Justifiable Propaganda? (Ukraine's policy of notifying Russian families of deceased family members)

Pavel Mosko

Arch-Dude of the Apostolic
Site Supporter
Oct 4, 2016
7,236
7,313
56
Boyertown, PA.
✟768,605.00
Country
United States
Faith
Oriental Orthodox
Marital Status
Single
Using facial recognition and social media sniffing software they are able to identify the soldier and notify his family members, sending a pic of their dead soldier son. (The pics are often very graphic) 80% of the time the people notified are enraged at them and want revenge while the other 20% are grateful from the message and the chance to retrieve the body for a service and burial at home. So far they have identified and notified at least 300 Russian families of their lost loved one.

https://theweek.com/russo-ukrainian...ition-to-send-photos-of-dead-russian-soldiers

Ukraine is using facial recognition to ID dead Russian soldiers and send photos of corpses home to their moms: report


Russian Moms Are Being Sent Pictures of Sons’ Corpses From Ukraine


 
Last edited:

cow451

Standing with Ukraine.
Site Supporter
May 29, 2012
41,108
24,128
Hot and Humid
✟1,120,276.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
This is a war. Russians do not have the access to information we have in the US. I don’t like these kinds of things, but Russia invaded and has committed many war crimes. Russia will only quit when they lose the stomach for it.
 
Upvote 0

com7fy8

Well-Known Member
May 22, 2013
13,716
6,139
Massachusetts
✟586,471.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
I looked in Google and checked out the Washington Post's representation >

"Ukraine is scanning faces of dead Russians, then contacting the mothers"

In reaction to this, it seems there are Russians who are wanting revenge against Ukraine, while others are grateful they have been told the truth about their children.

Certain ones are claiming the pictures have been photo-shopped.

And there are Russian soldiers reported to have looted Ukrainian stores, and one even shipped or tried to ship stolen clothing back to his family in Russia, but he got shot . . . by a camera and then put through the facial recognition thing so he has been identified as a war criminal.

So, I see how not all Russians are alike. Not all see things the same way and not all are doing the same things.

One claim seems to be that Ukrainian officials want to make sure Russian people know what is really going on in Ukraine. It is reported that Vladimir Putin's gang has been telling the Russians that not many Russian soldiers are being killed and that Russia is doing well in Ukraine. And Ukraine is using photo recognition to get the real truth out.

But you can't control and often you can not predict how each individual will react.

It seems there are a lot more Russians who are reacting against Ukraine because of seeing photos of the dead soldiers. So, sending them photos could backfire, ones are saying. But even if they want revenge, they might not feel interested in getting more people killed, other Russians' sons killed, in order to get revenge . . . I suppose.

Right now, it seems, Russian leaders still are continuing the fight in Ukraine, while the Russian people may be more and more wise to what's really going on. So, I have to consider that certain leaders in control do not care about those Russian soldiers, and they could care less, really, about what any Russians or anyone else thinks, plus they even could care less about the economy.

This could be a test chess game, for them, so they can learn what are the capabilities of NATO and Ukraine. And may be they feel their lives with their lifestyles depend on maintaining the way they do things, so no one else takes over in Russia and gets rid of them, very likely by killing them. And it seems they have proven their word is no good, at all, for negotiating, since they gave their word that they would not invade Ukraine.

So . . . in my opinion . . . you totally destroy them, or wage a war of unconditional surrender, or resist them however you decide to invest. But predicting what will work . . . I don't think you can know what will or can control the Russian leaders, especially if they feel their staying alive and having the lives they want depends on doing this sort of thing.

They have been getting cornered more and more, maybe we could say. People brought down the USSR. And Russia has been sanctioned, more and more, since then. I see how that can be taken as being cornered, by ones in power in Russia. If you take a bone away from a dog and corner the dog . . . or the wolf or coyote . . . or a male lion . . . or a rat . . . I have been told this will get results.

And I have read how a wild leopard in a cage can react to anyone who gets close to the cage. One can reach out and swat your arm off.

So, now that ones possibly have cornered Russia, what do they have for a plan? What have ones been planning all along, maybe?

In any case, God has His plan which is more and better than any humans could think up, with His results of good, even now.

So, "look up", Jesus says, as we see this world's foolishness with guaranteed failure continue.

"'Now when these things begin to happen, look up and lift up your heads, because your redemption draws near.'" (Luke 21:28)
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

cow451

Standing with Ukraine.
Site Supporter
May 29, 2012
41,108
24,128
Hot and Humid
✟1,120,276.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
‘The Russian army left behind many of its dead soldiers’
From the link:

The retreating Russian army left behind many of the dead bodies of its soldiers, preferring to use the space in their trucks for looted electronic appliances, carpets and clothing from Ukrainian houses and apartments, writes Roman Rukomeda.
 
Upvote 0

Douger

Veteran
Oct 2, 2004
7,054
878
✟165,821.00
Faith
Christian
It's war, and of course there's a propaganda arm who's job it is to support the war effort by coming up with helpful propoganda. Maybe it works, maybe it doesn't, but when you're fighting a losing war like Ukraine is, you throw everything and the kitchen sink and see what works. It isn't over until it's over. We can't say they're losing for lack of trying.
(Of course I totally think they should sue for peace, but that doesn't seem to be something that any Ukranian official has the power to do)

Just remember to take EVERYTHING with a big grain of salt. Over on the Russian side, there are stories to the same effect, with the roles reversed.
 
Upvote 0

cow451

Standing with Ukraine.
Site Supporter
May 29, 2012
41,108
24,128
Hot and Humid
✟1,120,276.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
It's war, and of course there's a propaganda arm who's job it is to support the war effort by coming up with helpful propoganda. Maybe it works, maybe it doesn't, but when you're fighting a losing war like Ukraine is, you throw everything and the kitchen sink and see what works. It isn't over until it's over. We can't say they're losing for lack of trying.
(Of course I totally think they should sue for peace, but that doesn't seem to be something that any Ukranian official has the power to do)

Just remember to take EVERYTHING with a big grain of salt. Over on the Russian side, there are stories to the same effect, with the roles reversed.
Ukraine is pushing Russia back and will win. They are not in the position of needing to beg for peace. Putin’s shelf life is coming to an end in the coming months.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

dms1972

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Feb 26, 2013
5,086
1,305
✟596,524.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Single
Good point. I think that is probably true.

But that is a military tag, It probably identifies what rank, regiment, branch of the armed forces etc they belong too.

American military tags, have things like name and religion, and blood group.

Older Soviet "dog tags" had pretty basic info, something like BC - CCCP (not sure what the BC was) and a Serviceman's Number.
 
Last edited:
  • Informative
Reactions: Pavel Mosko
Upvote 0

Pavel Mosko

Arch-Dude of the Apostolic
Site Supporter
Oct 4, 2016
7,236
7,313
56
Boyertown, PA.
✟768,605.00
Country
United States
Faith
Oriental Orthodox
Marital Status
Single
But that is a military tag, It probably identifies what rank, regiment, branch of the armed forces etc they belong too.

American military tags, have things like name and religion, and blood group.

Yeah I don't think the Russians have anything that specific beyond name and military ID number. The Wagner mercenaries have contact information as far as email, website and phone number.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

dms1972

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Feb 26, 2013
5,086
1,305
✟596,524.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Single
As regards the practice - I don't like it personally, I can completely understand why it might upset and make next of kin angry. They would be upset and perhaps angry even if informed by the Russian channels. I think there is a problem always when wars break out, do we start to accept things that may never have been done before as normal, or do we try to retain our sense of what was normal or decent in the past and reject the new practice as unkind or uncivilised. Basically at least the negative form of the golden rule would seem to be worth attempting to following: "don't do unto others or their families what you would not like them to do you or your family" - a general application in terms of POWs and Refugees and dead servicemen's families, would improve things.



A letter from the Russian Military or Government to families of service personnel would be the normal way for next of kin to find out. Sometimes they cannot always identify a soldier killed in an explosion, or fire, and that can sometimes be the reason that families may not be informed in a timely way, these letters may not be very much comfort sometimes, but I am not sure they would ever be sent a picture of the corpse of their son or daughter?
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Pavel Mosko

Arch-Dude of the Apostolic
Site Supporter
Oct 4, 2016
7,236
7,313
56
Boyertown, PA.
✟768,605.00
Country
United States
Faith
Oriental Orthodox
Marital Status
Single
As regards the practice - I don't like it personally, I can completely understand why it might offend and make next of kin angry. I think there is a problem always when wars break out, do we start to accept things that may never have been done before as normal, or do we try to retain our sense of what was best in the past. A letter from the Russian Military to families of service personel would be the normal way for people to know, sometimes they cannot always identify a soldier killed in an explosion, and that can sometimes be the reason that families may not be told, these may not be very much comfort sometimes, but they would not be sent a picture of the corpse of their son or daughter - so I think people can judge for themselves what to think about this practice.

Yeah that was kind of my thinking too. It reminded me of some other different topics for instance I know of a few people in trying to evangelize among Muslims in the west they have had to take an aggressive stance against Mohammed, the Koran etc. They depict them for what they are, even to the point of using mockery and satire and some Christians claim they are being un-Christian in doing this. But their is such strong denial among Muslims and they have been conditioned to believe that their religion is superior, perfect, and beautiful while Christianity is the opposite that for many, kinder, softer approaches often don't work that well, instead you need to confront them with the facts that they ignore or rationalize away.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

dms1972

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Feb 26, 2013
5,086
1,305
✟596,524.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Single
Yeah that was kind of my thinking too. It reminded me of some other different topics for instance I know of a few people in trying to evangelize among Muslims in the west they have had to take an aggressive stance against Mohammed, the Koran etc. They depict them for what they are, even to the point of using mockery and satire and some Christians claim they are being un-Christian in doing this. But their is such strong denial among Muslims and they have been conditioned to believe that their religion is superior, perfect, and beautiful while Christianity is the opposite that for many, kinder, softer approaches often don't work that well, instead you need to confront them with the facts that they ignore or rationalize away.

I am not sure its the same, a letter from the Russian Government saying either your son or daughter is missing in action, or is known to have been killed in action might be hard to rationalise away. When someone is missing of course its easier to believe they might be alive. But I don't see that the fact that someone's next of kin may not accept their son or daughters death (how is anyone to know?) is reason to bring it home to them with a photo of their corpse on the battlefield. The practice of course might in the process make some of the Ukranians realise this also was a person with a life outside the army, with a family who loved them, and who cared about their welfare and who will be grieved now they have died.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Pavel Mosko

Arch-Dude of the Apostolic
Site Supporter
Oct 4, 2016
7,236
7,313
56
Boyertown, PA.
✟768,605.00
Country
United States
Faith
Oriental Orthodox
Marital Status
Single
I am not sure its the same, a letter from the Russian Government saying either your son or daughter is missing in action, or is known to have been killed in action might be hard to rationalise away. When someone is missing of course its easier to believe they might be alive. But I don't see that the fact that someone's next of kin may not accept their son or daughters death (how is anyone to know?) is reason to bring it home to them with a photo of their corpse on the battlefield. The practice of course might in the process make some of the Ukranians realise this also was a person with a life outside the army, with a family who loved them, and who cared about their welfare and who will be grieved now they have died.


I see it as similar based on the nature of the propaganda, in the case of the Russians it is notions of them winning the war, as well as all the reasons and background for the war like atrocities that they don't hear or or are denied. Especially the way it was sold as far as fighting Nazis etc. This is stuff they would most likely be exposed to if they actually made arrangements to pickup a body.


I say this however with the caveat, that I don't think Ukraine or the US is lily white on things. The Ukrainians have had their problems too going on before and since the war started. And the involvement to advance NATO farther east itself has been questionable, especially when it came to bait Ukraine in, if you didn't know any better you would think some people have been planning a proxy war with Russia for years....
 
Upvote 0

Tom 1

Optimistic sceptic
Site Supporter
Nov 13, 2017
12,212
12,526
Tarnaveni
✟818,769.00
Country
Romania
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Do you mean casualty figures are a state secret in Russia?
Yes, data on casualties, how many dead/injured, in what incidents (e.g. the sinking of the Moskva is still being presented as an accident with few casualties) and anything else that might make the govt or armed forces look bad.
 
  • Friendly
Reactions: dms1972
Upvote 0

dms1972

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Feb 26, 2013
5,086
1,305
✟596,524.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Single
Yes, data on casualties, how many dead/injured, in what incidents (e.g. the sinking of the Moskva is still being presented as an accident with few casualties) and anything else that might make the govt or armed forces look bad.

Do they send letters to the deceased next of kin?
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

dms1972

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Feb 26, 2013
5,086
1,305
✟596,524.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Single
I see it as similar based on the nature of the propaganda, in the case of the Russians it is notions of them winning the war, as well as all the reasons and background for the war like atrocities that they don't hear or or are denied. Especially the way it was sold as far as fighting Nazis etc. This is stuff they would most likely be exposed to if they actually made arrangements to pickup a body.


I say this however with the caveat, that I don't think Ukraine or the US is lily white on things. The Ukrainians have had their problems too going on before and since the war started. And the involvement to advance NATO farther east itself has been questionable, especially when it came to bait Ukraine in, if you didn't know any better you would think some people have been planning a proxy war with Russia for years....

Sorry I looked at the thread title again. I don't quite know if propaganda is as useful sometimes as those who engage in it think it is and given the figures you quote in your original post it doesn't seem to be having the desired effect. Why is it used? Why not just say words to the effect: Russia, you are our neighbour, we don't wish to fight with you, can we talk about ways we might resolve the difficulties we have had? Too simple?
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0