• Welcome to Christian Forums
  1. Welcome to Christian Forums, a forum to discuss Christianity in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

  2. The forums in the Christian Congregations category are now open only to Christian members. Please review our current Faith Groups list for information on which faith groups are considered to be Christian faiths. Christian members please remember to read the Statement of Purpose threads for each forum within Christian Congregations before posting in the forum.
  3. Please note there is a new rule regarding the posting of videos. It reads, "Post a summary of the videos you post . An exception can be made for music videos.". Unless you are simply sharing music, please post a summary, or the gist, of the video you wish to share.

Key Beliefs

Discussion in 'Paterology, Christology & Pneumatology' started by Messenger, Jun 25, 2002.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. Blackhawk

    Blackhawk Monkey Boy

    +71
    Eastern Orthodox
    Married
    US-Republican
     

     
    Okay. But then you run into the other side of the problem.  He was not a fit sacrifice for He was not like us at all.  He was  not a man so He could not die for our sins.  So we have the God man. 

     

    1. Only God could live a sinless perfect life in this world and had the power to conquer death. 

    I do not believe that angels would be able to face temptation like we do in this world and be able to not sin.  Augustine held that the angels no longer have a will of theirown.  That after the fall of Satan God took away their freewill.  I do not know if that is true but it is an interesting theory.   

    2. He had to be a man so He could suffer like us and be tempted just like us.  


    I  do not belive that an angel would be able to not sin while being a MAN also and being tempted as we do in this world.  Only God could do that. 
     

    Oh and Adam and Eve gave into sin so while they were sinless for a time they definitely showed that they could not do it.  


    blackhawk

     

     
     
  2. darkwoof

    darkwoof Member

    89
    +4
    Christian
    Single
    What makes you so sure angels would be unable to do that? After all, when Satan rebelled, those that stayed on did because they resisted out of their free will. I see no reason why they would be unable to this time.

    *AND*, if after the fall God "locked" free will status, such that those that chose to follow God would do so diligently, and those who rebelled would stay rebellious, it would make sense that given a chance to sin, the good angels would not be able to, since they had no free will!

    This really only showed that pure man (not God-Man or Angel-Man) falls to temptation.

    But more importantly, I believe Jesus is sent to die for us, not because only He can do it, but because:

    1) of John 3:16, The story of love is great only because He sent His only begotten Son, and not one of the innumerable angels in his service.

    2) Christ is the very perfect representation of God the Father. It was through Him that the unseen God is seen and magnified. Angels, as shown by the meaning of their name, are messengers, not that great a display of the Will, Righteousness and Love of God.

    Whether angels can or not remain sinless if having to go through the same Christ did is debateable. I'm unable to, and refuse to, give a positive comment about anything that I cannot find in the Word of God.

    That said, my opinion is yes, Jesus Christ is God, but not co-equal with the Father. In nature perhaps, but not fully. They're all fully divine, and all God, but the Father is above all.

    Christ have always shown by his actions that seems to place him in the surbordinate position to the Father. So does the Holy Ghost. Both work the will of God, but neither commits His own will.

    And when the three are put together, God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Spirit becomes:

    God, Son of God, Spirit of God

    and not

    Father of God, Son of God, Spirit of God

    God the Father is always given reverence.

     
     
  3. Blackhawk

    Blackhawk Monkey Boy

    +71
    Eastern Orthodox
    Married
    US-Republican
    Well it shows that many could not even not do it in the presence of God in Heaven.  So I do not feel that they could do it here on Earth where we can't look upon the face of God. 



    But they would have to have free will in order to be tempted.  no freewill no temptation.  Without temptation anyone can live a sinless life.  But the sacrifice would not be adequate if the being that is being sacrificed had no will. 




    Yeah it is cool that He came Himself  Oh but just so you know I was not arguing that my reasons were the only reasons why it was Jesus who died for us.  I was only stating why Jesus had to be God.



    But it is in the word of God.  The angels fell.  That should give you enough reason to believe that it could not of been angel because an angels blew it in the best of circumstances. 



    Well I have said from the beggining that God is 3 persons but one in substance.  And I never said that Jesus did not humble Himself to the will of the Father.  Know though that God the Father is not more of a God than God the Son or God the Holy Spirit. All are like you said God and are one in substance. 

    Now how can God be 1 in substance but 3 in person?  That is the mystery of the Trinity.  So  I think we agree here but I would say to both of us to watch out exactly how we explain the differences between God the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. 

    Blackhawk
     
  4. LouisBooth

    LouisBooth Well-Known Member

    +59
    Christian
    Married
    US-Libertarian
    "The point of this thread was is Jesus, the Son of God, co-equal with the Father? "

    Okay, then my answer is yes, he is co-equal to the father.
     
  5. darkwoof

    darkwoof Member

    89
    +4
    Christian
    Single
    Please note that the angels who fell ARE the angels who fell. AND the angels who didn't fall, NEVER DID. The angels loyal to God are fighting spiritual battles for God and His people this very day. They were tempted, triumphed with the glory of the Lord, and won. That said, it really doesn't prove why Jesus is God. Jesus is God not due to his capabilities; but due to His Father's divine plan.

    Can you imagine this verse?

    "For God so loved the world, that he gave one of his innumerable loyal angels, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life."

    Also, we've seen in the bible that when people in the bible tries to worship God's angels, they refused to be worshipped, for only God is to be given glory. That's another reason why Jesus was sent.

    The reason God didn't send an angel was possibly not because an angel cannot remain sinless, but that&nbsp;Christ's being here was more than that. He was to be a Light unto the world, and who better to represent Truth and Justice, Love and Righteousness than God Himself?John 1:17 For the law was given by Moses, <I>but</I> grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.
    I was really answering Messenger's request that we stay on the original topic of whether the persons of the Godhead are co-equal.

    There are not mysteries to date that I've encountered in the bible. What is God exactly? The divinity, authority, glory, ability and absolute value of Love and Righteousness -- two points explicitly mentioned in the good book which tells why God punishes, and why He saves. The definition of God is God's Will itself, friends. And the Father is the Will of God.
     
  6. darkwoof

    darkwoof Member

    89
    +4
    Christian
    Single
    Anyway, school's starting soon and depending on schedule I'll be coming less. If anyone's looking for me to discuss or debate some of this (or any other) issues, feel free to PM me. :)
     
  7. Messenger

    Messenger Simplicity of Life

    +37
    Christian
    Thanks to all.....I am going to go back to church on Sunday and I'll let you all know if I decide to be a member or not....A great thing about the church is that they do a great deal with the jr. high & highschool kids (cook-outs, picnics, movies, float trips) I have 2 teen boys and my daughter is almost in jr.high so I think it is good to surround them with other kids who don't smoke, do drugs, cuse, and such. My baby girl enjoys their 2 yr old class room where they sing and play. The church is in a Knights of Columbus Hall right now and hopes to get a church building someday but it is into giving more than taking. In 2 years the church has given over $20,000 to missionary work. Our pastor does life messages and like this past week he discussed spreading the good news and to show it in the way we live and asked us to write a letter or make a phone call to mend relationships and be the first to say your sorry...A lot of his messeges are simple but they are important. He said their will be messeges now and he believes the messege will be love the love God has for us is what we need...no matter how bad things seem we know God is looking over us and it will all be okay. We had a series on Star Wars...the force of good and evil...(Ephisians) we saw how Luke Skywalker was tempted to pick up the lightsaber and strike the old bad guy down because as soon as he did with the hatred and anger he would have crossed over to the dark side....we were told not to repay evil with evil. The sermons are far from boring...they have a big screen and have the songs on it...videos of the kids and our picnics...the band has a keyboard, drums, guitar the music is very uplifting.

    I have gone to Baptist, Lutheran, and Catholic churches. They were fine but not as much like family as this church. This church doesn't say we can't dance, drink in moderation, listen to music...(can't live without country music), and enjoy life. We are to live as Jesus taught and as we are lead by the Holy Spirit and the Bible.

    My words don't do the church justice...the people are great....and I really do like the fact that we can dress casually.

    Anyway thanks for letting me ramble and thanks for helping me to understand God Jesus and the Holy Spirit!!!!:) :) :)

    It is truely A Great Day to Be Alive!:)
     
  8. Blackhawk

    Blackhawk Monkey Boy

    +71
    Eastern Orthodox
    Married
    US-Republican
    "Please note that the angels who fell ARE the angels who fell. AND the angels who didn't fall, NEVER DID. The angels loyal to God are fighting spiritual battles for God and His people this very day. They were tempted, triumphed with the glory of the Lord, and won. That said, it really doesn't prove why Jesus is God. Jesus is God not due to his capabilities; but due to His Father's divine plan. "

    No Jesus is God because He is God. He co-eternal. The best way to say it is that He is God because He is God. The Father never created Him. He always was and will always be.

    I think though that misunderstand me. What I am saying is that when we look at scripture and the sacrifice that was paid for us it had to be God Himself that gave the sacrifice because no one else could. I am not saying Jesus is God because He is omnipresent, omnipotent, omniscient, etc. God said His name is "I AM" and that was Jesus' name Also "I AM"

    Now onto the angels. Yes some did not fall to the temptation. However again that was in the best of circumstances and they have shown that angels can't be trusted to not succomb even in the best of places. So if they go to Earth, which is fallen, and they have to live as a human and thrist and have pains and desires like a man then it is pretty obvious that they would not be able to do it.

    It is obvious that with all this and then direct temptation by Satan would be too much for them. So the sacrifice had to be God Himsef because only He could do what He did.

    "Can you imagine this verse?

    "For God so loved the world, that he gave one of his innumerable loyal angels, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." "

    Of course not.

    "Also, we've seen in the bible that when people in the bible tries to worship God's angels, they refused to be worshipped, for only God is to be given glory. That's another reason why Jesus was sent."

    okay but again I think that you have miisunderstood my intent here. My intent is to show that the sacrifice had to be God Himself and no one else. It could not of been and angel or just a man.

    "The reason God didn't send an angel was possibly not because an angel cannot remain sinless, but that Christ's being here was more than that. He was to be a Light unto the world, and who better to represent Truth and Justice, Love and Righteousness than God Himself?John 1:17 For the law was given by Moses, <I>but</I> grace and truth came by Jesus Christ."

    okay I have no problem with that statement but I think it was also because the anfels could not remain sinless i the face of so much opposition. But there are more than one reson why God sent Jesus instead of an angel or instead of transforming a man.

    "I was really answering Messenger's request that we stay on the original topic of whether the persons of the Godhead are co-equal."

    okay.

    "There are not mysteries to date that I've encountered in the bible."

    Huh? there are no mysteries in the Bible? I can think of many. one of the greatest mysteries is how can a God love me who is such a sinner so much that He died to save me? Also there is the Trinity. Is God in time or outside of time? What exactly does eternal mean? How can God be completely sovereign but we still have free choice?

    These all have partial answers but they are still mysteries because we do not all about them. WE can't understand them completly.

    Aa Paul said in 1 Cor 13

    1Cr 13:9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part;
    1Cr 13:10 but when the perfect comes, the partial will be done away.
    1Cr 13:11 When I was a child, I used to speak like a child, think like a child, reason like a child; when I became a man, I did away with childish things.
    1Cr 13:12 For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face; now I know in part, but then I will know fully just as I also have been fully known.

    So now these and other questions are mysteries but in Heaven we will know all.

    "What is God exactly? The divinity, authority, glory, ability and absolute value of Love and Righteousness -- two points explicitly mentioned in the good book which tells why God punishes, and why He saves. The definition of God is God's Will itself, friends. And the Father is the Will of God."

    What does it mean when you say that God is Divine? And I do not want just a dictionary answer I want a full anwer.

    Also what Does God's glory look like exactly? What does that mean? Give me a full answer?

    Basically what I am trying to show here is that we have a lot of great words for God but we do not know what all of them exactly mean. WE do not know God fully right now. His ways are mysterious to us. We know some things but we do not know God in full.

    So God Himself is another mystery. What is God completely? You have listed some words above but it is a very incomplete definition.

    blackhawk
     
  9. Blackhawk

    Blackhawk Monkey Boy

    +71
    Eastern Orthodox
    Married
    US-Republican
    &nbsp;

    that is okay I am going to be out of the the forum more than in it the next month or so.&nbsp; God bless!
     
  10. SavedByGrace3

    SavedByGrace3 Whoever calls on the name of Jesus will be saved Supporter

    +1,187
    United States
    Christian
    Married
    US-Others
    The basic foundational doctrines and teachings of the Christian faith are listed in Hebrews 6:1-2&nbsp;
    Heb 6
    :1 Wherefore leaving the doctrine of the first principles of Christ, let us press on unto perfection; not laying again a foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God
    :2 of the teaching of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.&nbsp;

    &nbsp;
     
  11. LouisBooth

    LouisBooth Well-Known Member

    +59
    Christian
    Married
    US-Libertarian
    Let me add something from a web site that might help..

    The Deity of Christ
    Jesus is God in flesh (John 8:58 with Exodus 3:14). See also John 1:1,14; 10:30-33; 20:28; Col. 2:9; Phil. 2:5-8; Heb. 1:8
    1 John 4:2-3: "This is how you can recognize the Spirit of God: Every spirit that acknowledges that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God, but every spirit that does not acknowledge Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the Antichrist, which you have heard is coming and even now is already in the world."
    The above verse needs to be cross referenced with John 1:1,14 (also written by John) where he states that the Word was God and the Word became flesh.
    1 John 4:2-3 is saying that if you deny that Jesus is God in flesh then you are of the spirit of Antichrist.
    John 8:24, "I said, therefore, to you, that you will die in your sins. For if you do not believe that I am, you will die in your sins."
    Jesus said here that if you do not believe "that I am" you will die in your sins. In Greek I am is 'ego eimi,' which means ‘I am.' These are the same words used in John 8:58 where Jesus says "...before Abraham was, I am." He was claiming the divine title by quoting Exodus 3:14 in the Greek Septuagint. (The Septuagint was the Hebrew Old Testament translated into Greek.)
    Jesus is the proper object of faith
    It is not simply enough to have faith. Faith is only as valid as what it is put in. You must put your faith in the proper object. Cults have false objects of faith; therefore, their faith is useless--no matter how sincere they are.
    If you put your faith in a vacuum cleaner, then you will be in a lot of trouble on the day of judgment. You might have great faith, but so what? It is in something that can't save you.
    The Doctrine of the deity of Christ includes:
    The Trinity - There is one God who exists in three persons: The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. They are all coeternal, and of the same nature.
    Monotheism - There is only one God in all existence (Isaiah 43:10; 44:6,8; 45:5,14,18,21,22; 46:9; 47:8). Mormons believe that many gods exist though they serve and worship only one. Therefore, they are polytheists which excludes them from the camp of Christianity.
    The Hypostatic Union - That Jesus is both God and man.
    The sufficiency of the sacrifice of Christ - The sacrifice of Christ is completely sufficient to pay for the sins of the world
    As God - Jesus must be God to be able to offer a sacrifice of value greater than that of a mere man.
    He had to die for the sins of the world (1 John 2:2). Only God could do that.
    As man - Jesus must be man to be able to be a sacrifice for man.
    As a man He can be the mediator between God and man (1 Tim. 2:5).
     
  12. Messenger

    Messenger Simplicity of Life

    +37
    Christian
    Thanks Louis and everyone else....I am gonna try not to be on here much anymore...I got a lot of things to do with family, children, God and Life. I will check my mail and check in but I have to start living the life instead of just talking about it on here...everything in moderation. I have spent many hour on here but it has helped me a great deal and for you all I am thankful!:)
    Love and God Bless,
    Messenger
     
  13. LouisBooth

    LouisBooth Well-Known Member

    +59
    Christian
    Married
    US-Libertarian
    Not a problem messenger. I'll be praying for you!
     
  14. Messenger

    Messenger Simplicity of Life

    +37
    Christian
    I am now a member. The mission ofthe church is to connect people to God and each other
    Mathew 22:37-39
    The church is fun, and the life messages are great. We don't have doctrines, extra books...We just have the Bible. I like it that way.
    Love and God Bless and Thank you all!
    Messenger
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
Loading...