Justification: Faith (and works?)

[Maniel]

I'm having a conversation with a catholic friend. I'm trying to understand justification from his view and the protestant view that I was raised in.

Ephesians 2:8 says: For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9not a result of works, so that no one may boast.

But then it also says: 10For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

So there is at least some sort of work that is mentioned. As I understand justification from the catholic teaching, we are saved by faith, and then by the grace of God we are able to produce the good works that is needed for our salvation.

James 2:14-26 go on to say: if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him?

Catholics are emphasising James quite a bit as I understand, while Luther considered if it should even be a part of the canon. What exactly does James mean? There seem to be some contradictions at the surface which is why there's different opinions I'm sure.

Romans 5 says: 1Therefore, since we have been justified by faith, wea have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ. 2Through him we have also obtained access by faithb into this grace in which we stand, and wec rejoiced in hope of the glory of God.

Another example that by faith we are justified. Paul goes on to say that faith is a gift.

Romans 6 goes on to say: 1 What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin that grace may abound? 2By no means! How can we who died to sin still live in it? 3Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death?

So Paul is talking about how we shouldn't continue in sin, that our baptism leads us to be Born Again, following Christ, being obedient, being in a relationship with Him. So this is some kind of works that is needed, but at the same time it's: For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9not a result of works?

My friend is pointing out this verse to me in Philippians 2:12: Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

That we are to work out our salvation continually. I'm having a hard time understanding these "contradictions" or nuances of what faith really means. Is the catholic teahcing Luther was protesting the same in the 1500s as today? Is the catholic teaching and protestant much closer today?

I feel that by faith we are saved is very reassuring. I need the grace of God, otherwise I'm simply lost if I'm saved by works. But I naturally want to try, I want to follow Jesus, because I see how damaging sin is to my life and our society at large. I look up unto the divinity of God, His holiness, I'm longing for that to happen. I believe in love.

Does the dispute happen when Catholics is saying, that it's by faith we are saved and the works we are given by God's grace - Where the protestant want to say; it's by faith alone, and from that relationship good works should occur to some degree naturally if it's genuine, but isolated, works are dead and won't save you?

If you are able to help me out, thank you.

Sincerely, Mathias

 

[chevyontheriver]

I'm having a conversation with a catholic friend. I'm trying to understand justification from his view and the protestant view that I was raised in.

Ephesians 2:8 says: For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9not a result of works, so that no one may boast.

But then it also says: 10For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

So there is at least some sort of work that is mentioned. As I understand justification from the catholic teaching, we are saved by faith, and then by the grace of God we are able to produce the good works that is needed for our salvation.

James 2:14-26 go on to say: if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him?

Catholics are emphasising James quite a bit as I understand, while Luther considered if it should even be a part of the canon. What exactly does James mean? There seem to be some contradictions at the surface which is why there's different opinions I'm sure.

Romans 5 says: 1Therefore, since we have been justified by faith, wea have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ. 2Through him we have also obtained access by faithb into this grace in which we stand, and wec rejoiced in hope of the glory of God.

Another example that by faith we are justified. Paul goes on to say that faith is a gift.

Romans 6 goes on to say: 1 What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin that grace may abound? 2By no means! How can we who died to sin still live in it? 3Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death?

So Paul is talking about how we shouldn't continue in sin, that our baptism leads us to be Born Again, following Christ, being obedient, being in a relationship with Him. So this is some kind of works that is needed, but at the same time it's: For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9not a result of works?

My friend is pointing out this verse to me in Philippians 2:12: Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

That we are to work out our salvation continually. I'm having a hard time understanding these "contradictions" or nuances of what faith really means. Is the catholic teahcing Luther was protesting the same in the 1500s as today? Is the catholic teaching and protestant much closer today?

I feel that by faith we are saved is very reassuring. I need the grace of God, otherwise I'm simply lost if I'm saved by works. But I naturally want to try, I want to follow Jesus, because I see how damaging sin is to my life and our society at large. I look up unto the divinity of God, His holiness, I'm longing for that to happen. I believe in love.

Does the dispute happen when Catholics is saying, that it's by faith we are saved and the works we are given by God's grace - Where the protestant want to say; it's by faith alone, and from that relationship good works should occur to some degree naturally if it's genuine, but isolated, works are dead and won't save you?

If you are able to help me out, thank you.

Sincerely, Mathias

You do know, don't you, that the Lutherans and Catholics came to an agreement on all of this already? Well, not all Lutherans.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joint_Declaration_on_the_Doctrine_of_Justification

 

[Maniel]

You do know, don't you, that the Lutherans and Catholics came to an agreement on all of this already? Well, not all Lutherans.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joint_Declaration_on_the_Doctrine_of_Justification

Actually I didn't. I was just reading William Lane Craig's Defenders class where he is discussing why he isn't a catholic, and he named justification as one of the main reasons his not. But he is a baptist, perhaps they see things differently.
My own father also has a hard stance on Catholics, as he seem to think that Catholics believe in both faith and works for our salvation.

 

[anna ~ grace]

Yep. Basically faith justifies us and our works done within the context of faith in Christ justify us, too. Both faith and our works in Christ are fueled by God’s grace. Faith without works can not save us. Faith is vital, but faith with no discipleship, no love, no sacrifice, and no mercy is worthless. God’s grace works out our salvation in us; as we trust in, abide in, follow, live for, obey, and become more like Christ.

 

[anna ~ grace]

Council of Trent on Justification

 

[chevyontheriver]

Actually I didn't. I was just reading William Lane Craig's Defenders class where he is discussing why he isn't a catholic, and he named justification as one of the main reasons his not. But he is a baptist, perhaps they see things differently.
My own father also has a hard stance on Catholics, as he seem to think that Catholics believe in both faith and works for our salvation.

It's never that simple. Polemicists still convince people of the 'simple' opposition between Catholic teaching and their own teaching. But the little secret is that many of these Protestant polemicists disagree violently with each other about justification.

Try this. Find the decrees of the council of Trent. Read the whole of chapter six. You will find plenty there to get angry about. But read to see what they actually affirm. Lots of people have done that and been shocked to see that they agree with what the council of Trent affirms.

What the council of Trent condemns is sometimes a caricature of actual Protestant sayings. So it has to be read in a more limited way as there may not be anybody out there today that actually holds the condemned position just as there may never have been anybody at the time who held the condemned position. There has been a lot of caricaturization on both sides.

 

[Maniel]

Council of Trent on Justification

Thank you I will make sure to read it.

It's never that simple. Polemicists still convince people of the 'simple' opposition between Catholic teaching and their own teaching. But the little secret is that many of these Protestant polemicists disagree violently with each other about justification.

Try this. Find the decrees of the council of Trent. Read the whole of chapter six. You will find plenty there to get angry about. But read to see what they actually affirm. Lots of people have done that and been shocked to see that they agree with what the council of Trent affirms.

What the council of Trent condemns is sometimes a caricature of actual Protestant sayings. So it has to be read in a more limited way as there may not be anybody out there today that actually holds the condemned position just as there may never have been anybody at the time who held the condemned position. There has been a lot of caricaturization on both sides.

I see. Then there seem to be no dispute at all. Thank you! I wonder if the same happens with the pope and the authority the Catholic church claims. I still have trouble understanding this, but will try. This should be my next focus I think.

 

[christian1724]

I'm having a conversation with a catholic friend. I'm trying to understand justification from his view and the protestant view that I was raised in.

Ephesians 2:8 says: For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9not a result of works, so that no one may boast.

....

Most people confuse the terms 'faith' and 'belief'.

"Faith" is action that you take on a held belief. For example, I believe the Bible contains the Word of God. Therefore, I pray for understanding of the Bible and I begin studying it in preparation that God will grace me with understanding of it.
For another example, I might believe that a charitable organization helps save the lives of children. But until I send them monetary support, all that belief won't actually accomplish anything productive. That would be like a lamp hidden under a bushel or a seed that a farmer never plants.

 

[rturner76]

Yep. Basically faith justifies us and our works done within the context of faith in Christ justify us, too. Both faith and our works in Christ are fueled by God’s grace. Faith without works can not save us. Faith is vital, but faith with no discipleship, no love, no sacrifice, and no mercy is worthless. God’s grace works out our salvation in us; as we trust in, abide in, follow, live for, obey, and become more like Christ.

Well said

 

[HTacianas]

I'm having a conversation with a catholic friend. I'm trying to understand justification from his view and the protestant view that I was raised in.

Ephesians 2:8 says: For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9not a result of works, so that no one may boast.

But then it also says: 10For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

So there is at least some sort of work that is mentioned. As I understand justification from the catholic teaching, we are saved by faith, and then by the grace of God we are able to produce the good works that is needed for our salvation.

James 2:14-26 go on to say: if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him?

Catholics are emphasising James quite a bit as I understand, while Luther considered if it should even be a part of the canon. What exactly does James mean? There seem to be some contradictions at the surface which is why there's different opinions I'm sure.

Romans 5 says: 1Therefore, since we have been justified by faith, wea have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ. 2Through him we have also obtained access by faithb into this grace in which we stand, and wec rejoiced in hope of the glory of God.

Another example that by faith we are justified. Paul goes on to say that faith is a gift.

Romans 6 goes on to say: 1 What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin that grace may abound? 2By no means! How can we who died to sin still live in it? 3Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death?

So Paul is talking about how we shouldn't continue in sin, that our baptism leads us to be Born Again, following Christ, being obedient, being in a relationship with Him. So this is some kind of works that is needed, but at the same time it's: For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9not a result of works?

My friend is pointing out this verse to me in Philippians 2:12: Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

That we are to work out our salvation continually. I'm having a hard time understanding these "contradictions" or nuances of what faith really means. Is the catholic teahcing Luther was protesting the same in the 1500s as today? Is the catholic teaching and protestant much closer today?

I feel that by faith we are saved is very reassuring. I need the grace of God, otherwise I'm simply lost if I'm saved by works. But I naturally want to try, I want to follow Jesus, because I see how damaging sin is to my life and our society at large. I look up unto the divinity of God, His holiness, I'm longing for that to happen. I believe in love.

Does the dispute happen when Catholics is saying, that it's by faith we are saved and the works we are given by God's grace - Where the protestant want to say; it's by faith alone, and from that relationship good works should occur to some degree naturally if it's genuine, but isolated, works are dead and won't save you?

If you are able to help me out, thank you.

Sincerely, Mathias

Ephesians 2:8 is perhaps the most misused verse in the bible. The misuse of it comes from literally taking it out of its context. If you go back to Ephesians 2:1 and read through it, you'll see that the writer is talking about entering into salvation by faith alone. He goes at length to describe all of the sins and evil the Ephesians were wrapped up in previously and points out that God saved them anyway in spite of themselves. The works that are not required for salvation are anything one might do prior. Salvation is not given as a reward for anything anyone has done. It is the free gift of God. But that is only the beginning and not the end as some protestants think it is.

To sum it up, and to put everything into its context, and to avoid contradictions coming from some traditions, it is by faith that we enter into salvation and it is our works that determine if we remain in that salvation.

 

[fhansen]

Actually I didn't. I was just reading William Lane Craig's Defenders class where he is discussing why he isn't a catholic, and he named justification as one of the main reasons his not. But he is a baptist, perhaps they see things differently.
My own father also has a hard stance on Catholics, as he seem to think that Catholics believe in both faith and works for our salvation.

As I understand it Luther, himself, named justication as being the core difference between Protestantism and Catholicism. And I've come to understand this as well, and to understand why the Catholic position is far more sound and in line with the whole of Scripture and with human experience as well. And most Protestants, IMO, actually live more as if the Catholic position is true.

 

[Maniel]

As I understand it Luther, himself, named justication as being at the core of the differences between Protestantism and Catholicism. And I've come to understand this as well, and to understand why the Catholic position is far more sound and in line with the whole of Scripture and with human experience as well. And most Protestants, IMO, actually live more as if the Catholic position is true.

Yes exactly. I have some friends who say they believe in Jesus. But at the same time they live a worldly life. That is not to say I don't sin, and who am I to be a judge them. But as I hear them talk, there don't seem to be any personal relationship with Jesus. My brother said he doesn't feel as Christian as me, he has faith he says, but he also want to live as he please.

So there's this weird thing where I don't feel I can talk to him about works, or what I would call a genuine faith. I feel I would push him away. My father keeps telling him it's all about faith. Faith only. Things just seem to be complicated this way. Faith alone sounds wonderful, and it takes away a lot of the pressure that you feel the need to perform in some way. But that I personally experience the longing and want to follow Jesus. But that translation gets lost to many people it sadly seems.

I'm also confused by many YouTubers that would accuse John Piper for being a false teacher when he introduces some sort of call to works as well. They will say it's faith alone, because you can find bible verses in support of that, right? But the interpretation of what that means seem wildly misunderstood somehow.

So is everyone meaning the same in the end, it's all confusion in the little details?

 

[anna ~ grace]

Yes exactly. I have some friends who say they believe in Jesus. But at the same time they live a worldly life. That is not to say I don't sin, and who am I to be a judge them. But as I hear them talk, there don't seem to be any personal relationship with Jesus. My brother said he doesn't feel as Christian as me, he has faith he says, but he also want to live as he please.

So there's this weird thing where I don't feel I can talk to him about works, or what I would call a genuine faith. I feel I would push him away. My father keeps telling him it's all about faith. Faith only. Things just seem to be complicated this way. Faith alone sounds wonderful, and it takes away a lot of the pressure that you feel the need to perform in some way. But that I personally experience the longing and want to follow Jesus. But that translation gets lost to many people it sadly seems.

I'm also confused by many YouTubers that would accuse John Piper for being a false teacher when he introduces some sort of call to works as well. They will say it's faith alone, because you can find bible verses in support of that, right? But the interpretation of what that means seem wildly misunderstood somehow.

So is everyone meaning the same in the end, it's all confusion in the little details?

I think deep down, many Protestants comprehend that somehow, on some level, works matter. Discipleship matters. Spiritual growth matters.

So, this comes out in their preaching, writing, and words.

Not that many Protestants aren’t doing an awesome job of following Christ; they are. But the emphasis on faith and faith alone can lead people into a stupor. Or, a place where they’re not growing, not repenting, not obeying anything at all, and then wondering why they feel spiritually blasé, and far from Christ.

 

[fhansen]

Yes exactly. I have some friends who say they believe in Jesus. But at the same time they live a worldly life. That is not to say I don't sin, and who am I to be a judge them. But as I hear them talk, there don't seem to be any personal relationship with Jesus. My brother said he doesn't feel as Christian as me, he has faith he says, but he also want to live as he please.

So there's this weird thing where I don't feel I can talk to him about works, or what I would call a genuine faith. I feel I would push him away. My father keeps telling him it's all about faith. Faith only. Things just seem to be complicated this way. Faith alone sounds wonderful, and it takes away a lot of the pressure that you feel the need to perform in some way. But that I personally experience the longing and want to follow Jesus. But that translation gets lost to many people it sadly seems.

I'm also confused by many YouTubers that would accuse John Piper for being a false teacher when he introduces some sort of call to works as well. They will say it's faith alone, because you can find bible verses in support of that, right? But the interpretation of what that means seem wildly misunderstood somehow.

That's part of the problem; there are also differing views on Sola Fide- or what it means to be justifed by faith to begin with. Is man at all still obligated to be personally righteouess under the new covenant? And if not, does that mean that no amount or gravity of sin could cause a loss of justification/salvation? Does fruit count at all, or does it only serve as demonstration of a "true faith", or "saving faith" as they sometimes call it? For its part Catholicism acknowledges the possibily of faith existing without hope or love and yet affirms that we'll be judged on our love at the end of the day. And love, by its nature, works, for the good of others. Also, I think the Lordship Salvation concept recognizes the need to address this whole matter of the need for works-and find a position that really, er, works.

 

[Maniel]

I think deep down, many Protestants comprehend that somehow, on some level, works matter. Discipleship matters. Spiritual growth matters.

So, this comes out in their preaching, writing, and words.

Not that many Protestants aren’t doing an awesome job of following Christ; they are. But the emphasis on faith and faith alone can lead people into a stupor. Or, a place where they’re not growing, not repenting, not obeying anything at all, and then wondering why they feel spiritually blasé, and far from Christ.

Yeah that seems to be it

I love all the answers I get from you Catholics folks. But I wonder what other protestants think on this issue? Or are they the minority here?

 

[fhansen]

Yeah that seems to be it

I love all the answers I get from you Catholics folks. But I wonder what other protestants think on this issue? Or are they the minority here?

There's very serious opposition to the Catholic position, with many believing it to be legalism or "works righteousness". But few really know the teachings themselves- or the background behind them. Or the similarity between the Eastern and Catholic teachings. There's lots of presumption out there.

 

[rturner76]

Ephesians 2:8 is perhaps the most misused verse in the bible. The misuse of it comes from literally taking it out of its context. If you go back to Ephesians 2:1 and read through it, you'll see that the writer is talking about entering into salvation by faith alone. He goes at length to describe all of the sins and evil the Ephesians were wrapped up in previously and points out that God saved them anyway in spite of themselves. The works that are not required for salvation are anything one might do prior. Salvation is not given as a reward for anything anyone has done. It is the free gift of God. But that is only the beginning and not the end as some protestants think it is.

To sum it up, and to put everything into its context, and to avoid contradictions coming from some traditions, it is by faith that we enter into salvation and it is our works that determine if we remain in that salvation.

Nailed it

 

[Soyeong]

I'm having a conversation with a catholic friend. I'm trying to understand justification from his view and the protestant view that I was raised in.

Ephesians 2:8 says: For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9not a result of works, so that no one may boast.

But then it also says: 10For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

So there is at least some sort of work that is mentioned. As I understand justification from the catholic teaching, we are saved by faith, and then by the grace of God we are able to produce the good works that is needed for our salvation.

James 2:14-26 go on to say: if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him?

Catholics are emphasising James quite a bit as I understand, while Luther considered if it should even be a part of the canon. What exactly does James mean? There seem to be some contradictions at the surface which is why there's different opinions I'm sure.

Romans 5 says: 1Therefore, since we have been justified by faith, wea have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ. 2Through him we have also obtained access by faithb into this grace in which we stand, and wec rejoiced in hope of the glory of God.

Another example that by faith we are justified. Paul goes on to say that faith is a gift.

Romans 6 goes on to say: 1 What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin that grace may abound? 2By no means! How can we who died to sin still live in it? 3Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death?

So Paul is talking about how we shouldn't continue in sin, that our baptism leads us to be Born Again, following Christ, being obedient, being in a relationship with Him. So this is some kind of works that is needed, but at the same time it's: For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9not a result of works?

My friend is pointing out this verse to me in Philippians 2:12: Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

That we are to work out our salvation continually. I'm having a hard time understanding these "contradictions" or nuances of what faith really means. Is the catholic teahcing Luther was protesting the same in the 1500s as today? Is the catholic teaching and protestant much closer today?

I feel that by faith we are saved is very reassuring. I need the grace of God, otherwise I'm simply lost if I'm saved by works. But I naturally want to try, I want to follow Jesus, because I see how damaging sin is to my life and our society at large. I look up unto the divinity of God, His holiness, I'm longing for that to happen. I believe in love.

Does the dispute happen when Catholics is saying, that it's by faith we are saved and the works we are given by God's grace - Where the protestant want to say; it's by faith alone, and from that relationship good works should occur to some degree naturally if it's genuine, but isolated, works are dead and won't save you?

If you are able to help me out, thank you.

Sincerely, Mathias

I think that the key to this debate is recognizing that there can be reasons for doing good works other than trying to earn our salvation, so verses that speak against earning our salvation by our works should not be mistaken as speaking against our salvation requiring us to choose to do works for some other reason, such as faith. In Romans 2:13, Paul said that only doers of the law will be justified, while in Romans 4:4-5, he denied that we can earn our justification as a wage, so clearly there must be a reason why our justification requires our obedience to God's law other than in order to earn it as a wage. You are recognizing the same thing in Ephesians 2:8-10, where doing good works plays and integral part of our salvation even though we do not earn it by our works lest anyone should boast.

In Titus 2:11-14, our salvation is described as being trained by grace to do what is godly, righteous, and good, and to renounce doing what is ungodly, so God graciously teaching us to obey His law is itself part of the content of His gift of salvation. It notably does not say that we need to do those things before we can become saved or that we will do those things after we have been saved, but rather it is describing the content of our salvation as being trained by grace to do those things. In Psalms 119:29-30, David wanted to put false ways far from him, for God to be gracious to him by teaching him to obey His law, and he has chosen the way of faithfulness, so this has always been the one and only way of salvation by grace through faith. In Romans 1:5, we have received grace in order to bring about the obedience of faith. Our salvation is from sin (Matthew 1:21) and sin is the transgression of God's law (1 John 3:4), so being trained by grace to live in obedience to God's law through faith is the way to receive the gift of Jesus saving us from living in transgression of God's law. This means that it is impossible to remove our need to choose to do good works from the concept of being saved from not choosing to do those works even though we do not earn our salvation as a wage by doing those works.

 

[Danthemailman]

Man is saved through faith and not by works (Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9); yet genuine faith is (substantiated, evidenced) by works. (James 2:14-26)

Christ saves us through faith based on the merits of His finished work of redemption "alone" and not based on the merits of our works.

It is through faith "in Christ alone" (and not based on the merits of our works) that we are justified on account of Christ (Romans 3:24-38; 4:5-6; 5:1); yet faith that justifies does not remain alone (unfruitful, barren) if it is genuine. (James 2:14-26) *Perfect Harmony*

 

[Maniel]

Thank you guys, that sure all makes it more clear and understandable. Thank you