Justified by faith alone or works?

fhansen

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A man is powerfully convicted of his sin by the Holy Spirit. He sinks to his knees, beating his fists on his chest, with tears streaming down his cheeks. He cries out to God for forgiveness of his sin and asks Christ to be his Saviour.
How will God respond?
Will he say to the man:
I will forgive you, but not yet, only once you have been baptised in water.

Doesn't seem right to me
God can do whatever He pleases of course. And where we lack knowledge of God's will He certainly wouldn't hold that against us. But I'll bet Cornelius, for one, was baptized soon in obedience to Jesus's commands. "If you love Me you'll keep my commands" John 14:15. Anyway, the words Jesus spoke in John 3:5 weren't spoken for no reason. And we have Acts 8:36-38:

As they traveled along the road, they came to some water and the eunuch said, “Look, here is water. What can stand in the way of my being baptized?” And Philip said, "If you believe with all your heart, you may." And he answered and said, "I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God." And he gave orders to stop the chariot. Then both Philip and the eunuch went down into the water and Philip baptized him.
 
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stuart lawrence

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God can do whatever He pleases of course. And where we lack knowledge of God's will He certainly wouldn't hold that against us. But I'll bet Cornelius, for one, was baptized soon in obedience to Jesus's commands. "If you love Me you'll keep my commands" John 14:15. Anyway, the words Jesus spoke in John 3:5 weren't spoken for no reason. And we have Acts 8:36-38:

As they traveled along the road, they came to some water and the eunuch said, “Look, here is water. What can stand in the way of my being baptized?” And Philip said, "If you believe with all your heart, you may." And he answered and said, "I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God." And he gave orders to stop the chariot. Then both Philip and the eunuch went down into the water and Philip baptized him.

Once again, I believe all Christians should be baptised in water. There is no disagreement there.
However, you do not have to firstly be baptised in water in order to receive the Holy Spirit, as the bible clearly shows. And if you have received the Holy Spirit you have been born again, you are in a saved state.
That is the only point I am making
 
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def

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FYI - I already explained this to him several pages ago. He just does not accept it.

I would not advise anyone to go down that rabbit hole again.

Someone said that insanity is doing the same thing over and over again, but expecting different results.
 
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fhansen

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Calvin said in regards to election: "All are not created on equal terms, but some are preordained to eternal life, others to eternal damnation; and, accordingly, as each has been created for one or other of these ends, we say that he has been predestinated to life or to death."

Calvin does not explain why God has done so, only that it was done according to His infinite love and inscrutable wisdom, that out of the condemned, many He purposed to be saved from His wrath.
The biggest problem I have with this, with all due respect, is that this plan would seem to lack much in the way of either infinite love or inscrutable wisdom, not to mention the fact that it doesn't agree with the older churches as well as many others. Unless man's will is involved in some way, however tiny, beginning with Adam, in his participating in choosing the good over the evil, in heeding God's voice over the adversary‘s lies, pretty much free from constraint or overriding influence, then the entire drama of life, here in this exile from Eden especially, appears to be a shallow, fruitless, and futile game. God could have and may as well have averted all the evil that has ensued in this world since the Fall, and simply brought about the good-for some-of electing them to salvation/heaven and the evil-for the rest-of predestining them to damnation, from the beginning.

Because unless man’s will is involved there's no purpose to life between birth and our final destinies, other than to fall one way or the other in the end depending on God's whim. And that just plain puts the cart ahead of the horse. We don't even know with certainty who's saved and who's not, who will persevere and who won’t, for that matter.

Either way, with this theology, with man’s will uninvolved or determined, God effectively becomes the sole author of sin/evil it would seem. But if I, as an individual human being, have a choice in the matter, regardless of whether or not God in His omniscience foreknows that choice, if I can learn from the experience of good and evil, with the help of revelation and grace, to choose the good alone, then my salvation hinges on God’s saving grace, without which salvation is completely impossible, but not without my consent, my cooperating in working out my salvation with He who works in me.

This, it seems to me, contains a great deal more love and wisdom, and is consistent with our experience in life in general, with consequences resulting from our choices. In this God has a purpose greater than simply saving some otherwise worthless wretches deserving of hell. Rather His whole plan from the beginning would be to ultimately bring about a greater good out of the evil of the Fall, as a part of ultimately, patiently, molding and perfecting His creation-us-whom He so greatly loves and desires to come into union with Him. As we increasingly align our wills with His, as we become transformed into His image, our justice increases. And in the end He judges how well that’s been accomplished.
 
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GillDouglas

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The biggest problem I have with this, with all due respect, is that this plan would seem to lack much in the way of either infinite love or inscrutable wisdom, not to mention the fact that it doesn't agree with the older churches as well as many others. Unless man's will is involved in some way, however tiny, beginning with Adam, in his participating in choosing the good over the evil, in heeding God's voice over the adversary‘s lies, pretty much free from constraint or overriding influence, then the entire drama of life, here in this exile from Eden especially, appears to be a shallow, fruitless, and futile game. God could have and may as well have averted all the evil that has ensued in this world since the Fall, and simply brought about the good-for some-of electing them to salvation/heaven and the evil-for the rest-of predestining them to damnation, from the beginning.

Because unless man’s will is involved there's no purpose to life between birth and our final destinies, other than to fall one way or the other in the end depending on God's whim. And that just plain puts the cart ahead of the horse. We don't even know with certainty who's saved and who's not, who will persevere and who won’t, for that matter.

Either way, with this theology, with man’s will uninvolved or determined, God effectively becomes the sole author of sin/evil it would seem. But if I, as an individual human being, have a choice in the matter, regardless of whether or not God in His omniscience foreknows that choice, if I can learn from the experience of good and evil, with the help of revelation and grace, to choose the good alone, then my salvation hinges on God’s saving grace, without which salvation is completely impossible, but not without my consent, my cooperating in working out my salvation with He who works in me.

This, it seems to me, contains a great deal more love and wisdom, and is consistent with our experience in life in general, with consequences resulting from our choices. In this God has a purpose greater than simply saving some otherwise worthless wretches deserving of hell. Rather His whole plan from the beginning would be to ultimately bring about a greater good out of the evil of the Fall, as a part of ultimately, patiently, molding and perfecting His creation-us-whom He so greatly loves and desires to come into union with Him. As we increasingly align our wills with His, as we become transformed into His image, our justice increases. And in the end He judges how well that’s been accomplished.
The Theist will say that God is Sovereign, and because God is Sovereign men cannot be free. The Deist disagrees and believes that God does not govern His creation. What decisions men make are based on what God allows. Men cannot act outside of God's will. Whatsoever He has ordained will come to pass.
 
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fhansen

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Once again, I believe all Christians should be baptised in water. There is no disagreement there.
However, you do not have to firstly be baptised in water in order to receive the Holy Spirit, as the bible clearly shows. And if you have received the Holy Spirit you have been born again, you are in a saved state.
That is the only point I am making
And that's a reasonable enough point, even as there's been a great deal of controversy on it over the years. But either way I appreciate the teaching I'm familiar with that says that baptism for an adult would not be valid without the participant having genuine faith. This, of course, could only be determined by God with certainty.
 
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Traveling teacher

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Calvin was under Luther's disciple or mentor....
They were both anti-Jew especially Luther...
Martin Luther's book THE JEWS AND THEIR LIES.....1543 ad
Martin Luther - "The Jews & Their Lies"

His hatred and written persecution of the Jews were the roots that led to the Nazi holacaust in ww2

If their fruit was ungodly then their writtings must also be suspect......!!!!!
 
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fhansen

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The Theist will say that God is Sovereign, and because God is Sovereign men cannot be free. The Deist disagrees and believes that God does not govern His creation. What decisions men make are based on what God allows. Men cannot act outside of God's will. Whatsoever He has ordained will come to pass.
The point is that, as a matter of sovereign decree, God allows choices that oppose His will-that's what free will would necessarily consist of in fact. Would you say that God's mere existence determines whether or not man can make free choices? If there was no God, then man's choices would be free, but with God they cannot be?

Either way, we're told to pray in the Our Father, "Thy will be done" because of the very real possibility of it not being done. Because if God's will is being carried out during every atrocious act committed by one human being against another, or if God wanted Adam to eat of the fruit when he commanded him not to, then the concept of a distinction between good and evil is rendered pretty much absurd, and there wouldn't be much guarantee that heaven would be any better than hell it would seem.
 
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faroukfarouk

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Looking at the original question, it's lucky to refer to Ephesians chapter 2 v 8-9, because, when you look it up, verse 10 comes next, and then you have the whole of that.

Paul agrees fully with James, but often it takes Paul chapters to get around to it. Here it is faster:

8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—
9 not by works, so that no one can boast.
10 For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

Another nice place to read Paul repeating James (but in different wording of course) is in the wonderful chapters 5 and 6 of Galatians, which should be read entirely, as a whole.
Studied closely, Ephesians 2 and James's Epistle are actually in harmony! :)
 
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GillDouglas

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Either way, we're told to pray in the Our Father, "Thy will be done" because of the very real possibility of it not being done. Because if God's will is being carried out during every atrocious act committed by one human being against another, or if God wanted Adam to eat of the fruit when he commanded him not to, then the concept of a distinction between good and evil are rendered pretty much absurd, and there wouldn't be much guarantee that heaven would be any better than hell it would seem.

I know that this is a difficult thing to consider when we talk about the will of God. Since we do not know His mind or His plan, we simply cannot grasp how or why any of the things we consider 'bad' fits into the big picture.

In my testimony the story of one of my children (from my first marriage) nearly dying and suffering from brain damage is integral to my conversion. I asked a Christian (the woman who is now my wife) why would God allow such things to happen to an innocent child. Her response was along the lines of this, that there is purpose in ALL things and God will use [my daughter] for a truly unique purpose and will touch many lives in ways others will not. Those words had a profound affect on me, and inevitably I was led to the Lord.

Every act, every event, from the greatest to the most atrocious are a part of the grand plan put into motion by God in eternity. If you think about, if all men are born sinners there is not one that can do one righteous thing, but men still act and in doing so they move the story along in order that God's will be done. There a many examples, the greatest example being the torture, suffering and death of our Savior at the hands of cruel and sinful men.
 
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fhansen

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I know that this is a difficult thing to consider when we talk about the will of God. Since we do not know His mind or His plan, we simply cannot grasp how or why any of the things we consider 'bad' fits into the big picture.

In my testimony the story of one of my children (from my first marriage) nearly dying and suffering from brain damage is integral to my conversion. I asked a Christian (the woman who is now my wife) why would God allow such things to happen to an innocent child. Her response was along the lines of this, that there is purpose in ALL things and God will use [my daughter] for a truly unique purpose and will touch many lives in ways others will not. Those words had a profound affect on me, and inevitably I was led to the Lord.

Every act, every event, from the greatest to the most atrocious are a part of the grand plan put into motion by God in eternity. If you think about, if all men are born sinners there is not one that can do one righteous thing, but men still act and in doing so they move the story along in order that God's will be done. There a many examples, the greatest example being the torture, suffering and death of our Savior at the hands of cruel and sinful men.
Yes, and that suffering or passion goes a long way in letting me know that God not only identifies with our suffering, but also will go to any extent to show His love for us, without forcing us to reciprocate - to prefer His light over the darkness. But this affirms all the more for me that he leaves it to us-as a choice.
 
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yeshuaslavejeff

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I know that this is a difficult thing to consider when we talk about the will of God. Since we do not know His mind or His plan, we simply cannot grasp how or why any of the things we consider 'bad' fits into the big picture.

Who does today know His Will ?
Who today does know His Mind or His Plan ?
Or perhaps simply, more simply, who today understands His Word ?
 
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yeshuaslavejeff

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Someone said that insanity is doing the same thing over and over again, but expecting different results.
Yes, as seen on forums, insanity is increasing, as knowledge of God's Word is decreasing, and the whole world is moving away from God.
---------------
==========
If their fruit was ungodly then their writtings must also be suspect......!!!!!
Sorry - invalid arguments. To know what is true and right, it is necessary to test every message before accepting it or not, according to God's Word.
Look in history regarding the results you talk about ---
it was WONDERFUL FOR MULTITUDES SET FREE from darkness, great darkness enveloping the whole world at the time.

==============================
Studied closely, Ephesians 2 and James's Epistle are actually in harmony! :)
Even just reading lightly,
they are perfectly in harmony ! :)
 
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Traveling teacher

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Yes, as seen on forums, insanity is increasing, as knowledge of God's Word is decreasing, and the whole world is moving away from God.
---------------
==========

Sorry - invalid arguments. To know what is true and right, it is necessary to test every message before accepting it or not, according to God's Word.
Look in history regarding the results you talk about ---
it was WONDERFUL FOR MULTITUDES SET FREE from darkness, great darkness enveloping the whole world at the time.

==============================

Even just reading lightly,
they are perfectly in harmony ! :)


Either way we do not need to hold up Luther as a hero of the faith because of his hatred of the Jews........
We will know them by their fruits!!!!!

By the way are you Jewish??
 
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yeshuaslavejeff

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Either way we do not need to hold up Luther as a hero of the faith because of his hatred of the Jews........
We will know them by their fruits!!!!!
What fruits are you referring to ?

His fruits, correct teachings , faith in JESUS for Salvation as God's Word says,
corrected for millions of souls the path to Salvation, in line with God's Word, that they had not had before, thus as JESUS is the PATH, the LIGHT, the WAY, the TRUTH,
GOD used Luther as God used many different men in the past, even fallible men (how about that! fallible men! )
.....
Other men's fruits > "false teachings" > all conflict with God's Plan and God's Purpose and Salvation in JESUS,
so other men who Luther's GOOD FRUITS expose
often
complain against him, thus complaining against someone God called and God chose to deliver
God's Message of Salvation to millions of souls.

IF someone doesn't like Luther's errors or faults in character,
they can take it up with GOD who called and chose him.
 
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PeaceB

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What fruits are you referring to ?

His fruits, correct teachings , faith in JESUS for Salvation as God's Word says,
corrected for millions of souls the path to Salvation, in line with God's Word, that they had not had before, thus as JESUS is the PATH, the LIGHT, the WAY, the TRUTH,
GOD used Luther as God used many different men in the past, even fallible men (how about that! fallible men! )
.....
Other men's fruits > "false teachings" > all conflict with God's Plan and God's Purpose and Salvation in JESUS,
so other men who Luther's GOOD FRUITS expose
often
complain against him, thus complaining against someone God called and God chose to deliver
God's Message of Salvation to millions of souls.

IF someone doesn't like Luther's errors or faults in character,
they can take it up with GOD who called and chose him.
Well, either that or Satan called him to cause disunity in the Church and to lead people away from the truth. Neither side can be proved with mathematical certainty.
 
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yeshuaslavejeff

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Well, either that or Satan called him to cause disunity in the Church and to lead people away from the truth. Neither side can be proved with mathematical certainty.
Yes, sorry, it was proven with
absolute certainty, many many times, that he brought God's Message back to the people, that had been hidden from them for centuries.
 
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Reformed2

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We are justified by faith, not works. To say otherwise minimizes what Christ did for us at Calvary. Our works is evidence of our faith. However, true faith is not merely intellectual, or passive. It acts. I read somewhere that it is not faith vs works, but faith that works.
 
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We are justified by faith, not works. To say otherwise minimizes what Christ did for us at Calvary. Our works is evidence of our faith. However, true faith is not merely intellectual, or passive. It acts. I read somewhere that it is not faith vs works, but faith that works.
"Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only."

Insert futile attempt to make the verse mean something other than what it states below:
 
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