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Karl Marx and Friedrich Engels and Darwin

Discussion in 'Creation & Evolution' started by JohnR7, Feb 23, 2007.

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  1. JohnR7

    JohnR7 Well-Known Member

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    Anyone open for a discussion on communism and darwinism?
     
  2. Edx

    Edx Senior Veteran

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    Are you able to do it without strawmen and distortions of history?
     
  3. lemmings

    lemmings Veteran

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    This is absolutely pointless.

    Please John, tell us how an economic philosopher lead to the creation of one of the most important biological theories. Apart from the Cold War and government corruption, why is communism evil?

    A more interesting thread would be debating the “Three Little Pigs” and “The Wizard of Ozz” influence on the modern Creationism movement regarding straw arguments. You could fit a corn maze somewhere in there too.
     
  4. thaumaturgy

    thaumaturgy Well-Known Member

    +858
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    Sure, let me start off:

    [​IMG]













    Karl Marx

    [​IMG]
    Charles Darwin

    1. Both have BEARDS
    2. Both are MEN
    3. Both are from a long time ago
    4. Communism is Evil
    5. Evolution is Evil
    6. ERGO: Communism is Evolution

    Now for a few random bible quotes;

    [bible]Matthew 3:5[/bible]
    [bible]Daniel 5:3[/bible]

    And finally the most damning quote I can find from Marx:

    QED.

    Did I win?
     
  5. FishFace

    FishFace Senior Veteran

    +165
    Atheist
    Pshaw!

    Communism is clearly evil - trying to stop alienation and spread equality, etc etc - we wouldn't want that, now, would we? And, similarly, evolution says we are equal with animals! Egads, they're practically the same theory! Evil, atheist, devil-worshippers.

    Now, some people may be wondering why everyone's just posting a load of nonsense. I put to the house that this is because if you put nonsense in, you get nonsense out. Once I may have reserved judgment (probably, we all would have done) but now I'm too jaded. I cannot remotely conceive of any possible way in which this is anything other than a new brand of logical fallacy - Argumentum ad Disjunctum - argument from irrelevance. The debater in question puts forward an irrelevant position, distorted possibly enough to make them sound linked to the casual lurker.
    It is almost unthinkable that this will be more than strawmen, hand-waving and probably downright falsehood.

    Nonetheless, I await with perhaps foolish anticipation. I might even have something more productive to say if an argument ever arises.
     
  6. [serious]

    [serious] 'As we treat the least of our brothers...' RIP GA Supporter

    +1,654
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    Ok, lets take a look at the two:

    marxism:
    1. theorizes that distribution of wealth will become more uneven as a society progresses until reaching a critical mass at which point the working class will rise up and seize control of the economy and progress toward a uniform distribution of wealth. There are 6 defined stages of social progression begining with anachy and ending with communism.
    2. Theorizes that once the majority of countries progress to communism both currency and government will become vestigial and eventually disappear
    3. Has since been superceded by Russian communism in which a central power acts as a flagship communism which catalyzes other countries to become communist.

    Evolution:
    1. organisms reproduce imprefectly
    2. the genetics of a population will thus tend to maintain a degree of variation
    3. events that selectively prevent a segment of the population from breeding due to a phenotype linked to a genotype will cause a different percentage of that genotype in the population.

    Not so much "apples and oranges" as "apples and bicycles".
     
  7. OdwinOddball

    OdwinOddball Atheist Water Fowl

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    Anyone want to actually stick to one unfounded thread at a time instead of trying to hide out in several others?
     
  8. Upisoft

    Upisoft CEO of a waterfal

    +111
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    Hey! All treads are equal. Eh, some are more equal than others...
     
  9. JohnR7

    JohnR7 Well-Known Member

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    It would appear that denial is more then just a river in egypt. That is fine if no one wants to have a open discussion about evolution. I am sort of tired of dealing with the subject anyways. We can just talk about creation science.
     
  10. CACTUSJACKmankin

    CACTUSJACKmankin Scientist

    +124
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    If they would produce some science, then we might have something to talk about. Cite some peer-reviewed creation research, then we'll talk about creation "science".
     
  11. JohnR7

    JohnR7 Well-Known Member

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    We could talk about some of the things that Marx said about Darwinism.

     
  12. lemmings

    lemmings Veteran

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    Who cares what Marx thought about Darwin’s theory! You have yet to show me anything inherently evil about Marx’s economic theory!! Should we insult the Wright brothers because they invented air travel that allowed Hitler’s army to advance during the blitz???
     
  13. us38

    us38 im in ur mind, disturben ur sanities

    661
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    No, but hows bout a discussion about general relativity and stock market fluctuations? Or computer science and climatology?
     
  14. [serious]

    [serious] 'As we treat the least of our brothers...' RIP GA Supporter

    +1,654
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    I'd venture to guess that Marx also believed in heliocentrism. It doesn't establish a heliocentrism/communism link though.

    Also, from your source: "Having read Darwin's work and mentioned Darwin by name in Das Kapital, it is presumable that Marx may have been influenced to some degree by Darwin, however, the depth of that influence, if any, would certainly seem to be greatly exaggerated by a number of religious fundamentalists that seek to paint Darwin's ideas as incredibly dangerous."
     
  15. JohnR7

    JohnR7 Well-Known Member

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    In China they do not seem to think that Marx is evil. His "lessons" are still taught in the schools there today. The question is are their evolutionary theorys that can be traced back to Marx, sense it seems clear that he was a evolutionist and he had quite a bit to say about evolution.
     
  16. lemmings

    lemmings Veteran

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    You have still not shown us anything absolutely horrible about Communism! The problems with Communism that we see today and during the Cold War are a direct relationship to the government corruption in those areas. We have it too, I don’t believe that there is any large State that does not have some form of corruption.

    If you relate evolutionary principles to economics, you will find Communism is anti-evolution, and Capitalism, the polar opposite of Communism, is pro-evolution.

    PS: Where you spoon feed those many mid-20th century propaganda films when you where a kid?
     
  17. Self Improvement

    Self Improvement Well-Known Member

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    So Marx accepted evolution because he thought it was in line with his economic ideas, not because he knew the science behind it. He was just using it to further his cause.
     
  18. Sleeker

    Sleeker DON'T PANIC

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    How does communism affect the theory of evolution? In fact, doesn't it go against the whole natural selection thing by saying everyone is equal?

    Edit: Does that mean I can say that all creationists commit tax fraud? Sweet...
     
  19. kiwimac

    kiwimac Bishop of the See of Aotearoa ROCCNZ;Theologian Supporter

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    a: Marx had read about Darwin's theories.
    b: I have also read Darwin's theories
    c: Both Marx, Darwin AND I have beards.
    d: ipso facto Marx, Darwin and I are one and the same!
     
  20. lemmings

    lemmings Veteran

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    John has failed to announce why Communism is evil. Or how evolution supports the ‘evil’ Communism rather than Capitalism.
     
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