Justified by faith alone or works?

[fhansen]

I'm not sure this applies to this thread, but if I knew the answer to this then I would know the mind of God.

Yes, or the mind of Calvin anyway.

 

[PeaceB]

As you obviously don't understand, nor can you describe the born again experience and how it practically works out in the Christians life, debate between us would be futile.
And as you appear unable to state the outworking of the basics of the Christian faith in a believers life, why would I go to a denominational church that leaves people devoid of such knowledge?

We are starting to repeat ourselves, aren't we? Have a good day.

 

[fhansen]

As you obviously don't understand, nor can you describe the born again experience and how it practically works out in the Christians life, debate between us would be futile.
And as you appear unable to state the outworking of the basics of the Christian faith in a believers life, why would I go to a denominational church that leaves people devoid of such knowledge?

Catholics believe that God has provided the formal means of publicly professing one's faith with the sacrament of baptism, which is why it's called the "sacrament of faith". Via that faith and profession one is born again and receives the grace to become adopted children of God, washed, cleansed, justified, becoming a new creation with His life now in us, the way it was always meant to be for humankind since the beginning.

 

[PeaceB]

Catholics believe that God has provided the formal means of publicly professing one's faith with the sacrament of baptism, which is why it's called the "sacrament of faith". Via that faith and profession one is born again and receives the grace to become adopted children of God, washed, cleansed, justified, becoming a new creation with His life now in us, the way it was always meant to be for humankind since the beginning.

FYI - I already explained this to him several pages ago. He just does not accept it.

I would not advise anyone to go down that rabbit hole again.

 

[stuart lawrence]

Jesus said to Nicodemus:

Ye MUST be born again
No one can enter the kingdom of heaven unless they are born again

What is born again, and why can you not enter heaven unless you have been born again?

The moment you accept Christ as your saviour the Holy Spirit enters your life. He writes the law on your mind God wants you to keep and places it on your heart.
No longer can you happily sin in ignorance, or without conscience, for the law in your mind means you cannot be ignorant of your sin, and by it being placed on your heart, your conscience will be seered if you wilfully transgress it. It is utterly impossible for a TRULY born again Christian to happily sin as much as they like without conscience. It cannot happen, for they have been born again of the Spirit. They have been supernaturally changed into someone who in their heart wants to obey God, for that is where Gods laws have been placed.
The Christian is not under a law of righteousness, but because the law has been written on their mind and placed on their heart, it is impossible to use this knowledge as a licence to sin.
If the believer was not born again/ if the law was not placed on their heart, they could, by reading the gospel message view grace as a licence to sin.
Jesus will only be your saviour from sin if you have been born again of the Spirit, for he will be no one's saviour from sin unless they in their heart want to live as his Father desires them to. Hence:

Ye MUST be born again
No one can see the kingdom if God unless they are born again.
The first part of the NC cuts out a licence to sin, for your sins and lawless deeds will be remembered no more

 

[fhansen]

FYI - I already explained this to him several pages ago. He just does not accept it.

I would not advise anyone to go down that rabbit hole again.

Ok, I haven't kept up with the whole thread.

 

[stuart lawrence]

Catholics believe that God has provided the formal means of publicly professing one's faith with the sacrament of baptism, which is why it's called the "sacrament of faith". Via that faith and profession one is born again and receives the grace to become adopted children of God, washed, cleansed, justified, becoming a new creation with His life now in us, the way it was always meant to be for humankind since the beginning.

If the Holy Spirit has entered your life you have been born again. For the Spirit only dwells in saved people, not the unsaved.
Cornelius and his household received the Holy Spirit as the disciples did at Pentecost PRIOR to being baptised in water

 

[stuart lawrence]

FYI - I already explained this to him several pages ago. He just does not accept it.

I would not advise anyone to go down that rabbit hole again.

FYI
You could not explain to me the practical outworking of being born again in a believers life

 

[PeaceB]

If the Holy Spirit has entered your life you have been born again. For the Spirit only dwells in saved people, not the unsaved.
Cornelius and his household received the Holy Spirit as the disciples did at Pentecost PRIOR to being baptised in water

None of us are named Cornelius. Keep trying.

 

[GillDouglas]

Thank you. I would like to discuss it. Although there are some aspects that I would have trouble agreeing with, overall the Calvinist view on grace seems to be logical and based in Scripture.

Absolutely understandable. The points in which most people take issue involve God's authority and man's inability. I would refer you to following snippets, to get you studying and thinking about the individual points:

(1) - I already touched on man's inability (the T), due to his spiritual condition. Understanding that men have no power of this realm (spiritual) is a key point to demonstrating God's authority.

(2) - I like to use the story of individuals like Jacob when you consider election (the U). We understand God's intentions for him with his words to Rebekah and see how even the sinful choices of Jacob fulfill God's plans.

(3) - Because the Father commissioned His Son to enter this world and lay down His life to save His people, the atonement of his work must be definite (the L).

(4) - If one has a good grasp of man's condition (the T), understanding the effectual call of the Holy Spirit (the I), comes a lot easier.

(5) - God desires that all of His people are saved, and no one that the Father gives to the Son will be lost (the P).

I understand that you may not ever agree with them, but the understanding is not necessary for ones salvation.

 

[stuart lawrence]

None of us are named Cornelius. Keep trying.

I have to say, that is the most ridiculous response to a post I have ever come across on the Internet.
Well done!

 

[fhansen]

If the Holy Spirit has entered your life you have been born again. For the Spirit only dwells in saved people, not the unsaved.
Cornelius and his household received the Holy Spirit as the disciples did at Pentecost PRIOR to being baptised in water

None of us are named Cornelius. Keep trying.

Yes, and God can work any which way He wants of course; He's not bound by any one way of doing anything. But He provided a simple means, so that we can know how to proceed and know we've done His will, as He informs us that no one can enter the kingdom of heaven unless he's been born of water and Spirit. And the oldest churches just happen to have continuously understood it in this way.

 

[GillDouglas]

Yes, or the mind of Calvin anyway.

Calvin said in regards to election: "All are not created on equal terms, but some are preordained to eternal life, others to eternal damnation; and, accordingly, as each has been created for one or other of these ends, we say that he has been predestinated to life or to death."

Calvin does not explain why God has done so, only that it was done according to His infinite love and inscrutable wisdom, that out of the condemned, many He purposed to be saved from His wrath.

 

[stuart lawrence]

Yes, and God can work any which way He wants of course; He's not bound by any one way of doing anything. But He provided a simple means, so that we can know how to proceed and know we've done His will, as He informs us that no one can enter the kingdom of heaven unless he's been born of water and Spirit. And the oldest churches just happen to have continuously understood it in this way.

Your first pope, I am sure understood the proof of salvation is the Holy Spirit dwelling in a believer. And he was there when Cornelius and his household received the Holy Spirit.
The bible must, for me be the bottom line, not any particular denomination

 

[stuart lawrence]

A man is powerfully convicted of his sin by the Holy Spirit. He sinks to his knees, beating his fists on his chest, with tears streaming down his cheeks. He cries out to God for forgiveness of his sin and asks Christ to be his Saviour.
How will God respond?
Will he say to the man:
I will forgive you, but not yet, only once you have been baptised in water.

Doesn't seem right to me

 

[W2L]

A man is powerfully convicted of his sin by the Holy Spirit. He sinks to his knees, beating his fists on his chest, with tears streaming down his cheeks. He cries out to God for forgiveness of his sin and asks Christ to be his Saviour.
How will God respond?
Will he say to the man:
I will forgive you, but not yet, only once you have been baptised in water.

Doesn't seem right to me

1 Corinthians 1:17 For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel, not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of no effect.

Romans 10:10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

 

[stuart lawrence]

Yes, and God can work any which way He wants of course; He's not bound by any one way of doing anything. But He provided a simple means, so that we can know how to proceed and know we've done His will, as He informs us that no one can enter the kingdom of heaven unless he's been born of water and Spirit. And the oldest churches just happen to have continuously understood it in this way.

May I ask why Peter was your first pope, as James was the head of the Jerusalem church?

 

[disciple1]

Now before this gets out of hand, let me explain my title.

I do not believe works can save a perhaps, in a legalistic sense. What I mean is this:

Does a faith based upon words only save a person, or does faith based upon works save?

John wrote that we should love not in word, but in deed. This is how we tell who truly belongs to God, by what a person does, not says.

James is well known for the following: Faith without works is dead being alone. Some will say, “You have faith and I have works.” Show me your faith apart from your works, and I will show you my faith by my works.

Jesus even said that those who fed the hungry, clothed the poor, cared for the sick would receive eternal life. Those who did not and ignored the needy who be condemned.

Yet a prevailing doctrine in most church circles is Grace alone saves and a person only need to say the sinners prayer.

This is based off Eph 2:8-9,

By grace you are saved through faith...

but I offer a different view on this scripture.

As an act of grace, God saves those who have faith in him (and demonstrate that faith).

It is not God's grace that saves, but a person faith, demonstrated faith, that saves them. If God's grace saved then all would be saved, because God wants all to be saved. So there has to be more to it, a personal, human element to the equation.

But I digress.

Now what works do the Bible say demonstrate living faith for salvation?

While it is never a good idea to make doctrine from historical books, the actions of those in Acts verify and validate doctrine of the eternal church.

Acts 2:38 - Repent and be baptized for the remission of sins.

While repentance can not be immediately observed, baptism is something an individual can do to show their faith in Christ immediately for salvation.

What else?

As already mentioned, John writes that those who say they belong to God must love one another. Love being more than just words, love meaning to give the worlds goods to those that need them, and not closing your heart off to them.

So in my estimation, faith expressed only in word is not enough to save a soul. Only the faith that is demonstrated by works can save a soul.

I do leave open the idea that God can save those who profess faith in Him as a dying request. His ways are infinitely more than any of us can understand.

Galatians chapter 5 verse 6
The only thing that counts is faith expressing itself in love.

 

[fhansen]

May I ask why Peter was your first pope, as James was the head of the Jerusalem church?

Every church had its own bishop. Presumably the Church of Jerusalem became less and less influential, especially after 70 AD. Either way they had their beginnings in antiquity. Not sure why you're asking.

 

[fhansen]

Your first pope, I am sure understood the proof of salvation is the Holy Spirit dwelling in a believer. And he was there when Cornelius and his household received the Holy Spirit.
The bible must, for me be the bottom line, not any particular denomination

Jesus words suffice in John 3:5.