Key Beliefs

[Messenger]

I have been going to a Non denominational Church for a few months now. I enjoy the people. I enjoy the music. I enjoy the sermons that deal with everyday life. I have gone to one of their classes which tells about the church to consider becoming a member. The members are made up of people of many backgrounds former Baptist, Luthern, Methodist, Catholics and probably a few others. The church has an understanding that certain beliefs we may vary on such as Dancing, music ect... But their are Key Beliefs we should agree on. I have been given a list of their Key Beliefs I have read and circled one thing. I would like to post their Beliefs and hear your opinions on them.

Key Beliefs

God the Father
We believe in one God, the Creator of the Universe and Giver of Life. God is an all-powerful, all-knowing and ever present spiritual being. He is truthful, faithful, loving, good, patient, just, merciful, holy, and righteous. As Ruler of the Universe, God reigns supreme over nature, history, and human life. (Deuteronomy 6:4-5, Hebrews 11:3; 2Corinthians 13:14; Acts 17:24-28)

Jesus the Son
We believe in Jesus Christ, the Son of God, and co-equal with the Father. Though Jesus lived an uncorrupted himan life on earth, his own people murdered him on a cross. After three days, Jesus came bach to life, demonstrating his power over sin and death. He later returned to heaven with the Father, and now reigns in heaven, interceding for us until he comes again. He is the only way to the Father. (John 1:1-3; 14,18,Acts2:23-24,36; 1Timothy 2:5; John 14:6)

The Holy Spirit
We belive in the Holy Spirit, the presence of God in the lives of believers. God has given us the Holy Spirit as a comforter, guide, teacher, ans guarantee of our eternal hope. The Holy Spirit recreates men and women, empowering us to live the new life to which we have been called. His work in us produces lives characterized by love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self-control. Through His Spirit, god grants gifts and abilities to believers for strengthening of the church. (John 14:16-17: Romans 8:9-14; Galatians 5:22-23; Ephesians 4:11-13)

The Bible
The Bible is the inspired Word of God, written by human authors under the supernatural guidance of the Holy spirit, and is entirely true. Scripture is useful for teaching, preaching and training in faith. God's Word is the norm and standard for all subsequent Christian teaching. We believe that God does also communicate through the Holy Spirit,the Church, prayer, and circumstances, but these will never conflict with what is already given to us in the Bible. (2Peter 1:20-21; John 17:17; 2 Timothy 3:16-17 Jude3)

Humanity
We believe men and woman are created in the image of God and are completely dependent upon Him. The primary purpose of humanity is to glorify God and to enjoy a relationship with Him. Unfortunately, all men and women rebel against God's standards and deserve the separtaion from Him that sin brings. Reconciliation with God is only available by His grace for salvation and new life. 9Enesis 1:26-27: Psalm 23; Mark 12:29-30; Romans 3:23-24)

Sin and Salvation
We believe that all people are created in the image of God and have tremendous potential for good, but we are all marred by an attitude of disobedience toward God called sin. As a result of our sin, we have shattered and broken relationship with God that can only be made whole through Jesus Christ. Salvation is God's free gift (grace) to us but we must accept it by acknowledging Jesus Christ as our Lord and Savior (confessing); turning from our sinful life-style (repentence); and trusting in Jesus christ for the frogiveness of our sins. We can never make up for our sin by self-improvement or good works. (Romans 5:1; 3:23; 6:23; Ephesians 2:8-9; John 1:12; 14:6; Titus 3:5; Galatians 3:26)

The Church
We believe in the Christian church, the community of God's people founded on the confession of Christ. Jesus is the head of the body, the universal church, which is united by its common faith in Him. The church participates in the worship of God, the fellowship and training of believers, and the spread of God's love in the world. The ministry of Jesus continues in the church as people love and help thoses separated from God and others. (Mathew 16:16-18; Ephesians 1:22-23, 2:19-20; 1Peter 5:1-4; Acts 2:42-47)

Baptism
When we accept Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior of our life, we are commanded in the Bible to be baptized by immersion in order to receive forgiveness of our sins and the gift of the Holy Spirit (Acts 2:37-39). Baptism is done out of obedience ot Jesus Christ and is a part of our salvation process. Baptism also illustrates how God cleanses us of our sins as well as how He raises us to a new life in jesus Christ.
(Matthew 28:19-20; Mark 1:9-11; Galatians 3:26-27, Acts 8:26-40; 9:17-19; 10:47-48; 16:15; 16:29-33)

Communion
We believe in the declaration of forgiveness established by Jesus through communion. communion is recognized in the church as a reminder of his death for us. Each participant may know of the forgiveness offered to him or her through the body and the blood of Christ. We celebrate communion ever time we gaterh as the early church did. (Matthew 26:26-28; Luke 22:19-20; Acts 2:42-47, 20:7; 1Corinthians 11:23-29)

Spiritual Gifts
Every disciple of Jesus Christ has been given specific gifts and talents by the Holy Spirit to advance the kingdom of God. Thesegifts and talents are to be diligently developed and used at home, church and in society. (Romans 12:3-8; 1corinthians 12:1-11; Ephesians 4:11-13)

Equality
Jesus Christ came to restore not only our relationship with God- but also to bring unity and dignity to men and woman of all races, ages and classes. All persons are made in the image of God and every disciple of Jesus Christ is to reflect that image in the home and in society. (Galatians 3:26-29; Ephesians 2:11-22; John 17:20-26: Acts 10:9-23, Colossians 3:11-14)

Eternity
We are created to exist forever. We will either exist eternally separated from God by sin, or eternally with God through the forgiveness and salvation of Jesus Christ. To be eternally separated from God is called Hell. To be eternally in union with God is called heaven. Heaven and Hell are real places of eternal existence. Eternal life begins the moment we receive Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior of our life. ( John 3:16; 14-17: Romans 6:23; 8:17-18; Revelation 20:15; 21:27; 1 Corinthians 2:7-9; Matthew 25:41)

I highlighted in red the one word in these beliefs that I am uncertain of. Please if you know of any scripture in the Bible where Jesus states he is equal with God please post.

Thanks! Love and God Bless

 

[SCJ]

Yes, that is was stood out to me too, and not because of the red.

There is also another thing. I don't know if you are going to get a good answer here though and one of the moderators might want to move it to a Christian Only forum. Otherwise it will turn into another big argument on the existence of God/Jesus/Holy Spirit, etc.

Now, for what you saw and I saw too...they are in very dangerous territory because by their statement of Jesus Christ they say that Jesus is a separate entity completely from God, but completely equal. By following that they are actually believing in TWO Gods which is against the commandments. I am not in any means saying your church is heretical there, it seems like a really great place.

I wish I didn't have to run. But I have to go visit some people, email me scjarrell@bellsouth.net so I can get back to you sooner. In the meantime I would ask a moderator to move this post so you could get an answer without a bunch of people arguing about existence.

 

[Messenger]

I see Jesus as not God but as our only link to God...now as far as co-equal this just doesn't make sense to me. I really didn't know where to post this so I posted it here...if moderators wish to move it I figure they will.

Thanks for your response...if you have verses showing co-equal post them when you get a chance....Thank you! What did you think of the rest of the key beliefs?

Love and God Bless.

 

[Blackhawk]

I think it is probably a bad choice of words. I think that they are basically trrying to say Jesus is God. But possibly not because they did not say it. If not then there is a big problem becasue the Bible would then contradict their statement of faith. So I would ask your pastor to clarify what they mean by "co-equal."
Because many of those "Baptist, Luthern, Methodist, Catholics" whose denominations have traditionally believed that Jesus is God might not understand that this church does not believe that with this wording. What is realy scary is that I wonder how many have read the statement of Faith of the church at all?

blackhawk

 

[Messenger]

Philippians ....I believe some of the answers to my question lies in this scripture. Love and God Bless.

 

[Blackhawk]

I moved it into here because it seems to fit. If you are a nonChristian being redirected into the forum this is a Christian only forum.

 

[Messenger]

Blackhawk before becoming a member we receive this key beliefs and go to two classes....I believe the Bible tells us many times that Jesus and God are for one purpose but are separate....Philipians states that equality wasn't for us to grasp so Jesus emptied himself as a servant. I believe Jesus is here to Glorify God and to bring us to God. I believe this is Bible based. I don't claim to have all the answers but I don't believe any one does except for God Jesus and the Holy Spirit. God Jesus and the Holy Spirit are all for one goal but they distictly have different possitions in which to bring God the Glory. To put them together as one I believe is only partially biblical as to separate them completely is. I have yet to totally understand others beliefs on the trinity. God is the Father, Jesus is the Son and the Holy Spirit is to guide us...All things are created by God. Jesus came from God He is a part of God but he is not God the Father...this is Bible based. I will have to ask about the co-equal. I don't know if co-equal is equal as in Jesus is without sin and pure or co-equal in standing....really I believe all this is getting too deep and really doesn't matter a whole lot....Fellowship, love and praising God and living according to Jesus' teachings is the most important principles. We will be getting a paper to sign next week if we wish to become members of the church...it is suppose to consist of how we will love one another, not gossip about one another and other ways of behaving...I'll let you know after next Sunday what they say co-equal means and what the paper to sign says....I really hope this is the place for me. The people are great and I really come away with a better outlook. It is not a condeming church it preaches the good news and is uplifting. Nothing else I figure I remain a visitor.

Thanks for responses....look forward to scripture.

Love and God Bless.

 

[Messenger]

Blackhawk, this church isn't like many I became a member at....you don't just state you want to be a member. You go to 2 classes which tell you how the church was started and where it's going and what their key beliefs are. We are given the key beliefs paper and are able to ask questions...I will be able to ask next Sunday 30th...I just like to have some answers before hand and be prepared and have a better understanding. The church is just a small church that does a lot of missionary work and a lot of things for teens...it seems to be a very loving place and Biblically based...As far as the trinity I see it as a man-made-up doctrine...I believe many who have left the other denominations have left because of too many creeds and doctrines which are called Bible based but seem to be otherwise. I just want the truth according to the Bible anything that conterdicts the Bible I am not interested in. I will hear everyone out and appreciate all of everyone's knowledge...I don't believe anyone has it 100% right or wrong together we can get a greater understanding.

Love and God Bless.

 

[Blackhawk]

Originally posted by Messenger
Blackhawk before becoming a member we receive this key beliefs and go to two classes....I believe the Bible tells us many times that Jesus and God are for one purpose but are separate....Philipians states that equality wasn't for us to grasp so Jesus emptied himself as a servant.

But what do you do about this verse that comes before the verse that you were speaking about.

PHil. 2:6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:

I believe Jesus is here to Glorify God and to bring us to God. I believe this is Bible based. I don't claim to have all the answers but I don't believe any one does except for God Jesus and the Holy Spirit. God Jesus and the Holy Spirit are all for one goal but they distictly have different possitions in which to bring God the Glory. [/B]

Well mostly I agree with you here. I do not have all the answers. I do not think anyone does. But I do believe that w can know somethings for sure. That there are certain core or "key" beliefs that we all should believe. I think you believe this also. But I feel that Jesus being God is one of these beliefs.

I see that the Bible is very clear about it. That God is 3 persons (Father, Son, and Holy Spirit) but that God is one substance. This theological position goes back to Tertullian and I see it when I read the Bible.

So Jesus does have His certain job to do as a person in the Godhead but He is not seperate in substance from the H.S. or God the Father.

To put them together as one I believe is only partially biblical as to separate them completely is. I have yet to totally understand others beliefs on the trinity. God is the Father, Jesus is the Son and the Holy Spirit is to guide us...All things are created by God. Jesus came from God He is a part of God but he is not God the Father...this is Bible based. [/B]

I have no problem with this. Jesus is not God the Father in person but is in substance.

I will have to ask about the co-equal. I don't know if co-equal is equal as in Jesus is without sin and pure or co-equal in standing....really I believe all this is getting too deep and really doesn't matter a whole lot.... [/B]

Actually it means everything. If Jesus was not God then He had a sin nature and He would not be a proper sacrfice for our sins.

Fellowship, love and praising God and living according to Jesus' teachings is the most important principles. We will be getting a paper to sign next week if we wish to become members of the church...it is suppose to consist of how we will love one another, not gossip about one another and other ways of behaving...I'll let you know after next Sunday what they say co-equal means and what the paper to sign says....I really hope this is the place for me. The people are great and I really come away with a better outlook. It is not a condeming church it preaches the good news and is uplifting. Nothing else I figure I remain a visitor.

Thanks for responses....look forward to scripture.

Love and God Bless. [/B]

Well I hope it does work out for you if they do teach the Trinity. I love fellowship but if we are not fellowshipping in the truth then it is not true koinia (sp?)

BH

 

[Blackhawk]

Originally posted by Messenger
Blackhawk, this church isn't like many I became a member at....you don't just state you want to be a member. You go to 2 classes which tell you how the church was started and where it's going and what their key beliefs are. We are given the key beliefs paper and are able to ask questions...I will be able to ask next Sunday 30th...I just like to have some answers before hand and be prepared and have a better understanding. The church is just a small church that does a lot of missionary work and a lot of things for teens...it seems to be a very loving place and Biblically based...As far as the trinity I see it as a man-made-up doctrine...I believe many who have left the other denominations have left because of too many creeds and doctrines which are called Bible based but seem to be otherwise. I just want the truth according to the Bible anything that conterdicts the Bible I am not interested in. I will hear everyone out and appreciate all of everyone's knowledge...I don't believe anyone has it 100% right or wrong together we can get a greater understanding.

Love and God Bless.

Well it is good that they make prospective members go to the classes. I disagree that hte Trinity is man made.

I do also think that possibly that ?I will have to disagree with the way you treat doctrine and theology. i do not wantto misunderstand you so I do apologise if this is not what you believe but...

Well today many think theology and doctrines are not very important. I feel that they are very important. There is essential and nonessential doctrines but it is all very important. We do not want to become nonfeeling theologians but we must balance our lives so that we not only "love God with all of our hearts." but also "with all our minds" aNd without the right essential theology we can't worship the God at all. So I would caution you in what it seems like to me that you are saying. That we can believe what we want to about theology as long as we love God.

Again this might be a misunderstanding of what you are saying but that is what I saw when I read your posts.

blackhawk

 

[Messenger]

Doctrines are made by man....that is what is different from different denominations. The bible can stand alone. God is Love and the Holy Spirit will guide us. This is what is important. Accepting Jesus as our Savior and following in His teachings is essential. Many doctrines confuse and separate. Jesus was about bringing us together. I am not disputing the wrong or rightneous of the doctrines...I at this point find no need for the doctrines....Just the bible. I see doctrines much like I see books written by religious authors...they may be correct they may be incorrect but they are not the Bible. The Bible is the only infalable book everything else is questionable....I at this point don't see the nicene creed as completely biblical. I pray that I will understand more fully and be able to help others understand more fully...but most important is that we love God and love one another. God is a mystery and we don't have to understand nor will we be able to fully understand God but if we accept Jesus and live according to the Bible teachings...it is simple. Man makes it difficult not God.
Love and God Bless.

 

[Blackhawk]

The doctrines of men can be right and they can be wrong but the doctrines God laid down are always correct. Now some doctrines we can disagree on and some we can't. I think you would agree to that. That is if I said A Muslim is going to Heaven even if he does not even believe in Jesus Christ. You would probably say no. Why? Because you have read the Bible and it says that the only way to God is through Jesus Christ. That is doctrine. You can't escape it by saying that "The Bible can stand alone." The Bible is full of doctrines. Amny Jesus taught. Her eare some examples.

"For God so loved the world That he gave His only begotten Son that whosoever believeth in Him shall not perish but have eternal life."

"I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life no one comes to the Father except through me."

These are statements of doctrine. They say that God loves us and that Jesus is the way to God only. (they say more but that is enough)

So we can't escape doctrines or theology if we just use the Bible only. In fact stating that one will only use the Bible is theological position.

I guess one could just read the Bible and never interpret the words and get away with never looking at doctrine or theology but what good would that be?

"but most important is that we love God and love one another."

correct but what do those verse say that you are paraphrasing?

Mat 22:36 "Teacher, which is the great commandment in the Law ?"
Mat 22:37 And He said to him, " 'YOU SHALL LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART, AND WITH ALL YOUR SOUL, AND WITH ALL YOUR MIND.'
Mat 22:38 "This is the great and foremost commandment.
Mat 22:39 "The second is like it, 'YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF.'
Mat 22:40 "On these two commandments depend the whole Law and the Prophets."


sO you can't love God without loving Him with all your being and that includes your mind. Also these 2 greatest commandments are quotes from Old Testament doctrine. Actually direct quotes from the OT.

blackhawk

 

[The Simpleton]

Just a few bits of scripture that I thought I'd throw into the discussion.

John 14
28You have heard Me say to you, "I am going away and coming back to you.' If you loved Me, you would rejoice because I said, 1 "I am going to the Father,' for My Father is greater than I .

This isn't the only time that Christ proclaims that his father is greater than he. Maybe the Church is refering scripture like this.

John 5
18Therefore the Jews sought all the more to kill Him, because He not only broke the Sabbath, but also said that God was His Father, making Himself equal with God . 19Then Jesus answered and said to them, "Most assuredly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of Himself, but what He sees the Father do; for whatever He does, the Son also does in like manner. 20For the Father loves the Son, and shows Him all things that He Himself does; and He will show Him greater works than these, that you may marvel. 21For as the Father raises the dead and gives life to them, even so the Son gives life to whom He will. 22For the Father judges no one, but has committed all judgment to the Son, 23that all should honor the Son just as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent Him .

The Father God has placed Christ in a position way high up. He has all power of judgment over us. We didn't put Christ in this position, God the Father did. To honor the Son is to honor the Father. As you probably know Messenger, I'm with Blackhawk on this issue. I have great respect for you and I know where you’re coming from as we have discussed this issue before but you and me disagree on this one single point concerning the Deity of Christ. I see Christ and the Holy Spirit as part of the Spirit of God. God is Spirit. Christ said so. I'm not so certain that I would say that Christ is equal to God. My hand is not equal to me. Yet it is a part of my body and as such is me. It only does only what I ask it to but it is still me. It is not blasphemy to worship Christ as we do God or to place Christ on the pedestal that we do because God placed Christ on that very pedestal. God wouldn't have done so if we were not to worship Christ just as we do God. That’s where God, not man, has place Christ. But I do not wish to debate you on this issue Messenger.

Before I joined this Church, I would ask the pastor to give you scriptural documentation of why they took the position that they did (Christ equal to God). I admire you Messenger for attempting to find a suitable place of worship for yourself. I need to do the same. I will pray for you to find the perfect place for you.

Your brother in Christ

 

[Messenger]

Bible can stand alone...doctrines must be tested by the Bible. I really don't wish to debate I just wish to understand both sides. I have read and read explainations of the trinity doctrine but the problem is there are too many refrences to God and Jesus separate but after the same purpose. Jesus derives all His power through God...maybe God allowed Him to be equal and therefore He is....I'm not sure but I do know that the trinity has it's flaws or the people explaining the trinity have flaws in the explanation. Jesus is a part of God possible even all God but God is not Jesus...it doesn't work in reverse...does this make sence??? What is the need in trinity other than to confuse. I am serious....I'm not wanting to argue just want answers. I have the answers of the heart...I have been blessed with love and wisdoms of the heart and the way to live but I lack the knowledge of what I guess you call the mind. I hope to understand more fully truely I do. I'd rather believe nothing than to believe a lie. I know what I know but I refuse to pretend to know that of which I don't know. Love and God Bless.

BTW...Thank you....and I really am begining to understand more...the more I read the more I figure out and the more I know thank you for sharing with me in such a kind mannner!

 

[LouisBooth]

"Jesus derives all His power through God"

Not always...
"Jhn 2:19 Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up. "

Hmm...jesus ressurected himself..interesting..especially when looking at other verses that say God did it.....

 

[darkwoof]

Originally posted by Blackhawk
Actually it means everything. If Jesus was not God then He had a sin nature and He would not be a proper sacrfice for our sins.

Eh, not quite so. Sin came into the world when Man disobeyed God. Angels (the ones who are loyal to God) are sinless and yet that doesn't make them God, does it?

Christ was conceived not carnally, but via the Holy Spirit and conceived without sin. That said, he's not "created humanly", but fully human nonetheless.

 

[brotherjohn]

-Hey, everyone. I guess I'm one of the newer additions to the forum. Hope that all is well where you are..

-Please look at John 1:1-2 and John 8:58. These verses point to the deity of Jesus; in John 8:58, Jesus identifies Himself as being God..

-Gotta run; blessing to you and yours!...john.

 

[LouisBooth]

"Angels (the ones who are loyal to God) are sinless and yet that doesn't make them God, does it? "

Angels are not made in the image of God either..so what? The point of this thread was the sinlessness of Christ, not if he was God or not. Please read the previous pages for more details.

 

[darkwoof]

Actually it means everything. If Jesus was not God then He had a sin nature and He would not be a proper sacrfice for our sins.

I was pointing out that in my opinion, Blackhawk's theory that Jesus is sinless *because* he is God cannot really be used... Thus pointing out other beings who were sinless to illustrate that there are other creatures who were not God but sinless nevertheless. Another example of this would be Adam and Eve before the fall. Created in the image of God, they were perfect but yet fully man.

Like Christ who was conceived via His Spirit, Adam and Eve were formed by God Himself, and not through the mortal reproduction method.

While I do believe that Jesus is God (albeit not in exactly the same way as most others), the deity of an entity, in a way, really has nothing to do with his being
sinless... God is sinless, but being sinless doesn't mean you're God.

Hope this clears things up.

 

[Messenger]

Originally posted by LouisBooth
"Angels (the ones who are loyal to God) are sinless and yet that doesn't make them God, does it? "

Angels are not made in the image of God either..so what? The point of this thread was the sinlessness of Christ, not if he was God or not. Please read the previous pages for more details.

 

The point of this thread was is Jesus, the Son of God, co-equal with the Father? The other points of this thread was to see if anyone found anything not Biblical about the Church's Key Beliefs.

Thanks for the responses. Please lets get back to the original topic and I will try not to wonder myself.

Love and God Bless.