Justice as per Christianity!

[Godistruth1]

Christians usually say jesus paid for our sins and so we have no sin and its justice that sin must be paid for and it was paid by jesus. Can u explain how is it justice?

 

[GospelS]

Judge accepts the payment made by His son on your behalf for He alone is able to pay what the justice demands. So you either get the punishment or you pay with what the judges’ son paid on your behalf. There is no other way to pay off your debts.

 

[Godistruth1]

Judge accepts the payment made by His son on your behalf for He alone is able to pay what the justice demands. So you either choose the punishment or you pay with what the judges’ son paid on your behalf. There is no other way to pay off your debts.

What about if someone killed someone unjustly, or raped anyone, oppressed somebody, did jesus pay for these sins too?

 

[GospelS]

Cogently explained, but it does look superficially as if it is a rejection of personal responsibility. When I look deeper it still looks like a rejection of personal responsibility. Would you comment on that?

If a person avails the providence made, then he/she expresses gratitude by being responsible. If not, the debt still remains. The judge will not be fooled.

 

[GospelS]

What about if someone killed someone unjustly, or raped anyone, oppressed somebody, did jesus pay for these sins too?

Yes. God made us in His image. So every sin committed against another person is a sin committed against God, first. If you respect another person, then you are respecting God.

 

[Godistruth1]

Yes. God made us in His image. So every sin committed against another person is a sin committed against God, first. If you respect another person, then you are respecting God.

Its committed against the person too. So if a country is ruled by Christian law, every murderer, rapist will be forgiven if he just says he has accepted Jesus as his saviour?

 

[Godistruth1]

My answer would be to read the "Parable of the Unforgiving Servant" ( Parable of the Unforgiving Servant - Wikipedia )

Here is a scenario. Let's say I rob you and you want to see me punished for the crime. You go to the judge and he says "You've got some nerve, buddy, after you stole a trillion dollars from me. But I will forgive you of the crime you committed against me, and you need to do the same for cloudyday2."

So essentially if a person recognizes their failings in living up to God's expectations then they naturally will forgive the failings of others. It's an issue of putting it all into perspective to see the big picture as God does.

What about if someone murders someones family including wife and babies would that be forgiven?

 

[GospelS]

Its committed against the person too. So if a country is ruled by Christian law, every murderer, rapist will be forgiven if he just says he has accepted Jesus as his saviour?

This justice is related to the crime committed against God and can be applied by God alone in His kingdom only. Since we do not judge for God, we cannot apply that judgment on earth. God judges for Himself in His kingdom according to His justice.

We only judge for the crime committed against another human. So we can only forgive if the victim is willing to forgive the criminal. God is both the judge and the victim in His kingdom and He forgives who accepted Jesus.

 

[Godistruth1]

Yep, because that is trivial compared to our failings before God. In church services at Easter the passion narrative from the gospels is read. The priest typically takes the role of Pilate seeking to forgive Jesus while the congregation takes the role of the crowds shouting "crucify him!". The idea there is that all humanity has treated God as poorly as the people who crucified Jesus.

Maybe I misunderstand the Christian position, but this is how I understood it when I believed.

I believe its injustice for the victims as they have to suffer very much. Ill stick with my Islamic version

 

[Godistruth1]

This justice is related to the crime committed against God and can be applied by God alone in His kingdom only. Since we do not judge for God, we cannot apply that judgment on earth. God judges for Himself in His kingdom according to His justice.

We only judge for the crime committed against another human. So we can only forgive if the victim is willing to forgive the criminal. God is both the judge and the victim in His kingdom and He forgives who accepted Jesus.

I think ill stick to my version of justice. Thanks

 

[Mediaeval]

Christians usually say jesus paid for our sins and so we have no sin and its justice that sin must be paid for and it was paid by jesus. Can u explain how is it justice?

Christians who hold to the penal substitution theory of the Atonement (PSA) say something like that, and it is a fair question whether it is justice. I am not sure what Christians usually say since there are various views of the Atonement. Saint Isaac the Syrian explained our Lord's sacrifice as solely an expression of love, and this seems closer to what the Bible teaches. In our Lord's sacrifice of Himself, God showed that His love toward us sinners cannot be quenched, and even blasphemy, torture, and murder of the innocent cannot cause God to forsake us. When we understand such great love toward us, we rejoice and are ready to make up for the wrongs we have done, insofar as that is possible.

 

[ViaCrucis]

Christians usually say jesus paid for our sins and so we have no sin and its justice that sin must be paid for and it was paid by jesus. Can u explain how is it justice?

In Christianity there are what are known as "Theories of Atonement", which are, broadly speaking, the ways in which Christians have sought to articulate a theology of Christ's work of reconciling the world to God by His life, death, and resurrection.

A very common Atonement Theory among many modern Protestant Christians is what is known as Penal Substitution Theory, a view which is built upon the earlier Satisfaction Theory developed under St. Anselm of Canterbury and St. Thomas Aquinas (11th century and 13th century respectively).

A brief overview of the history of these ideas might be worth describing:

In the 11th century St. Anselm of Canterbury published a work in Latin titled Cur Deus Homo? Which translates to "Why God Became Man". Anselm's chief purpose was to give a philosophical reasoning for why the Incarnation was necessary. In this work Anselm argues that human beings, by their sin, have offended God's honor (akin to a subject dishonoring his/her lord, keep in mind this was written in feudal era western Europe), as such mankind owed God an honor debt which had to be satisfied. However, there is a catch-22, while it is human beings who owe this debt, it is also impossible for any human being to make satisfaction for this debt. Only one who is God's equal could satisfy such a debt, and yet it has to be a human being to satisfy this debt because it is a human debt. Thus God the Son becomes human: As God He is worthy to make satisfaction, and as a human being He can make this satisfaction on the behalf of human beings. Thus by Christ's perfect and righteous obedience, as the God-Man, He satisfies the debt owed to God, thereby rendering satisfaction for all men.

In the 13th century St. Thomas Aquinas took the ideas presented by Anselm, but placed them in a different context. It is not God's honor which has been offended, rather human beings by their sin have violated God's Law, and thereby have offended justice. Thus what is necessary to be satisfied is Divine Justice. Similarly to Anselm's model, it is Christ as the God-Man who uniquely can satisfy justice by Himself being just. Thus by Christ's righteousness--His justice--He makes satisfaction on behalf of all men.

We don't have Penal Substitution Theory yet, however. Penal Substitution Theory is largely attributed to some of the thinkers of the Protestant Reformation, usually John Calvin and others in the Reformed (i.e. Calvinist) tradition. Where Aquinas argued that Christ satisfies God's justice by His justice on behalf of man; Penal Substitution argues that in order for justice to be meted out it requires penalty of sins--that being death. Therefore in order to satisfy justice there must be death, and thus Christ willingly takes upon Himself the penalty of human sin, by dying on the cross, thereby making satisfaction on behalf of humankind by receiving on Himself willingly that which belonged to men.

So according to Penal Substitution justice is meted out upon Christ by willingly suffering vicariously on our behalf, receiving the full penalty of sin and death.

Note, however, that not all Christians accept Penal Substitution, it is, largely restricted to certain Protestants. The Catholic Church generally accepts Satisfaction Theory. And in the Eastern Churches they embrace what are called the Ransom and Recapitulation Theories. As such the idea that man owes God a debt or that the Atonement is chiefly a judicial act is mostly an idea among the Western Churches.

There are also many Christians in the West today, however, who like the Eastern Churches tend toward the Ransom and Recapitulation Theories of Atonement, or what is often called the Christus Victor Theory.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Godistruth1]

Christians who hold to the penal substitution theory of the Atonement (PSA) say something like that, and it is a fair question whether it is justice. I am not sure what Christians usually say since there are various views of the Atonement. Saint Isaac the Syrian explained our Lord's sacrifice as solely an expression of love, and this seems closer to what the Bible teaches. In our Lord's sacrifice of Himself, God showed that His love toward us sinners cannot be quenched, and even blasphemy, torture, and murder of the innocent cannot cause God to forsake us. When we understand such great love toward us, we rejoice and are ready to make up for the wrongs we have done, insofar as that is possible.

I dont see love when an innocent person has to die for crime somebody else committed. It never works that way

 

[GospelS]

I dont see love when an innocent person has to die for crime somebody else committed. It never works that way

My friend, I see love working all the time when a parent sacrifices their life for their children wrongs, or a spouse taking the suffering on behalf of their partner, or a friend/sibling giving life for the sake of saving their friend/sibling.

 

[Godistruth1]

My friend, I see love working all the time when a parent sacrifices their life for their children wrongs, or a spouse taking the suffering on behalf of their partner, or a friend/sibling giving life for the sake of saving their friend/sibling.

If ones spouse commits murder does any court in the whole world punish his spouse or children?

 

[GospelS]

If ones spouse commits murder does any court in the whole world punish his spouse or children?

Yes, my friend. If that person took the form and face of the one who committed the sin. Imagine you did the wrong and your father emptied himself and took your form and face to save you because he loves you.

Now man cannot change his own form and face but God can because He made us all in His image so He is able to represent all our faces. So, He emptied Himself and took the form and face of a human. God created us through His Son so He sees all our face and form in His Son. Hence, through Him we receive forgiveness as we see our face and form in The Son because we were created through Him, in His image.

 

[Mediaeval]

I dont see love when an innocent person has to die for crime somebody else committed. It never works that way

Love works this way: the innocent loves even the person who misunderstands and wrongs him.

 

[ViaCrucis]

I dont see love when an innocent person has to die for crime somebody else committed. It never works that way

Not what Medieval meant.

The love is in the self-offering of God Himself to the world in and through Jesus. It's Jesus loving the world, loving those who put Him to death. The Victim loving His accusers and murderers.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[bling]

My answer would be to read the "Parable of the Unforgiving Servant" ( Parable of the Unforgiving Servant - Wikipedia )

Here is a scenario. Let's say I rob you and you want to see me punished for the crime. You go to the judge and he says "You've got some nerve, buddy, after you stole a trillion dollars from me. But I will forgive you of the crime you committed against me, and you need to do the same for cloudyday2."

So essentially if a person recognizes their failings in living up to God's expectations then they naturally will forgive the failings of others. It's an issue of putting it all into perspective to see the big picture as God does.

That is not the correct understanding of that parable the forgiving was given unconditionally on God's part, but not accepted by the servant as pure undeserved charity so the transaction of forgiveness was not completed. The King said nothing about what the servant had to do.

 

[GospelS]

I believe its injustice for the victims as they have to suffer very much. Ill stick with my Islamic version

My friend, please tell me what you find injustice in the below passage. Because it is same with all. We will be justly punished in this world for our wrongs. Jesus forgiveness is related to salvation of human souls, not an escape from the punishments we are subjected to in this world. Punishment for rebellion against God is spiritual death/hell which is forgiven. Punishment for crime against another human will be adequately given to the sinners’ physical life unless forgiven by the victim. The criminal is already paying the price for his crime against another human (He was put to death). So that is not forgiven. EVERY crime is also a sin against God which is forgiven by Jesus. So we all pay the price for the wrongs that we do to others unless the victim forgives. Jesus forgives the sin against God and rescues us from God’s punishment.

Luke 23:32-43, Two others also, who were criminals, were being led away to be put to death with Him. When they came to the place called The Skull, there they crucified Him and the criminals, one on the right and the other on the left. One of the criminals who were hanged there was hurling abuse at Him, saying, "Are You not the Christ? Save Yourself and us!" But the other answered, and rebuking him said, "Do you not even fear God, since you are under the same sentence of condemnation? "And we indeed are suffering justly, for we are receiving what we deserve for our deeds; but this man has done nothing wrong." And he was saying, "Jesus, remember me when You come in Your kingdom!" And He said to him, "Truly I say to you, today you shall be with Me in Paradise."