Justice as per Christianity!

bling

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I was not looking for a discussion, but rather hoping for a clear and perhaps even convincing explanation. Despite reading your post #33 several times I was unable to extract a coherent story. Nothing was confusing, other than the fact that no coherent story emerged, though clearly you were making a committed effort to deliver one. Perhaps you could present a precis of your argument.
This all has to do with the whole atonement process, which I could write a book on. Most of the time I am explaining the process to people with strong preconceived ideas, so I go verse by verse explaining the likely alternatives and back into the Greek for definitions. As an agnostic you (I think) would need the logic behind why Jesus went to the cross and what happened, but I really do not know where you are and what preconceived ideas you come with?

The Bible tells us: “the cross is going to be foolishness to the unbeliever”, which from the outsider, is extremely foolish.

Atonement is one of those things much easier experienced then it is explained, it would be better for you to go through having your sinned atoned for then to have me try to explain it to you. Hopefully you have the advantage of not having some doctrinal preconceived ideas give to you by some misinformed Christian teacher.

With that said I will try to explain to you how it works:

Think about this: The very best Loving parent (like God is) has two obligations in dealing with his rebellious disobedient child and that is: 1. To forgive the child unconditionally and 2. If at all possible to see to his/her fair, just, Loving discipline, especially if this is not the first and last time the child will rebel.

Everything is objective driven, so God is doing and allowing everything that has and will happen to happen to help willing individuals fulfill their earthly objective.

Parent who do not see to the fair Loving discipline of their children when given the opportunity are negligent parents. There are lots of wonderful reasons for lovingly disciplining your children: deterrent to them and other siblings, it set the value of the offence, it is a big way the child knows the parent is concerned (Loves) about them, puts the offence behind them, and especially if the parent experiences the disciplining with the child the relationship is strengthened afterward. This all assumes the child is correctly accepting the discipline.

Think about this:

There is a, one of a kind, Tiffany vase on your parent’s mantel that has been handed down by your great grandmother. You, as a young person, get angry with your parents and smash the vase. You are later sorry about it and repent and your loving parent can easily forgive you. Since this was not your first rebellious action your father, in an act of Love, collects every little piece of the vase and you willingly work together with your father hours each night for a month painstakingly gluing the vase back together. The vase is returned to the mantel to be kept as a show piece, but according to Antique Road Show, it is worthless. Working with your father helped you develop a much stronger relationship, comfort in being around him and appreciation for his Love.

Was your father fair/just and would others see this as being fair treatment? Did this “punishment” help resolve the issue?

Was restitution made or was reconciliation made and would you feel comfortable/ justified standing by your father in the future?

Suppose after smashing the vase, repenting and forgiveness, your older brother says he will work with your father putting the vase together, so you can keep up with your social life. Would this scenario allow you to stand comfortable and justified by your father?

Suppose Jesus the magician waved his hands over the smashed vase and restored it perfectly to the previous condition, so there is really very little for you to be forgiven of or for you to do. Would this scenario allow you to stand comfortable and justified by your father?

What are the benefits of being lovingly disciplined?

Suppose it is not you that breaks the vase but your neighbor breaks into your house because he does not like your family being so nice and smashes the Tiffany vase, but he is caught on a security camera. Your father goes to your neighbor with the box of pieces and offers to do the same thing with him as he offered to do with you, but the neighbor refuses. Your father explains: everything is caught on camera and he will be fined and go to jail, but the neighbor, although sorry about being caught, still refuses. The neighbor loses all he has and spends 10 years in jail. So was the neighbor fairly disciplined or fairly punished?

How does the neighbor’s punishment equal your discipline and how is it not equal?

Was the neighbor forgiven and if not why not?

When looking through scripture you will find that punishment is used yet often means negative disciplining (the Greek word is the same).

When we read the New Testament we have to keep in mind the fact we are reading other people’s mail (first century mostly Jewish Christians' mail). The Jews had a huge advantage over us today in that they would have personally experienced the atonement process for very minor sins (unintentional sins) as described in Lev. 5. Reading Lev. 5 we find: As a penalty for the sin they have committed, they must bring to the Lord a female lamb or goat from the flock as a sin offering. Lev. 5 goes on to say the value of the offering is less if you cannot afford an expensive offering. Really trying to equalize the hardship on sinners and this hardship in the atonement process is the significance of the sinner going through the process.

The problem is: If you have to go through all this atonement process for a very minor offence (an accident almost) what would you have to go through for a rebellious disobedient offence?

Under the Old Testament Law there was no atonement for rebellious disobedience toward God, but there was killing or banishing the sinner. Which the Jews really could not do since they would have had to kill and banish everyone including themselves. There was just no fair just way to “discipline” sinners and have them live, so Christ comes to earth.

Here is another poor parable I wrote:

There is battle going on and you as an old man leave your post. The crime is punishable by 40 lashes or equivalent, but that will kill you. Your young innocent grandson offers to take your place and explains to the judge (general) that; 40 lashes on him will cause you tremendous pain, and anguish equivalent to him being lashed. The judge (general) refuses because that would not be just to punish an innocent for the guilty (everyone knows that). The innocent grandson then says: “I will go over to the enemy’s camp for my grandfather’s sake and they will beat me and imprison me until the end of the war”. The Judge (general) cannot stop the young man from doing such a thing and knows this will really hurt the grandfather when you find out, so the judge will not have to punish the grandfather (justice has been served). When you do find out, you plead for the son’s return, but it is to later and besides; there is really no other way for you to be punished and live.

Think about this and get back with me.
 
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Barney2.0

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That if u wrong someone u must ask for their forgiveness and try your best to make up for the wrong. Only if the person forgives can u be forgiven of the wrong so everybody must make sure we never wrong anyone and if we wrong God then we just ask his forgiveness.

Anas (RAA) narrated that Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) said:
“All the sons of Adam are sinners, but the best of sinners are those who repent often.”

Related by At·Tirmidhi and Ibn Majah
A person forgiving you doesn’t make you any less guilty or wipe you clean of the sin committed. Which is why we need the sacrifice of Christ, it’s not a question of God merely forgiving us, forgiveness doesn’t forgive the inherent corruption that we have done to ourselves during our fall from Immortality and grace. Repenting doesn’t make us sinless, how better is it for sinners to no longer be victim to sin and how better is for us to be made back into God’s image. In Mohammadanism God created man with sin, he didn’t make man immortal and free of sin, your God does not fix the damage you’ve done to yourself he created you already damaged, out God made us perfect we damaged ourselves and he fixes us by giving back what we lost. Whose the greater God, I’m sure most people here know which.
 
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