Kabbalah?

[MachineGod]

The Kabbalah is very interesting, but it isn't some kind of dangerous power that is to be feared as one poster tried to say. The Kabbalah is believed to be birthed by the Key of Solomon and it's ancient fragments, of which is said to be written by King Solomon himself... who is written in the Bible to be the wisest of all men besides Jesus. He combined the pagan wisdom with Judaism (as it's written) including concepts of astrology. This is why Judaism and Christians see it as "dangerous" power. They believe these pagan ways, or power, are real and evil. The Kabbalah is deeply rooted in philosophical theology rested in a belief in magic, and the power of numerology. The Key of Solomon eventually led to the Kabbalah through Nachmanides (13th century Spain), the earliest of the Kabbalists, where it continued to evolve, eventually leading to philisophical concepts of spiritual states of conciousness described as "The Tree of Life".

That is just what I know (or think I know) off the top of my head.
(I didn't want to provide a link, as it may be seen as promoting a religion other than Chrisitianity, but you can find the Key of Solomon and the Second Key of Solomon at sacred text dot com. There's also a bunch more goodies there )

 

[Lifesaver]

I would love to see some sources of that. Multiple links would be good. I could google it, but since you brought it up, why not prove/support it?

Im not talking about this from a religious standpoint either, merely scientific.

Go do some research, DarkWolf. The subconscious does not exist; people do things for the reasons they have in mind. If they do not have a reason in mind, it was not the reason they did what they did.
It is almost axiomatic.

Ill put up a counter-point, its called the study of Human Mating. It is one of the underlying, natural, hard wired functions burned into our brains that dictate much of what we do.

Human beings, some more, some less, have sexual desires. These, far from being subconscious and hidden, are very much present to everyone's mind. Surely, we are not always remembering everything we know, and sometimes we even forget how to access a certain knowledge of ours, as when we try in vain to remember a person's name who has said it many times.
Still, when do something, we know why we are doing it (or at least can know it if we stop to think about it), even when we have more than one reason and put more emphasis in one than in the other.

According to the theory of psychoanalysis, a person will do things not for the reasons they thought they were doing it, but for wholy different ones which are known only by the subconscious, their true self. This true self possesses all the motvations and impulses that the individual cannot logically or morally accept, and thus represses them to the confines of his mind.

The only clues to knowing the subconscious would be to analyze the person's dreams or involuntary actions (like forgetting one's keys in someone else's house) which, given the non-rational determination of their happening (the person didn't consciously choose to dream or do it), give us access to their true deeper self, unhindered by the constraints of reason, morality, etc.

This secret and true self is nothing more than the Kabbalists' divine spark, trapped in the material world, and to liberate it means acknowledging that there is no good and evil, and no difference between existence and non-existence; only with the complete rejection of reason and morality can man truly liberate and know himself, thus re-uniting his spark to the unity of the whole universe back to the absolute nothingness.
This goal of complete individual and universal (again, they are deep down the same) satisfaction is accomplished by letting the freedom-seeking subconscious reign over the opressive and rigid consciousness, which is illusory and shallow. Sexual promiscuity and depravity are the tools of this liberation, taking us to the deeper consciousness about the universe and ourselves.

If you insist on a good article on the subject, here it is:
http://www.come-and-hear.com/editor/freud-with-zohar/

And with Jung the gnostic doctrines become even more explicit.

 

[DaRkWoLf]

If I had 15 posts, Id put up so many links and PDFs tying human mating to the subcontious it would be overkill.

Your link is worthless, its religious based. Send us MANY things from organized scientiffic organizations. Then we may realize that you may have a valid point. Till then, it just sounds like secular religious regurgitate. What would be cool is if someone in this huge online community who is a practicing psycologist attacked the issue of the subcontious from a non-religious standpoint. That would be fun.

Ive done plenty of research. Trust me on that one.

This is so much an attack on anything non-catholic its ridivulous. Comming from me thats a major acheivement. This may be the first time in my life ive ever given that "honor." This Paragraph is what makes me give it to you:

This secret and true self is nothing more than the Kabbalists' divine spark, trapped in the material world, and to liberate it means acknowledging that there is no good and evil, and no difference between existence and non-existence; only with the complete rejection of reason and morality can man truly liberate and know himself, thus re-uniting his spark to the unity of the whole universe back to the absolute nothingness.
This goal of complete individual and universal (again, they are deep down the same) satisfaction is accomplished by letting the freedom-seeking subconscious reign over the opressive and rigid consciousness. Sexual promiscuity and depravity are the tools of this liberation.

Im encouraging you to post numerous, non biased scientific links. Im not a two year old, I say sorry when Im wrong. Go for it.

 

[Lifesaver]

If I had 15 posts, Id put up so many links and PDFs tying human mating to the subcontious it would be overkill.

If you had anything very good, you wouldn't need to "overkill" anything.

Your link is worthless, its religious based.

A Kabbalist attesting that psychoanalysis is exactly that: a derivation from the Kabbalah. The site also gives all the data one needs to have to connect him with the Jewish Gnosis. Freud was very interested in Kabbalistic and esoteric writings; his doctrines match the gnostic doctrines of the Kabbalah completely.
If you still have any doubts and want to learn more of it, and more deeply also, I suggest you read the book Sigmund Freud and the Jewish Mystical Tradition, by David Bakan (though I haven't read it).

To know more about Freud's errors, Why Freud was Wrong, by Richard Webster (the reviews of the book are particularly enlightening).
If you read that book, you will see that Freud himself confided to Ferenczy that his methods did not work, and that he wanted to make money and develop the theory.

Send us MANY things from organized scientiffic organizations. Then we may realize that you may have a valid point. Till then, it just sounds like secular religious regurgitate.

That is exactly what psychoanalysis is: the attempt to secularize and dress as scientific the religious doctrines of the Kabbalah.

What would be cool is if someone in this huge online community who is a practicing psycologist attacked the issue of the subcontious from a non-religious standpoint. That would be fun.

My attacks on it were not religious; I just showed that Freud's theory is a reformulation of the Gnostic religion of Kabbalah. There is nothing religious in this aproach to the subject.
I even gave you all the data and the evidence. On top of that, I provided you with arguments to show the subconscious does not exist.

You, on the other hand, have given absolutely no arguments, but have merely repeated your claim and demanded "more links", besides bragging of how you could prove this or that. DarkWolf, who has something to say says it. Who doesn't, overkills with links and PDFs.
The subconscious does not exist; it is the product of a pseudo-scientific religious doctrine without logical coherence or empirical evidence.
Human sex drive, like the drive for food or water, is a natural urge of animals, man included, which does not constitute a secret and deeper self hidden from the conscious one, which is the only one.

Now, deal with the arguments and the facts, stop evading from them by claiming them to be "religious" and rely less on your claimed Internetical wisdom.

 

[Salubri]

Lifesaver, this thread was meant only to ask question about information regarding the Kabbalah, not OPs about it or the validity of it or whether or not it is evil, etc.

So would everyone please not argue about this here, If you want to, make anew Thread.

 

[AdamAnderson21]

muffler dragon:
Adam:

Have you studied Torah in Hebrew and learned it in the most minute of detail?

Nope. I've relied on research for most of my knowledge of the Kabbalah. I working on it however. I'm a religious studies and psychology major, and will be learning Biblical Hebrew in two years. I've considered becoming Jewish, it is the religion I feel the most connection to. I feel it is sort of the bridge between Eastern and Western religions, and is by far the most complex. It kind of shines a light into the deeper meanings of other religious teachings. It'll take me a lifetime to thouroughly analyze the whole thing. But I believe all religions are essentially the same, so I disperse my time studying what I believe they are all teaching, rather than focusing on just one. I think they all bring something to the table. I spend most of my time with Judaism however.

Right now I've been reasearching the "keys" that unlock everything else. For example Genesis 1 and Ezekiel are seen as containing the keys to prophecy. For example, once you realize what "mayim", or water, represents, you can understand what the story of the flood is about. And similarlly the parallel between the parting of the Sea by Moses and the division of the waters by God. My goal is not neccessairly to go through the entire Bible. I try to focus on what I believe all religions are trying to teach us.

From my research I believe the goal of all religions is to end suffering. Suffering is caused by our perceptions of good and evil. We create this perception to create the perception of freewill. This freewill gives us the perception of control over the future and purpose. In order to view the future as changable, we have to perceive that it is different from the past. When really we are just the result of a series of causes and effects heading invariably to one singular future. Everything was already decided since the Big Bang. So we create the perception of time, so that we can perceive this difference. With time also comes the perception that your own body is slowly decaying. We begin to taste death, and this also creates more suffering. So the ultimate goal is to defeat suffering by destroying our perceptions of good and evil and time.

The unconscious comes into play, because if we knew why we did everything, then we wouldn't be able to trick ourselves into thinking we have control over the future. For example, I was talking to a friend today about this, who is Taoist. He ws stating how he feels that as humans, we cannot get past the fact that things have a beginning and an end. We want to believe, ever since we were kids, that everything, like our lives, begin and ends. It's difficult for us to get past this. Because if we admit there is no beginning or end, then ultimately we are within a system and it becomes impossible to fullt analyze it. It's like a computer program trying to figure out what the computer is.

I never said I agree with Freud completely. I do completely agree that he got alot of his ideas from the Kabbalah and other esoteric sources. I haven't studied Frued all that much, aside from more of his well-known ideas. I do agree with the unconscious idea. That is very important. I'd have to take his other ideas on a case by case issue and decide whether or not I agree with him.

 

[Lifesaver]

I'm sorry for diverging from the original intent of the post, Salubri. But it was done while at the same time more information regarding it was posted, and so I don't think the diversion was complete and fruitless.

But okay, I will not post anymore about its morality or whether it is true or false.

 

[morningstar2651]

I know that Gardnerian Wica has some Kabbalistic influences - though I believe the influence is small.

 

[Salubri]

From what I saw, very small.

Crowlely took a little Kabbalistic or at least Hermetic thought....though in my mind corwely just wanted sex and drugs and thrived in shock value.

 

[morningstar2651]

Crowley had some influence on Gardnerian Wica - especially the third degree initiation. Wica wasn't Crowley's thing though - he wasn't a big fan. He created Thelema.

 

[morningstar2651]

Have fun, kids!

KABBALA DENUDATA

 

[muffler dragon]

Nope. I've relied on research for most of my knowledge of the Kabbalah.

My question is based on what I understand to be the primary criteria for studying Kabbalah. But I do realize that there are groups out there that diverge from that "spec" list.

I working on it however. I'm a religious studies and psychology major, and will be learning Biblical Hebrew in two years.

Very cool. I hope to study Hebrew some day. Maybe as my three-year-old ages.

I've considered becoming Jewish, it is the religion I feel the most connection to. I feel it is sort of the bridge between Eastern and Western religions, and is by far the most complex. It kind of shines a light into the deeper meanings of other religious teachings. It'll take me a lifetime to thouroughly analyze the whole thing.

I'm studying Judaism at this time in my life. I find it very satisfying.

But I believe all religions are essentially the same, so I disperse my time studying what I believe they are all teaching, rather than focusing on just one. I think they all bring something to the table. I spend most of my time with Judaism however.

Cool.

Right now I've been reasearching the "keys" that unlock everything else. For example Genesis 1 and Ezekiel are seen as containing the keys to prophecy. For example, once you realize what "mayim", or water, represents, you can understand what the story of the flood is about. And similarlly the parallel between the parting of the Sea by Moses and the division of the waters by God. My goal is not neccessairly to go through the entire Bible. I try to focus on what I believe all religions are trying to teach us.

From my research I believe the goal of all religions is to end suffering. Suffering is caused by our perceptions of good and evil. We create this perception to create the perception of freewill. This freewill gives us the perception of control over the future and purpose. In order to view the future as changable, we have to perceive that it is different from the past. When really we are just the result of a series of causes and effects heading invariably to one singular future. Everything was already decided since the Big Bang. So we create the perception of time, so that we can perceive this difference. With time also comes the perception that your own body is slowly decaying. We begin to taste death, and this also creates more suffering. So the ultimate goal is to defeat suffering by destroying our perceptions of good and evil and time.

The unconscious comes into play, because if we knew why we did everything, then we wouldn't be able to trick ourselves into thinking we have control over the future. For example, I was talking to a friend today about this, who is Taoist. He ws stating how he feels that as humans, we cannot get past the fact that things have a beginning and an end. We want to believe, ever since we were kids, that everything, like our lives, begin and ends. It's difficult for us to get past this. Because if we admit there is no beginning or end, then ultimately we are within a system and it becomes impossible to fullt analyze it. It's like a computer program trying to figure out what the computer is.

I never said I agree with Freud completely. I do completely agree that he got alot of his ideas from the Kabbalah and other esoteric sources. I haven't studied Frued all that much, aside from more of his well-known ideas. I do agree with the unconscious idea. That is very important. I'd have to take his other ideas on a case by case issue and decide whether or not I agree with him.

Very interesting thoughts and considerations.

 

[AdamAnderson21]

muffler dragon: My question is based on what I understand to be the primary criteria for studying Kabbalah. But I do realize that there are groups out there that diverge from that "spec" list.

Yes, a primary idea of Kabbalah is that it is nearly impossible to understand the Torah, without reading it in its original format. However, there are alot of sources out there that act as "commentary". Like the Talmud is to the Torah. They will present the most important things to understand from a verse. For example, an important thing would be that "Elohim" is plural. What I do is, if I find a verse and want to see more information about grammer, or number values, I'll look it up in Hebrew, look up grammer structures, look up definitions, commentaries, etc. Then connect the ideas that I've already learned. It's like a puzzle! I find it thrilling : )

muffler dragon: Very cool. I hope to study Hebrew some day. Maybe as my three-year-old ages.

It's a great language. Mabye after I study Hebrew, I'll have a kid someday : )

 

[morningstar2651]

A Christian who endorses and condones inappropriate content is NOT a Christian.

A Christian who endorses inappropriate content is a Christian who endorses inappropriate content. Christians sin too -- it's not just us filthy heathens.

What makes the secret Torah code any different?

The secret code in Moby Dick.

 

[corvus_corax]

The secret code in Moby Dick.

That's awesome!
Im bookmarking it and using that every time somebody uses some weird code to justify their 'reading into' the bible

 

[muffler dragon]

That's awesome!
Im bookmarking it and using that every time somebody uses some weird code to justify their 'reading into' the bible

Ditto. That is awesome.

Did anybody glance through the Bible Code book that came out last year? It started talking about Extra-Terrestrials. I thought that was very interesting change in Theology.

 

[pensive]

I know that Gardnerian Wica has some Kabbalistic influences - though I believe the influence is small.

Extremely small. To the point of being almost non-existent. In fact, most of the perception of Kabbalistic influences in Gardnerian Wicca tends to come from the fact that a good number of Gardnerian initiates also have had some (and in some cases, extensive) training in CM, where Kabbalah's influence is much more apparent.

 

[little_lily613]

I do not study Kabbalah (as it is not supposed to be studied at a young age and I am still learning Torah/Talmud) but I do believe in a lot of Kabbalah concepts. After my conversion, I will be Chassidic and Kabbalah has a very deep root is Chassidism; it is a very spiritual, vibrant, mystical movement. I think the Kabbalah helps us to deeply understand Torah--to understand it on a higher level.

Shalom,
~Little_Lily613~

 

[muffler dragon]

I do not study Kabbalah (as it is not supposed to be studied at a young age and I am still learning Torah/Talmud) but I do believe in a lot of Kabbalah concepts. After my conversion, I will be Chassidic and Kabbalah has a very deep root is Chassidism; it is a very spiritual, vibrant, mystical movement. I think the Kabbalah helps us to deeply understand Torah--to understand it on a higher level.

Shalom,
~Little_Lily613~

I wish you the utmost best in your path of being a modern-day Chassid. A lot of dedication.

 

[little_lily613]

I wish you the utmost best in your path of being a modern-day Chassid. A lot of dedication.

Thank you very much! It's going to be a change, that's for sure (there is a population of 4 Chassidim in this entire province). It will be a struggle at first too, but I think it is the right place for me.

G~d bless,
~Little_Lily613~