scattered, with a mighty hand, and with an outstretched arm, and with wrath poured out; and I will bring you into the wilderness of the peoples, and there will I enter into judgment with you face to face...Hear the word of Yahweh: Thus says the Lord Yahweh, Behold, I will kindle a fire in you, and it shall devour every green tree in you, and every dry tree: the flaming flame shall not be quenched, and all faces from the south to the north shall be burnt thereby. All flesh shall see that I, Yahweh, have kindled it...Thus says Yahweh: Behold, I am against you, and will draw forth my sword out of its sheath, and will cut off from you the righteous and the wicked. Seeing then that I will cut off from you the righteous and the wicked, therefore shall my sword go forth out of its sheath against all flesh from the south to the north: and all flesh shall know that I, Yahweh, have drawn forth my sword out of its sheath (Ez 20:33-35,47-48; 21:3-5)


God Comes To Judge Ancient Babylon Using the Medes - 500s BC
Wail, for the day of the LORD is near; it will come like destruction from the Almighty! Therefore all hands will be feeble, and every human heart will melt, and they will be dismayed. Pangs and agony will seize them; they will be in anguish like a woman in labor. They will look aghast at one another; their faces will be aflame. See, the day of the LORD comes, cruel, with wrath and fierce anger, to make the earth a desolation, and to destroy its sinners from it. For the stars of the heavens and their constellations will not give their light; the sun will be dark at its rising, and the moon will not shed its light. I will punish the world for its evil, and the wicked for their iniquity...Therefore I will make the heavens tremble, and the earth will be shaken out of its place, at the wrath of the LORD of hosts in the day of his fierce anger. Like a hunted gazelle, or like sheep with no one to gather them, all will turn to their own people, and all will flee to their own lands. Whoever is found will be thrust through, and whoever is caught will fall by the sword. Their infants will be dashed to pieces before their eyes; their houses will be plundered, and their wives ravished. See, I am stirring up the Medes against them, who have no regard for silver and do not delight in gold. Their bows will slaughter the young men; they will have no mercy on the fruit of the womb; their eyes will not pity children. And Babylon, the glory of kingdoms, the splendor and pride of the Chaldeans, will be like Sodom and Gomorrah when God overthrew them. (Isaiah 13:6-11, 13,15-19)


God Comes During the Maccabean Period
For I have bent Judah for me, I have filled the bow with Ephraim; and I will stir up your sons, Zion, against your sons, Greece, and will make you as the sword of a mighty man. Yahweh shall be seen over them, and his arrow shall go forth as the lightning; and the Lord Yahweh will blow the trumpet, and will go with whirlwinds of the south. Yahweh of Hosts will defend them; and they shall devour, and shall tread down the sling-stones; and they shall drink, and make a noise as through wine; and they shall be filled like bowls, like the corners of the altar. Yahweh their God will save them in that day (Zechariah 9:13-16)


God Comes to Judge Jerusalem at AD 70
I saw, and behold a white cloud; and upon the cloud one sitting like to the Son of man, having on his head a crown of gold, and in his hand a sharp sickle. And another angel came out from the temple crying with a loud voice to him that sat upon the cloud: Thrust in thy sickle, and reap, because the hour is come to reap: for the harvest of the earth is ripe. And he that sat on the cloud thrust his sickle into the earth, and the earth was reaped. And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle. And another angel came out from the altar, who had power over fire; and he cried with a loud voice to him that had the sharp sickle, saying: Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vineyard of the earth; because the grapes thereof are ripe. And the angel thrust in his sharp sickle into the earth, and gathered the vineyard of the earth, and cast it into the great press of the wrath of God: And the press was trodden without the city (Revelation 14:14-20)
As we see from this brief survey of the cloud comings of God in history, they all follow a similar pattern, nature, and experience: trumpets, clouds, darkening of the constellations, shaking of earth's foundations, great tribulation and distress, God's coming down with his armies. The apocalyptic language is graphic, filled with doom, and repeated at each of God's comings.

While all those comings took place in a timeframe near and at hand to those people, as prophesied, the final judgment of God in history--perhaps many thousands of years into the future--will have a similar pattern, though the specific details are unknown to men. As St. Thomas Aquinas taught:
The signs of which we read in the gospels, as Augustine says, writing to Hesychius about the end of the world, refer not only to Christ's coming to judgment, but also to the time of the sack of Jerusalem, and to the coming of Christ in ceaselessly visiting His Church. So that, perhaps, if we consider them carefully, we shall find that none of them refers to the coming advent, as he remarks: because these signs that are mentioned in the gospels, such as wars, fears, and so forth, have been from the beginning of the human race (Thomas Aquinas; Summa Theologica, Supplement Question 73, Article 1)​
 

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The best way to understand apocalyptic writing is to study the many comings of God during the Old Testament times and see how that language is used in past situations. Once we see the way the prophets spoke of God's comings down during the Old Testament times, we are better equipped to think about how God comes all throughout history and even at the end of time. Study the following comings of God in history and think about the way in which the prophets use familiar doom language in each case:


God Comes in a Cloud Against Ancient Egypt - 700s BC

Behold, Yahweh rides on a swift cloud, and comes to Egypt: and the idols of Egypt shall tremble at his presence; and the heart of Egypt shall melt in the midst of it. I will stir up the Egyptians against the Egyptians (Isaiah 19:1-2)​



God Comes to End Saul's Kingdom - 1000 BC

Then the earth shook and quaked, the foundations of heaven were trembling and were shaken, because He was angry. Smoke went up out of His nostrils, fire from His mouth devoured; coals were kindled by it. He bowed the heavens also, and came down with thick darkness under His feet. And He rode on a cherub and flew; And He appeared on the wings of the wind. And He made darkness canopies around Him, a mass of waters, thick clouds of the sky. From the brightness before Him coals of fire were kindled. The LORD thundered from heaven, and the Most High uttered His voice. And He sent out arrows, and scattered them, Lightning, and routed them. Then the channels of the sea appeared, the foundations of the world were laid bare by the rebuke of the LORD, at the blast of the breath of His nostrils. (2 Sam 22:8-16)​



God Comes to Judge Nineveh - 600s BC

The LORD takes vengeance on His adversaries, and He reserves wrath for His enemies...In whirlwind and storm is His way, and clouds are the dust beneath His feet. He rebukes the sea and makes it dry; He dries up all the rivers. Bashan and Carmel wither; The blossoms of Lebanon wither. Mountains quake because of Him and the hills dissolve; Indeed the earth is upheaved by His presence, the world and all the inhabitants in it. (Nahum 1:2-5)​



God Comes to Judge Egypt in the Time of Nebuchadnezzar - 600s BC

The day is near, even the day of the LORD is near; It will be a day of clouds, a time of doom for the nations. A sword will come upon Egypt, and anguish will be in Ethiopia; When the slain fall in Egypt...And they will know that I am the LORD, when I set a fire in Egypt...I will also make the hordes of Egypt cease by the hand of Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon. He and his people with him, the most ruthless of the nations, will be brought in to destroy the land; and they will draw their swords against Egypt and fill the land with the slain. (Ezekiel 30:3-4,8, 10-11)​



God Comes to Judge Israel at the Time of the Exile - 500s BC

As I live, says the Lord Yahweh, surely with a mighty hand, and with an outstretched arm, and with wrath poured out, will I be king over you: and I will bring you out from the peoples, and will gather you out of the countries in which you are scattered, with a mighty hand, and with an outstretched arm, and with wrath poured out; and I will bring you into the wilderness of the peoples, and there will I enter into judgment with you face to face...Hear the word of Yahweh: Thus says the Lord Yahweh, Behold, I will kindle a fire in you, and it shall devour every green tree in you, and every dry tree: the flaming flame shall not be quenched, and all faces from the south to the north shall be burnt thereby. All flesh shall see that I, Yahweh, have kindled it...Thus says Yahweh: Behold, I am against you, and will draw forth my sword out of its sheath, and will cut off from you the righteous and the wicked. Seeing then that I will cut off from you the righteous and the wicked, therefore shall my sword go forth out of its sheath against all flesh from the south to the north: and all flesh shall know that I, Yahweh, have drawn forth my sword out of its sheath (Ez 20:33-35,47-48; 21:3-5)​



God Comes To Judge Ancient Babylon Using the Medes - 500s BC

Wail, for the day of the LORD is near; it will come like destruction from the Almighty! Therefore all hands will be feeble, and every human heart will melt, and they will be dismayed. Pangs and agony will seize them; they will be in anguish like a woman in labor. They will look aghast at one another; their faces will be aflame. See, the day of the LORD comes, cruel, with wrath and fierce anger, to make the earth a desolation, and to destroy its sinners from it. For the stars of the heavens and their constellations will not give their light; the sun will be dark at its rising, and the moon will not shed its light. I will punish the world for its evil, and the wicked for their iniquity...Therefore I will make the heavens tremble, and the earth will be shaken out of its place, at the wrath of the LORD of hosts in the day of his fierce anger. Like a hunted gazelle, or like sheep with no one to gather them, all will turn to their own people, and all will flee to their own lands. Whoever is found will be thrust through, and whoever is caught will fall by the sword. Their infants will be dashed to pieces before their eyes; their houses will be plundered, and their wives ravished. See, I am stirring up the Medes against them, who have no regard for silver and do not delight in gold. Their bows will slaughter the young men; they will have no mercy on the fruit of the womb; their eyes will not pity children. And Babylon, the glory of kingdoms, the splendor and pride of the Chaldeans, will be like Sodom and Gomorrah when God overthrew them. (Isaiah 13:6-11, 13,15-19)​



God Comes During the Maccabean Period

For I have bent Judah for me, I have filled the bow with Ephraim; and I will stir up your sons, Zion, against your sons, Greece, and will make you as the sword of a mighty man. Yahweh shall be seen over them, and his arrow shall go forth as the lightning; and the Lord Yahweh will blow the trumpet, and will go with whirlwinds of the south. Yahweh of Hosts will defend them; and they shall devour, and shall tread down the sling-stones; and they shall drink, and make a noise as through wine; and they shall be filled like bowls, like the corners of the altar. Yahweh their God will save them in that day (Zechariah 9:13-16)​



God Comes to Judge Jerusalem at AD 70

I saw, and behold a white cloud; and upon the cloud one sitting like to the Son of man, having on his head a crown of gold, and in his hand a sharp sickle. And another angel came out from the temple crying with a loud voice to him that sat upon the cloud: Thrust in thy sickle, and reap, because the hour is come to reap: for the harvest of the earth is ripe. And he that sat on the cloud thrust his sickle into the earth, and the earth was reaped. And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle. And another angel came out from the altar, who had power over fire; and he cried with a loud voice to him that had the sharp sickle, saying: Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vineyard of the earth; because the grapes thereof are ripe. And the angel thrust in his sharp sickle into the earth, and gathered the vineyard of the earth, and cast it into the great press of the wrath of God: And the press was trodden without the city (Revelation 14:14-20)​
As we see from this brief survey of the cloud comings of God in history, they all follow a similar pattern, nature, and experience: trumpets, clouds, darkening of the constellations, shaking of earth's foundations, great tribulation and distress, God's coming down with his armies. The apocalyptic language is graphic, filled with doom, and repeated at each of God's comings.


While all those comings took place in a timeframe near and at hand to those people, as prophesied, the final judgment of God in history--perhaps many thousands of years into the future--will have a similar pattern, though the specific details are unknown to men. As St. Thomas Aquinas taught:
The signs of which we read in the gospels, as Augustine says, writing to Hesychius about the end of the world, refer not only to Christ's coming to judgment, but also to the time of the sack of Jerusalem, and to the coming of Christ in ceaselessly visiting His Church. So that, perhaps, if we consider them carefully, we shall find that none of them refers to the coming advent, as he remarks: because these signs that are mentioned in the gospels, such as wars, fears, and so forth, have been from the beginning of the human race (Thomas Aquinas; Summa Theologica, Supplement Question 73, Article 1)​

Great post. :) :thumbsup: :cool:
 
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Natman

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Agreed. Great post.

If the focus in on associating the presence of God with clouds, you can also reference...

FROM THE OLD TESTAMENT:

Exodus 13:21
By day the LORD went ahead of them in a pillar of cloud to guide them on their way and by night in a pillar of fire to give them light, so that they could travel by day or night.

Exodus 19:9
The LORD said to Moses, "I am going to come to you in a dense cloud, so that the people will hear me speaking with you and will always put their trust in you."

Exodus 24:15-16
When Moses went up on the mountain, the cloud covered it, and the glory of the LORD settled on Mount Sinai. For six days the cloud covered the mountain, and on the seventh day the LORD called to Moses from within the cloud.

Leviticus 16:2
The LORD said to Moses: "Tell your brother Aaron not to come whenever he chooses into the Most Holy Place behind the curtain in front of the atonement cover on the ark, or else he will die, because I appear in the cloud over the atonement cover.

Numbers 9:15-18
On the day the tabernacle, the Tent of the Testimony, was set up, the cloud covered it. From evening till morning the cloud above the tabernacle looked like fire. That is how it continued to be; the cloud covered it, and at night it looked like fire. Whenever the cloud lifted from above the Tent, the Israelites set out; wherever the cloud settled, the Israelites encamped. At the LORD's command the Israelites set out, and at his command they encamped. As long as the cloud stayed over the tabernacle, they remained in camp.

Deuteronomy 5:22
These are the commandments the LORD proclaimed in a loud voice to your whole assembly there on the mountain from out of the fire, the cloud and the deep darkness; and he added nothing more.

1 Kings 8:10
When the priests withdrew from the Holy Place, the cloud filled the temple of the LORD.

2 Chronicles 5:13-14
The trumpeters and singers joined in unison, as with one voice, to give praise and thanks to the LORD. Accompanied by trumpets, cymbals and other instruments, they raised their voices in praise to the LORD and sang: "He is good; his love endures forever." Then the temple of the LORD was filled with a cloud, and the priests could not perform their service because of the cloud, for the glory of the LORD filled the temple of God.

2 Chronicles 6:1
Then Solomon said, "The LORD has said that he would dwell in a dark cloud;

Lamentations 2:1
How the Lord has covered the Daughter of Zion with the cloud of his anger ! He has hurled down the splendor of Israel from heaven to earth; he has not remembered his footstool in the day of his anger.

Lamentations 3:44
You have covered yourself with a cloud so that no prayer can get through.

Ezekiel 1:4
I looked, and I saw a windstorm coming out of the north—an immense cloud with flashing lightning and surrounded by brilliant light. The center of the fire looked like glowing metal

FROM THE NEW TESTAMENT:

Matthew 17:4-5 The Transfiguration
(see also Mark 9:6-8 and Luke 9:33-34)
Peter said to Jesus, "Lord, it is good for us to be here. If you wish, I will put up three shelters—one for you, one for Moses and one for Elijah." While he was still speaking, a bright cloud enveloped them, and a voice from the cloud said, "This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased. Listen to him!" When the disciples heard this, they fell facedown to the ground, terrified.


Matthew 24:29-31 Signs of the end of the age

(See also Mark 13:6 and Luke 21:27)
"Immediately after the distress of those days" 'the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from the sky, and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.' "At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and all the nations of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky, with power and great glory. And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.

Matthew 26:63-64 Trial of Jesus

(See also Mark 14:62)
But Jesus remained silent. The high priest said to him, "I charge you under oath by the living God: Tell us if you are the Christ, the Son of God." "Yes, it is as you say," Jesus replied. "But I say to all of you: In the future you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven."

Revelation 1:7
Look, he is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see him, even those who pierced him; and all the peoples of the earth will mourn because of him. So shall it be! Amen.

Revelation 14:14-16 (Already mentioned above)
 
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holdon

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God Comes to Judge Jerusalem at AD 70

I saw, and behold a white cloud; and upon the cloud one sitting like to the Son of man, having on his head a crown of gold, and in his hand a sharp sickle. And another angel came out from the temple crying with a loud voice to him that sat upon the cloud: Thrust in thy sickle, and reap, because the hour is come to reap: for the harvest of the earth is ripe. And he that sat on the cloud thrust his sickle into the earth, and the earth was reaped. And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle. And another angel came out from the altar, who had power over fire; and he cried with a loud voice to him that had the sharp sickle, saying: Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vineyard of the earth; because the grapes thereof are ripe. And the angel thrust in his sharp sickle into the earth, and gathered the vineyard of the earth, and cast it into the great press of the wrath of God: And the press was trodden without the city (Revelation 14:14-20)

I don't understand how you make this to refer to Jerusalem's destruction in 70AD. Was that "the final harvest"??? This is just wishful thinking, taking the "newspapers" of the first century to explain the Apocalypse.....
 
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gwynedd1

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I don't understand how you make this to refer to Jerusalem's destruction in 70AD. Was that "the final harvest"??? This is just wishful thinking, taking the "newspapers" of the first century to explain the Apocalypse.....
[/indent]

Hello Holdon,

Your view would not be so either. I presume you believe in the millennial age as we do. In otherwords something happens on the earth after this. In neither case is it a "final harvest". Also, the same word is used for earth or land in the Greek. It could certainly read well with the land being ripe for harvest.
 
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holdon

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Hello Holdon,

Your view would not be so either. I presume you believe in the millennial age as we do. In otherwords something happens on the earth after this. In neither case is it a "final harvest".
It is the final harvest of this world.
Also, the same word is used for earth or land in the Greek. It could certainly read well with the land being ripe for harvest.

I think not: see the same word in 14:7.
 
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gwynedd1

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It is the final harvest of this world.

I think not: see the same word in 14:7.

Hello Holdon,

If this is the final harvest then what is the millennial age for? Do you expect the final harvest to before this age? By implication you are saying all in the millennial age are lost.

Please explain.
 
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holdon

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Hello Holdon,

If this is the final harvest then what is the millennial age for? Do you expect the final harvest to before this age? By implication you are saying all in the millennial age are lost.

Please explain.

No, all in the millenial age are not lost. But the millenial age is a different world: the world to come. It is true that at the end of the millenial age Satan will be loosed and try to deceive the nations one last time. He will not succeed. Christ will then offer up the kingdom to the Father.
 
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gwynedd1

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No, all in the millenial age are not lost. But the millenial age is a different world: the world to come. It is true that at the end of the millenial age Satan will be loosed and try to deceive the nations one last time. He will not succeed. Christ will then offer up the kingdom to the Father.

Hello Holdon,

I agree with all of this with the exception of the time table. I agree with much of what premillenialists think for the simple reason that we do read the same scriptures.

The only difference is I recognize the fulfillment of most of this while others do not. My biggest problem is every thing I attribute to the future must take away from the past. If I consider Revelation to be about a future Jerusalem it means I must down play 70 AD in both Revelation and Daniel. I must also relegate and down play the resurrections of Jesus. This is the worst of the problem I see beyond the details. It was a colossal event and the scripture would not be silent.


Jerusalem was destroyed completely including the temple. Within a generation nearly every Jew was removed from the land. Sacrifice certainly has been ended. It is a near certainty most Jews in the world perished. 1.1 million was a massive amount of people in the ancient world especially for a nation. I see no hesitation in assuming this was 2/3s of the Jews. Estimates of the whole empire are about 45 million at that time.
How could the scripture be silent about this? If Revelation, Zechariah, and Daniel are about the future how could scripture miss this?


When I was a futurist as I was taught by my father and he did know about 70 AD but described it as a dispersion. It was no mere dispersion or scattering. After reading and studying it for myself it was a destruction of the national identity.


Now when I read this I am no longer confused. This is not in the portion of Revelation with respect to the visions.

Revelation 1
3 Blessed is the one who reads aloud the words of the prophecy, and blessed are those who hear and who keep what is written in it; for the time is near.
 
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holdon

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Hello Holdon,

I agree with all of this with the exception of the time table. I agree with much of what premillenialists think for the simple reason that we do read the same scriptures.

The only difference is I recognize the fulfillment of most of this while others do not. My biggest problem is every thing I attribute to the future must take away from the past. If I consider Revelation to be about a future Jerusalem it means I must down play 70 AD in both Revelation and Daniel. I must also relegate and down play the resurrections of Jesus. This is the worst of the problem I see beyond the details. It was a colossal event and the scripture would not be silent.


Jerusalem was destroyed completely including the temple. Within a generation nearly every Jew was removed from the land. Sacrifice certainly has been ended. It is a near certainty most Jews in the world perished. 1.1 million was a massive amount of people in the ancient world especially for a nation. I see no hesitation in assuming this was 2/3s of the Jews. Estimates of the whole empire are about 45 million at that time.
How could the scripture be silent about this? If Revelation, Zechariah, and Daniel are about the future how could scripture miss this?


When I was a futurist as I was taught by my father and he did know about 70 AD but described it as a dispersion. It was no mere dispersion or scattering. After reading and studying it for myself it was a destruction of the national identity.


Now when I read this I am no longer confused. This is not in the portion of Revelation with respect to the visions.

Revelation 1

The 70AD destruction of Jerusalem was explicitly predicted by Jesus in Luke 21:20-24 (as well as alluded to in several parables) and by Daniel in chapter 9:26. I don't see it in the Revelation though.
 
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gwynedd1

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The 70AD destruction of Jerusalem was explicitly predicted by Jesus in Luke 21:20-24 (as well as alluded to in several parables) and by Daniel in chapter 9:26. I don't see it in the Revelation though.

Hello Holdon,

That is sensible. Some consider this future.

20 ‘When you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation has come near.* 21Then those in Judea must flee to the mountains, and those inside the city must leave it, and those out in the country must not enter it; 22for these are days of vengeance, as a fulfilment of all that is written. 23Woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing infants in those days! For there will be great distress on the earth and wrath against this people; 24they will fall by the edge of the sword and be taken away as captives among all nations; and Jerusalem will be trampled on by the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.


However I see the exact same description in Revelation. So this is why I see Revelation as such.

Revelation 11
Then I was given a measuring rod like a staff, and I was told, ‘Come and measure the temple of God and the altar and those who worship there, 2but do not measure the court outside the temple; leave that out, for it is given over to the nations, and they will trample over the holy city for forty-two months. 3And I will grant my two witnesses authority to prophesy for one thousand two hundred and sixty days, wearing sackcloth.’
 
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holdon

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Hello Holdon,

That is sensible. Some consider this future.
I don't.
However I see the exact same description in Revelation. So this is why I see Revelation as such.

Revelation 11

If you look at the context of Rev 11 it is clear that a special period is indicated with the 3.5 years = 42 months.
Daniel 9:27 refers to this last week of the 70 and the middle of that week. He relates how the head of the Roman Empire (=the prince who shall come of vs. 26) confirms a pact with the many (=these are Jewish unbelievers throughout Daniel) for one week. We see thus that in these last days, the Nations will basically govern Jerusalem.
We see further that there is a temple in Jerusalem, and 2 witnesses in the city which seems to be intact (not like the temple and city destroyed in Luke 21)

Therefore this passage is not completely congruous with Luke 21:24. At best you can say that these last 42 months are the last part of the period indicated by "until the times of the nations be fulfilled".
 
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HisdaughterJen

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Don't want to throw a monkey-wrench into the conversation but have you considered:

Why wasn't the annihilation of 6 million Jews in the 1940's considered "it"?

An argument could be made for the events surrounding Moses and Pharaoh in Egypt as being the Revelation.

We've got to leave room for this:

Ecc 1:9What has been will be again, what has been done will be done again; there is nothing new under the sun.


There is coming a time when THIS will be true...:

Zec 14:11It will be inhabited; never again will it be destroyed. Jerusalem will be secure.


....and it hasn't happened yet! THAT's how we know that something is still to come!
 
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gwynedd1

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Don't want to throw a monkey-wrench into the conversation but have you considered:

Why wasn't the annihilation of 6 million Jews in the 1940's considered "it"?

An argument could be made for the events surrounding Moses and Pharaoh in Egypt as being the Revelation.

We've got to leave room for this:

Ecc 1:9What has been will be again, what has been done will be done again; there is nothing new under the sun.


There is coming a time when THIS will be true...:

Zec 14:11It will be inhabited; never again will it be destroyed. Jerusalem will be secure.


....and it hasn't happened yet! THAT's how we know that something is still to come!

Hello HisdaughterJen,

Not if one considers the heavenly Jerusalem as this fulfillment.

Hebrews 12

But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to innumerable angels in festal gathering, 23and to the assembly* of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven, and to God the judge of all, and to the spirits of the righteous made perfect, 24and to Jesus, the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood that speaks a better word than the blood of Abel.

I do not believe the city is built by man.

Acts 7
47But it was Solomon who built a house for him. 48Yet the Most High does not dwell in houses made by human hands;* as the prophet says,
49“Heaven is my throne,
and the earth is my footstool.
What kind of house will you build for me, says the Lord,
or what is the place of my rest?
50Did not my hand make all these things?”

I can find these and other references in the New Testament to the heavenly Jerusalem but I cannot find anything to one on earth. So in otherwords there is a plausible explanation based upon scripture.
 
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HisdaughterJen

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Hello HisdaughterJen,

Not if one considers the heavenly Jerusalem as this fulfillment.

Hebrews 12



I do not believe the city is built by man.

Acts 7


I can find these and other references in the New Testament to the heavenly Jerusalem but I cannot find anything to one on earth. So in otherwords there is a plausible explanation based upon scripture.
Well, how about this as a plausible explanation...

Christians go to the New Jerusalem prior to judgment and wrath and never leave it. Christ will appear with the spirits of the dead in Christ. Their bodies will rise, rejoin their spirits, and we who are alive will be changed. We will be caught up to meet Christ in the air. We will have glorified bodies like that of Christ. Christ will lead us to the presence of God. Our citizenship is in heaven. The New Jerusalem comes down at the end of the millenium when all things are made new.

Rev 3:10 Since you have kept my command to endure patiently, I will also keep you from the hour of trial that is going to come upon the whole world to test those who live on the earth.
Rev 3:11 I am coming soon. Hold on to what you have, so that no one will take your crown.
Rev 3:12 Him who overcomes I will make a pillar in the temple of my God. Never again will he leave it. I will write on him the name of my God and the name of the city of my God, the new Jerusalem, which is coming down out of heaven from my God; and I will also write on him my new name.


and this:

Jhn 14:2 In my Father's house are many rooms; if it were not so, I would have told you. I am going there to prepare a place for you.
Jhn 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am.



Those who didn't choose Christ must come to know Him and obey Him during the millenium because the Glory returns to the Temple during the millenium and people go there to enquire of the Lord and learn His ways. Jerusalem, Israel and the people of Israel will be the center of the earth.

Zec 8:19 This is what the Lord Almighty says: “The fasts of the fourth, fifth, seventh and tenth months will become joyful and glad occasions and happy festivals for Judah. Therefore love truth and peace.”
Zec 8:20 This is what the Lord Almighty says: “Many peoples and the inhabitants of many cities will yet come,
Zec 8:21and the inhabitants of one city will go to another and say, ‘Let us go at once to entreat the Lord and seek the Lord Almighty. I myself am going.’
Zec 8:22 And many peoples and powerful nations will come to Jerusalem to seek the Lord Almighty and to entreat him.”
Zec 8:23 This is what the Lord Almighty says: “In those days ten men from all languages and nations will take firm hold of one Jew by the hem of his robe and say, ‘Let us go with you, because we have heard that God is with you.’ ”



Isa 2:2 In the last days

the mountain of the Lord's temple will be established
as chief among the mountains;
it will be raised above the hills,
and all nations will stream to it.

Isa 2:3 Many peoples will come and say,

“Come, let us go up to the mountain of the Lord,
to the house of the God of Jacob.
He will teach us his ways,
so that we may walk in his paths.”
The law will go out from Zion,
the word of the Lord from Jerusalem.
Isa 2:4 He will judge between the nations
and will settle disputes for many peoples.
They will beat their swords into plowshares
and their spears into pruning hooks.
Nation will not take up sword against nation,
nor will they train for war anymore.



Christians have a heavenly reward. Heaven is our home. Israel has a promised future as well, but it is earthly until heaven and earth come together.
 
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GW

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HisdaughterJen:
Christians have a heavenly reward. Heaven is our home. Israel has a promised future as well, but it is earthly until heaven and earth come together.

GW:
Christians are the Israel of God with the coming of New Covenant has come. The Jewish apostles and their Jewish followers were the ones in whom the continuation of Israel rested. They were the remnant.
 
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