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"JUSTIFICATION": to the wicked, or to the just?

Discussion in 'Salvation (Soteriology)' started by DaDaBrothers, Sep 6, 2021.

  1. fhansen

    fhansen Oldbie

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    We have to keep in mind that man is lost-totally incapable of finding himself, of finding the true God who locates and finds us, who brings us home, a home we’re made for and yet somehow already vaguely familiar with. He must initiate; we respond. He first knocks; we open. We have His image impressed inside; we possess a suppressed or obscured knowledge of Him, but only He can reveal and offer the treasure: of Himself. Once cut off from Him, as fallen man is, we have no means to reach up until He reaches down first. We’re simply incapable.

    The point is that God orchestrates the entire process of justification/salvation. And yet, man has his role. He must respond, he must say yes, and cooperate with God in a walk of faith, ready to blossom into hope and, most importantly, love, all of which are both gifts from God and human choices, made daily. We’re not forced to open the door and invite Him in, or keep Him in.
     
  2. DaDaBrothers

    DaDaBrothers Member

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    The God of Israel is "[...]not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance." He is "reaching down" already to everyone and has always been:

    Ezekiel 33:11 Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?

    John the Baptist preached repentance, Jesus preched repentance, the Apostles preached repentance, is what is preached in His name, is to repent:

    Luke 24:47 And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.

    So, He is always "reaching down" calling them to repentance, now its just up to us:

    Isaiah 59:1 Behold, the Lord's hand is not shortened, that it cannot save; neither his ear heavy, that it cannot hear:
    2 But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid his face from you, that he will not hear.

    Our "reach up" is when we repent, and we can repent anytime, because His helping hand has been always "reaching down", it is "all" up to us now, since He is always "reaching down" all we have to do is repent.

    Luke 15:10 Likewise, I say unto you, there is joy in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner that repenteth.
     
  3. prophecy_uk

    prophecy_uk Active Member

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    DaDa: "Our "reach up" is when we repent, and we can repent anytime, because His helping hand has been always "reaching down", it is "all" up to us now, since He is always "reaching down" all we have to do is repent."

    Luke 15:10 Likewise, I say unto you, there is joy in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner that repenteth.



    What sinner repents, when they are so wicked, they despise the words of righteousness, and make a mockery out of God, like their sport, on top of fulfilling the predictions of speaking evil of the Lords dignities?


    Unfortunately for them, they state they can repent any time, but they are unable to acknowledge the testimony of God, which is godliness to acknowledge these things, so are ungodly when they even deny them instead.

    Repentence is the gift of God, it is not of them who will, but of God that shows mercy..



    2 Timothy 2:25 In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;

    Titus 1:1 Paul, a servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God's elect, and the acknowledging of the truth which is after godliness;

    Romans 9:15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
    16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
     
  4. prophecy_uk

    prophecy_uk Active Member

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    fhanson: " And yet, man has his role. He must respond, he must say yes, and cooperate with God in a walk of faith, ready to blossom into hope and, most importantly, love, all of which are both gifts from God and human choices, made daily. We’re not forced to open the door and invite Him in, or keep Him in."



    In Christ is yes, in man is nay..


    2 Corinthians 1:17 When I therefore was thus minded, did I use lightness? or the things that I purpose, do I purpose according to the flesh, that with me there should be yea yea, and nay nay?
    18 But as God is true, our word toward you was not yea and nay.
    19 For the Son of God, Jesus Christ, who was preached among you by us, even by me and Silvanus and Timotheus, was not yea and nay, but in him was yea.
    20 For all the promises of God in him are yea, and in him Amen, unto the glory of God by us.


    Faith is the gift of God..

    Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

    1 Corinthians 12:9 To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;

    Galatians 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,




    Hanson "all of which are both gifts from God and human choices, made daily"



    They are all by God, unless you can say what you have, that you were not given..

    1 Corinthians 4:7 For who maketh thee to differ from another? and what hast thou that thou didst not receive? now if thou didst receive it, why dost thou glory, as if thou hadst not received it?




    Hanson "We’re not forced to open the door and invite Him in, or keep Him in."



    The answer was told by the disciples, when many went away, they were given to know that this is God, and there is nowhere else to go..


    John 6:64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.
    65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.
    66 From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.
    67 Then said Jesus unto the twelve, Will ye also go away?
    68 Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life.
    69 And we believe and are sure that thou art that Christ, the Son of the living God.
     
  5. prophecy_uk

    prophecy_uk Active Member

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    This is for you two who seem a little confused, who think we do things by our own will..


    Proverbs 19:27 Cease, my son, to hear the instruction that causeth to err from the words of knowledge.

    Proverbs 23:4 Labour not to be rich: cease from thine own wisdom.
    5 Wilt thou set thine eyes upon that which is not? for riches certainly make themselves wings; they fly away as an eagle toward heaven.


    Proverbs 16:9 A man's heart deviseth his way: but the Lord directeth his steps.

    Proverbs 20:24 Man's goings are of the Lord; how can a man then understand his own way?

    Psalm 37:23 The steps of a good man are ordered by the Lord: and he delighteth in his way.

    Isaiah 30:21 And thine ears shall hear a word behind thee, saying, This is the way, walk ye in it, when ye turn to the right hand, and when ye turn to the left.

    Jeremiah 10:23 O Lord, I know that the way of man is not in himself: it is not in man that walketh to direct his steps.



    Evil ones now/selfwilled..

    2 Peter 2:10 But chiefly them that walk after the flesh in the lust of uncleanness, and despise government. Presumptuous are they, selfwilled, they are not afraid to speak evil of dignities.
     
  6. fhansen

    fhansen Oldbie

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    Of course we must repent. I didn't say otherwise. That's the first step on our part. But his movement is required in us for even that. It's a subtle difference. But he doesn't overwhelm our wills to accomplish this, but seeks to draw us to that right choice and act.
     
    Last edited: Sep 8, 2021
  7. DaDaBrothers

    DaDaBrothers Member

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    Havent we talked about "gifts", that in terms of justification they are bribery:

    Exodus 23:8"Do not accept bribe[...]"

    The words of the Lamb:

    Luke 13:3 No, I tell you. But unless you repent, you too will all perish.

    Notice that the Lamb tells him, he has to repent.
    He doesnt say: "unless the Father gifts you repentance you will all perish".

    Think about it, if it were the Father who had to "gift them repentance", then it would be the Father who would be "guilty", of anyone who didnt repent. Anyone who didnt repent could just blame it on the Father and say: He didnt "gift me repentance", how could I have repented?
    But because its them who have to repent, then it is their own fault, if they dont repent.

    That is why God tells the to repent, because its not "His gift":

    Ezekiel 18:31 Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will ye die, O house of Israel?
    32 For I have no pleasure in the death of him that dieth, saith the Lord GOD: wherefore turn yourselves, and live ye.

    God says:"Cast away from you" doesnt say "I will cast away from you"; He says "make you" and not "I will make you"; He says "turn yourseves", not "I will turn you".

    Yes, but not entirely, after the Father draws someone they must repent and "turn themselves", since faith without works is dead, they must keep the commandments to have true faith, and the Father will not keep the commandments for them as a "gift", no.
    The works have to be done by man, works like repent and keep the commandments.

    What I see is: guidance, suggestion, advice, correction, instruction, "the Lord directeth his steps.", "And thine ears shall hear a word behind thee, saying, This is the way", "direct".
    All this because we have free will, we choose what voice do we hear, and follow. None of this words means absolute control over man, none of this verses deny free will.
    The strongest word there is "ordered", and it refers to a "good man", who obeys God of his own free will, because he is a good man and delights in the orders of God.

    Having free will does not mean you are evil, you can freely choose to obey God like the "good man" in Psalms 37:23
     
  8. Clare73

    Clare73 Blood-bought

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    They are two different words with two differernt meanings:

    Justify - is to delare "not guilty"--made just by declaration, in right standing with God's justice; righteousness of Christ credited by faith (Romans 4:5), not actual holiness, but right standing with God's justice; i.e., "not guilty."

    Glorify - is to honor, to make glorious (hold in honor, high repute).
    That is, indwelt by God through his Holy Spirit (John 14:16-17).
    Our humanity and his deity remain distinct and separate, as do our human personality and the divine personality.
    Falls somewhat short of a Biblical demonstration of your point.
    You mean Philippians 3:9, and that would be reading Philippians 3:10, which is not the meaning of justification.
    There are two kinds of righteousess in the NT:
    1)righteousness of justification - righteuosness of Christ credited by faith (Romans 4:5)

    2) righteousness of sanctification - leading to holinenss through the Chrisitan life of obedience in the Holy Spirit (Romans 6:19)
     
    Last edited: Sep 8, 2021
  9. DaDaBrothers

    DaDaBrothers Member

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    1) is not justification by the God of Israel, Is the justification from the "unknown God".
    Because the God of Israel does not justify sinners, and commands not to accept bribes.

    2) is the proper way to get justified by the God of Israel, if you repent and keep the commandments, what you call santification.

    So you choose whom do you worship? "Unknown god" or the God of Israel?
     
  10. Clare73

    Clare73 Blood-bought

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    You simply do not believe the NT word of God. . .I do.

    We have no basis for discussion, for we are not agreed on the authority for divine truth.
     
  11. Clare73

    Clare73 Blood-bought

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    We have no basis for discussion, for you do not believe the NT; e.g., Romans 4:5.
     
  12. DaDaBrothers

    DaDaBrothers Member

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    Actually I believe every single word of the bible. And in Romans 4:5 I believe it says "him that justifieth the ungodly".
    And because I believe every single word in the bible, I believe in Exodus 23:7 and I believe it says that the true God of Israel will not justify the wicked.
    So, because I believe the bible, I believe that "him that justifies the ungodly" cannot possibly be refering to the God of Israel, who "will not justify the ungodly".
    Who is it that doesnt believe the bible then?
     
  13. prophecy_uk

    prophecy_uk Active Member

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    Who warns the vipers to flee from the wrath to come ?

    The word is bring forth fruits meet ( worthy of repentance)

    The word continues, every tree that does not bring forth good fruit it cut down ( for ever) cast into the fire..




    Matthew 3:7 But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?
    8 Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance:
    9 And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.
    10 And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.



    Here, continuing to the serpents and generation of vipers, how can they escape the damnation of hell ?

    Israel killed all the prophets, that all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, comes upon that generation.

    How often the Lord would have gathered them ( every time the prophets were sent to warn them) and every time they would not.

    It is told they are desolate, they will never see the Lord until they can say ( granted/enabled to confess/acknowledge) Blessed is He, that comes in the name of the Lord...




    Matthew 23:33 Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?
    34 Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city:
    35 That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar.
    36 Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.
    37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!
    38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.
    39 For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.



    Here they are ( the serpents and vipers/that generation) and Jesus tells Israel, the voice from Heaven came for their sakes, ( while He is among them) and how the judgement of the prince of this world, is also Christ being lifted up from the earth, and He will draw all men unto Him.

    This generation however, cannot understand Christ, and instead of believing in Him ( to have repented worthily)they dispute against Christ...


    John 12:30 Jesus answered and said, This voice came not because of me, but for your sakes.
    31 Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out.
    32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.
    33 This he said, signifying what death he should die.
    34 The people answered him, We have heard out of the law that Christ abideth for ever: and how sayest thou, The Son of man must be lifted up? who is this Son of man?



    Jesus answered back to these of darkness, that they should believe in the light, to be the children of light, but although Jesus did all the miracles in front of them, they believed not in Him, as testified by Isaiah, "Lord, who has believed our report ?"

    Therefore they could not believe, ( nor could the Gentiles) by having their eyes blinded by the Lord, and their heart hardened ( by the Lord, by not being converted, ( by the Holy Ghost being given by the Lord with Christ risen from the dead)..



    Isaiah 30:28 And his breath, as an overflowing stream, shall reach to the midst of the neck, to sift the nations with the sieve of vanity: and there shall be a bridle in the jaws of the people, causing them to err.


    John 12:35 Then Jesus said unto them, Yet a little while is the light with you. Walk while ye have the light, lest darkness come upon you: for he that walketh in darkness knoweth not whither he goeth.
    36 While ye have light, believe in the light, that ye may be the children of light. These things spake Jesus, and departed, and did hide himself from them.
    37 But though he had done so many miracles before them, yet they believed not on him:
    38 That the saying of Esaias the prophet might be fulfilled, which he spake, Lord, who hath believed our report? and to whom hath the arm of the Lord been revealed?
    39 Therefore they could not believe, because that Esaias said again,
    40 He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.
    41 These things said Esaias, when he saw his glory, and spake of him.




    That was why Jesus gave the other parables to Israel ( but were not given to understand by the Spirit of understanding) so they instead of hearing the word to bring forth fruit, they bring forth thorns and briars, having love for this life instead ( as all men do) and again fulfilling what Isaiah said of Christ, by hearing they shall hear, and shall not understand, nor perceive when they see....



    John 12:42 Nevertheless among the chief rulers also many believed on him; but because of the Pharisees they did not confess him, lest they should be put out of the synagogue:
    43 For they loved the praise of men more than the praise of God.

    Matthew 13:11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.

    Matthew 13:13 Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.
    14 And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:




    The Galileans being sinners, died, Jesus tells ( the vipers and serpents) except they repent, they shall all likewise perish.

    Jesus then speaks the parable ( to the vipers, in parables, who are not given to know the mysteries of the Kingdom of Heaven)

    How the vineyard ( which is Israel, as told by Isaiah) brings forth no good fruit, and that the wall ( of Jerusalem ) shall be trodden down laid waste, and then we see the briers and thorns.

    In Luke 13, Jesus continues, how it was dug, and dunged, and when no fruit is found, then it shall be cut down..



    Isaiah 5:4 What could have been done more to my vineyard, that I have not done in it? wherefore, when I looked that it should bring forth grapes, brought it forth wild grapes?
    5 And now go to; I will tell you what I will do to my vineyard: I will take away the hedge thereof, and it shall be eaten up; and break down the wall thereof, and it shall be trodden down:
    6 And I will lay it waste: it shall not be pruned, nor digged; but there shall come up briers and thorns: I will also command the clouds that they rain no rain upon it.


    Luke 13:2 And Jesus answering said unto them, Suppose ye that these Galilaeans were sinners above all the Galilaeans, because they suffered such things?
    3 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.
    4 Or those eighteen, upon whom the tower in Siloam fell, and slew them, think ye that they were sinners above all men that dwelt in Jerusalem?
    5 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.
    6 He spake also this parable; A certain man had a fig tree planted in his vineyard; and he came and sought fruit thereon, and found none.
    7 Then said he unto the dresser of his vineyard, Behold, these three years I come seeking fruit on this fig tree, and find none: cut it down; why cumbereth it the ground?
    8 And he answering said unto him, Lord, let it alone this year also, till I shall dig about it, and dung it:
    9 And if it bear fruit, well: and if not, then after that thou shalt cut it down.




    In case we think Jesus saying repent, or all will perish, meant they would then go and repent ?

    Jesus finishes the chapter and testimony to ( Jerusalem) Israel, how often He would have gathered them, but they would not, as they killed the prophets who were sent to them. Again as told earlier, their house is left desolate, they will not see the Lord until ( granted repentance) they say, Blessed is He, that comes in the name of the Lord..



    Luke 13:34 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, which killest the prophets, and stonest them that are sent unto thee; how often would I have gathered thy children together, as a hen doth gather her brood under her wings, and ye would not!
    35 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate: and verily I say unto you, Ye shall not see me, until the time come when ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.



    After Jesus is risen and glorified, this is the time the Spirit is given.

    Peter now speaking with the Spirit, testifies to Israel, how through ignorance they desired a murderer instead of the Prince of life, and gives the message again, to repent, to be converted ( as it has to be fruits WORTHY of repentance)

    The rulers put Peter in prison, but many believed who heard the word, and the multitude of them that believed, were of one heart, and of one soul, but they had all things common...



    Acts 3:17 And now, brethren, I wot that through ignorance ye did it, as did also your rulers.
    18 But those things, which God before had shewed by the mouth of all his prophets, that Christ should suffer, he hath so fulfilled.
    19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord.

    Acts 4;3 And they laid hands on them, and put them in hold unto the next day: for it was now eventide.
    4 Howbeit many of them which heard the word believed; and the number of the men was about five thousand.

    Acts 4:32 And the multitude of them that believed were of one heart and of one soul: neither said any of them that ought of the things which he possessed was his own; but they had all things common.




    Then Stephen testifies against the rulers of Israel, and all Israel, ( Stephen also filled with the Holy Ghost) how they always resist the Holy Ghost, and they are are guilty of persecuting and killing the prophets, who showed before the coming of the just one, who they now were the betrayers and murderers of ( they also murder Stephen now)...


    Acts 7:51 Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye.
    52 Which of the prophets have not your fathers persecuted? and they have slain them which shewed before of the coming of the Just One; of whom ye have been now the betrayers and murderers:




    Paul, who had aided the murderers, is chosen by God to now repent, and to continue where Stephen was, testifying against the Jews, who, as Paul confirms, killed the Lord Jesus, and their own prophets, and forbid to speak to the Gentiles that they might be saved, which fills up their sin always, as the wrath ( of the Lord) is come upon them to the uttermost...



    1 Thessalonians 2:15 Who both killed the Lord Jesus, and their own prophets, and have persecuted us; and they please not God, and are contrary to all men:
    16 Forbidding us to speak to the Gentiles that they might be saved, to fill up their sins alway: for the wrath is come upon them to the uttermost.




    Then we understand Paul is the Apostle to the Gentiles, as light came to the Gentiles in darkness ( which is repentance when granted).

    First though, Peter testifies for the Gentiles, how he that fears God, working righteousness, is accepted with the Lord.

    Peter also testifies, how not to all, but certain witnesses the Lord appeared risen up, to the Apostles and disciples, chosen of the Lord, and as Peter testified of the Lord Jesus, on the Gentiles was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost...

    Peter retold the matter to the believing Jews, how God gave the like gift as He did to those chosen disciples and Apostles, and all concluded that God also, has granted repentance unto life to the Gentiles..




    Acts 10:35 But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.

    Acts 10:40 Him God raised up the third day, and shewed him openly;
    41 Not to all the people, but unto witnesses chosen before God, even to us, who did eat and drink with him after he rose from the dead.

    Acts 10:44 While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.
    45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.

    Acts 11:17 Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as he did unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I, that I could withstand God?
    18 When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.




    To prove again, that repentance has to be granted by the Lord ( or they have no heart to perceive with until that new heart is given and the Spirit of Christ given for repentance) we see that the Spirit of the fear of the Lord rests upon Christ, Isaiah 11:2.

    This, combined with the new covenant, that is everlasting, is the Lord putting His fear in our hearts ( as the ones accepted with the Lord are who fears Him and works righteousness)..



    Isaiah 11:2 And the spirit of the Lord shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the Lord;

    Jeremiah 32:40 And I will make an everlasting covenant with them, that I will not turn away from them, to do them good; but I will put my fear in their hearts, that they shall not depart from me.




    DaDaBrothers: "The words of the Lamb:

    Luke 13:3 No, I tell you. But unless you repent, you too will all perish.

    Notice that the Lamb tells him, he has to repent.
    He doesnt say: "unless the Father gifts you repentance you will all perish"."
     
  14. prophecy_uk

    prophecy_uk Active Member

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    Abraham was justified by works, and we then see how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only, so justification requires more, to be truly justified, and just..



    James 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
    22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
    23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
    24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.



    This is again, what Romans 4, confirms, to believe on God who justifies the ungodly, to count the faith as righteousness, as David also confirmed ( speaking about Christ coming to take our sins off us, onto His cross) that God imputes righteousness without works, it is by forgiving our iniquities and covering our sins ( by Himself taking our sins on the cross)



    Romans 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
    6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,
    7 Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.




    Clare "You mean Philippians 3:9, and that would be reading Philippians 3:10, which is not the meaning of justification."


    Yes I mean what is told above in both James and Romans, to not have our own righteousness, but that which is of the faith of Jesus Christ, which is by God, and that faith is:

    To know Christs power of His resurrection ( or no sins were forgiven and covered by His resurrection) to have the fellowship of those sufferings ( of His death and always bearing about in our body the dying of the Lord Jesus) which is us being made conformable to His death( as the death in us of the Lord is also the life of the Lord in us)..




    Philippians 3:9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:
    10 That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death;


    2 Corinthians 4:10 Always bearing about in the body the dying of the Lord Jesus, that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our body.
    11 For we which live are always delivered unto death for Jesus' sake, that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our mortal flesh.

    Romans 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.







    Clare: "There are two kinds of righteousess in the NT:

    1)righteousness of justification - righteuosness of Christ credited by faith (Romans 4:5)

    2) righteousness of sanctification - leading to holinenss through the Chrisitan life of obedience in the Holy Spirit (Romans 6:19)



    As I said Clare, our way of taking the singular verses to speak, what you want to say, cannot work next to showing what the verses all say, in harmony together.


    The sins are covered ( by believing in both the death and rising of the Lord in us in faith)

    That is of course to be made free from sin ( buried with Him in baptism wherein we are also risen with Him through the faith of the operation of God) and to become servants of God at once, as that is the gift of God..



    Romans 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
    6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,
    7 Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.

    Romans 6:19 I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness.
    20 For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness.
    21 What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things is death.
    22 But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.
    23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
     
  15. prophecy_uk

    prophecy_uk Active Member

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    fhanson:

    "It's a subtle difference."




    How about, our minds not being corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ, by that subtilty of the serpent, as they are full of subtilty, and all mischief, they are the child of the devil, the enemy of all righteousness, who do not cease to pervert the right ways of the Lord..


    Acts 13:10 And said, O full of all subtilty and all mischief, thou child of the devil, thou enemy of all righteousness, wilt thou not cease to pervert the right ways of the Lord?

    2 Corinthians 11:3 But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.




    hanson: " But he doesn't overwhelm our wills to accomplish this, but seeks to draw us to that right choice and act."



    Sounds like good words and a fair speech,

    But, we mark those who cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine of Christ, and their obedience came abroad to all men, who are simple to what is concerning evil, and wise unto that which is good, and the God of peace ( and simplicity) shall bruise satan ( the crooked subtil serpent) under our feet shortly..


    Romans 16:17 Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them.
    18 For they that are such serve not our Lord Jesus Christ, but their own belly; and by good words and fair speeches deceive the hearts of the simple.
    19 For your obedience is come abroad unto all men. I am glad therefore on your behalf: but yet I would have you wise unto that which is good, and simple concerning evil.
    20 And the God of peace shall bruise Satan under your feet shortly. The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you. Amen.
     
  16. DaDaBrothers

    DaDaBrothers Member

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    The vipers are not given to know the mysteries of the Kingdom, because they didnt repent, and didnt confess Jesus Christ in the flesh, because they didnt repent, they are not given understanding of the Kingdom. Nowhere it says they were not given repentance, dont mix the two.

    Luke 13:34 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, which killest the prophets, and stonest them that are sent unto thee; how often would I have gathered thy children together, as a hen doth gather her brood under her wings, and ye would not!

    On the contrary, when it comes to repentance, it is always a free will choice, they "would not" repent, it doesnt say: God "would not give them repentance". And I have showed you examples, those you had to ignore, so maybe you just werent given the understanding to see how repentance is our doing, and after we repent we receive the understanding and spirit.
     
  17. DaDaBrothers

    DaDaBrothers Member

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    So, you can resist the Holy Ghost, proving again they have free will, and can only obey God if they are willing to do so, they have to repent themselves, God will not "gift them repentance", He will not even hear them unless they repent first:

    Isaiah 59:1 Behold, the Lord's hand is not shortened, that it cannot save; neither his ear heavy, that it cannot hear:
    2 But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid his face from you, that he will not hear.
     
  18. Doug Brents

    Doug Brents Member

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    Hmmm

    A couple of thoughts here.
    First, the righteous are not in need of justification, so only the sinner needs to be justified.

    Second, through grace (the unmerited gift), God exchanges a sinner’s unrighteousness with Jesus’ righteousness. So the sinner is justified by God.

    Third, this gift is not received through belief, but through faith (belief in action), just as Abraham was justified by the act of sacrificing Isaac (not just believing God’s promise, but in acting as though he believed and trusted God to follow through, no matter what happened).

    So yes, it is God who justifies sinners by the transposition of his sins for Jesus’ righteousness.
     
  19. DaDaBrothers

    DaDaBrothers Member

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    The sinner needs to repent and become righteous before he can be justified by God.

    The God of Israel would never do such a thing:
    Exodus 23:7 [..]thou shalt not justify the wicked for gifts.

    Your "unmerited gift" is bribery:
    Exodus 23:8 "Do not accept bribe[...]"

    Because the Judgement of God is perfect, there are no mistakes nor "free gifts":
    "[...]I never declare a guilty person to be innocent."

    Same goes with Jesus: He will not justify the wicked.

    Not the God of Israel, He will never justify a sinner, when you try to say He does, for a bribe, you call Him an abomination, making you a false accuser of God:
    Proverbs 17:15 One who justifies the wicked and one who condemns the righteous, Both of them alike are an abomination to the LORD.

    Or you are talking about an "unknown god" who justifies sinners and bribes them, and believe on an abomination, dont think this abomination of a "god" will ever justify anyone.
     
  20. Doug Brents

    Doug Brents Member

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    Certainly, belief leads to righteousness (Rom 10:10), confession of Jesus’ name leads to salvation (Rom 10:10), repentance leads to salvation (2 Cor 7:10), baptism brings about the removal of sin, union with Christ, the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, and resurrection from the death of sin (Rom 6:1-11, Col 2:11-14, Acts 2:38, Mark 16:16).

    Agreed, God will not justify the wicked.
    But He does impute Jesus’ righteousness to us, just as our unrighteousness is imputed to Jesus, when we are baptized into Christ and become one with Him (2 Cor 5:22).

    There is only one God. And He sacrificed His Son in order to create the possibility of salvation. Without the perfect Lamb, Jesus, there would be no righteousness to impute to us.
     
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