Just how Biblical is the whole "no sex until after the wedding ceremony" thing?

[seeingeyes]

Getting a marriage license in most states requires a witness and certificates as well.

And many Christians get pre-marital counselling from their church and receive approval or confirmation from a minister that they are prepared to make that commitment.

So I am wondering why the final signature on a marriage license by the minister is what makes a couple "married" in God's eyes. Plenty of engaged couple are well beyond the standards of marriage in Biblical times much before the wedding actually takes place. And in many cases (like mine), it is man-made culture of having a big wedding that delays a lot of marriages, because families will not accept couples just going to the courthouse or getting eloped.

I do not consider sex within that relationship "pre-marital" from a Biblical perspective, only a legal one.

I would agree with this except for one thing. Couples who are putting off the wedding date for xyz reasons usually do not consider themselves married. They haven't made any vows to each other except, perhaps, a promise to get married at a future date.

If two people don't consider themselves married and neither does anyone else, it would be a stretch indeed to say that they are married.

Or in other words, whatever the requirements may be, no one accidently gets married.

 

[aiki]

And many Christians get pre-marital counselling from their church and receive approval or confirmation from a minister that they are prepared to make that commitment.

So I am wondering why the final signature on a marriage license by the minister is what makes a couple "married" in God's eyes.

I don't see that it does in Scripture. It is the formal acknowledgement of marriage in the giving away of a woman to a man that marries them to one another. This is how it was in Eden for the first wedding of Adam and Eve and it remained the common practice all through the Bible.

Plenty of engaged couple are well beyond the standards of marriage in Biblical times much before the wedding actually takes place.

Unless the woman has formally been given away to the man for the express purpose of wedding her to the man, they are not biblically married. And this giving away is not the same as our modern engagement. When a woman was given away she was considered married at that point, not soon-to-be married.

And in many cases (like mine), it is man-made culture of having a big wedding that delays a lot of marriages, because families will not accept couples just going to the courthouse or getting eloped.

Yes, much of what surrounds a couple being married today is a hindrance to a good marriage rather than a help.

I do not consider sex within that relationship "pre-marital" from a Biblical perspective, only a legal one.

If the couple has been married by a formal giving away of the woman to the man, then they are, biblically-speaking, married. If not, they are guilty of fornication if they have sex with each other.

Selah.

 

[mathetes123]

Covenants are more solemn than just a private promise; they have witnesses, and symbols, and sometimes certificates (Nehemiah 9:38: "Because of all this we make a firm covenant in writing; on the sealed document are the names of our princes, our Levites, and our priests").

The jews were very meticulous about recording geneologies, so I would expect the marriages would have been recorded by the governing authorities.

 

[seeingeyes]

If the couple has been married by a formal giving away of the woman to the man, then they are, biblically-speaking, married. If not, they are guilty of fornication if they have sex with each other.

I wasn't 'given away' at my wedding. Am I therefore guilty of fornication?

 

[ObeyGODCommandments]

Do you remember yesterday when you told me that I called your (default) name out on one of my post due to the fact that I stated that those who agree that we are free from the law should sin?

Well, I tried to find your default name (Seeingeyes) so I can remove it out of my post, but I found out this morning that it wasn't there to begin with, so do you have a another account on here/so are you running two accounts on here? Be honest.

===========================================================

Originally Posted by Seeingeyes

A marriage covenant is a vow a faithfulness between two people, and God acts as witness to the vow. If you can show me some other definition for the marriage covenant in the Bible, please show me.

Your definition of a Covenant is lacking. A Covenant is a contract or a written agreement or a promise usually under seal between two or more parties especially for the performance of some action.

To answer your question, the only Scripture in the Bible where I can actually find the word (marriage covenant) is in verse Malachi 2:14.

Read the whole verse to Malachi 2:10-16 which talks about Judah's unfaithfulness.

Malachi 2:10-16 Have we not all one Father? Did not one God create us? Why do we profane the covenant of our fathers by breaking faith with one another?
Judah has broken faith. A detestable thing has been committed in Israel and in Jerusalem: Judah has desecrated the sanctuary the Lord loves, by marrying the daughter of a foreign god. As for the man who does this, whoever he may be, may the Lord cut him off from the tents of Jacob—even though he brings offerings to the Lord Almighty.
Another thing you do: You flood the Lord’s altar with tears. You weep and wail because he no longer pays attention to your offerings or accepts them with pleasure from your hands. You ask, “Why?” It is because the Lord is acting as the witness between you and the wife of your youth, because you have broken faith with her, though she is your partner, the wife of your marriage covenant.
Has not [the Lord] made them one? In flesh and spirit they are his. And why one? Because he was seeking godly offspring. So guard yourself in your spirit, and do not break faith with the wife of your youth.
“I hate divorce,” says the Lord God of Israel, “and I hate a man’s covering himself with violence as well as with his garment,” says the Lord Almighty.
So guard yourself in your spirit, and do not break faith.

I didn't answer your other statements due to the fact that it's your own opinion which you did not back up your statements with biblical references, so I have to consider your statements heresy. Atleast I back up my statements with bible verses to make my point which I make my point clear, not twisted. Like I said to the other poster, "DO NOT RELY ON YOUR OWN UNDERSTANDINGS. STUDY THE WORD AND LEARN HOW TO RIGHTLY DIVIDE THE WORD OF TRUTH."

 

[Imperfect SBG]

I have read many of the responses to this thread, though, I admit, not all of them, so I apologize if what you read here is redundant. I have read persuasive stances, particularly convincing arguments, and well thought and researched responses.

Yet, after all, I have but one reminder of something we all know - but sometimes forget.

It's o.k. to say 'I don't know.'

Isaiah 55:8,9 (ESV)

" 8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts,
neither are your ways my ways, declares the Lord.
9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth,
so are my ways higher than your ways
and my thoughts than your thoughts. "

There are many things in this world we are not quite privy to understanding, though try as we may.

Marriage is truly a wonderful thing. I have been married myself for 3 and a half years (starting from the day of our ceremony). We were engaged for just under 5 years, and we have known each other going on 10 years now. I can tell you one thing: I know for a fact, in God's eyes, and in the eyes of the law, we are married. There is no doubt in my mind, or in the minds of any individual we speak to concerning marriage.

Maybe God recognized our marriage when we obeyed our governing body's process for becoming married...?

Maybe it was before...?

Whenever it started, I know for a fact what it is now, and how it came to be.

If you are looking for the Bible to tell you exactly when marriage begins in God's eyes, I believe you'll be looking for quite a long time - it's simply not there.

But where the Word leaves you wanting more, we have a direct line to the Father Himself. Seek out His wisdom.

James 4:17 (ESV)

"So whoever knows the right thing to do and fails to do it, for him it is sin."

I would encourage you to continue to do what is right, and to not become a stumbling block to others.

The legal institute of marriage does not conflict with the biblical definition of what marriage is, so there is no sin in it. Ultimately, having a legal wedding can be a good opportunity to share a facet of the gospel by committing to serve your wife publicly, just as Christ committed to serve the church, and gave Himself up for her.

I pray for wisdom for you as you search for your answers.

 

[seeingeyes]

Do you remember yesterday when you told me that I called your name out on one of my posts due to the fact that I stated that those who agree that we are free from the law should sin?

Well, I tried to find your name so I can remove it out my post your name, but I found out this morning that it wasn't there to begin with, so do you have a another account on here/so are you running two accounts on here? Be honest.

I'll be happy to remove the 'calling out' part.

And no, I just have the one account. I ain't sneaky enough for two. lol Not sure what happened there.

 

[ObeyGODCommandments]

I'll be happy to remove the 'calling out' part.

And no, I just have the one account. I ain't sneaky enough for two. lol Not sure what happened there.

Hmm, okay. I am not sure what happened either I guess.

 

[seeingeyes]

Your definition of a Covenant is lacking.

Is it? I said that: "A marriage covenant is a vow a faithfulness between two people, and God acts as witness to the vow" and I backed that up with Malachi, Proverbs, and Ezekiel. (That was post #233 of this thread.)

A Covenant is a contract or a written agreement or a promise usually under seal between two or more parties especially for the performance of some action.

I'm not sure how this is different than my definition other than mine doesn't specify whether or not such a promise is in writing, and yours makes the written agreement optional.

I didn't answer your other statements due to the fact that it's your own opinion which you did not back up your statements with biblical references, so I have to consider your statements heresy. Atleast I back up my statements with bible verses to make my point which I make my point clear, not twisted. Like I said to the other poster, "DO NOT RELY ON YOUR OWN UNDERSTANDINGS. STUDY THE WORD AND LEARN HOW TO RIGHTLY DIVIDE THE WORD OF TRUTH."

The rest of my post (#235) mostly consisted of what state law requires and doesn't require. There are no verses for that.

Though my whole purpose in this thread could be summed up with 1 Cor 4:6.

 

[CounselorForChrist]

Or in other words, whatever the requirements may be, no one accidently gets married.

Unless they were in vegas and drank to much. ^.^ Of course I am not sure why a chrisitian would be in vegas, but thats besides the point since I am making a joke.

For the topic at hand do people realize this forum is full of many different denominations? Because this is one of those topics where the answers will vary.

 

[seeingeyes]

Unless they were in vegas and drank to much. ^.^ Of course I am not sure why a chrisitian would be in vegas, but thats besides the point since I am making a joke.

Because what happens in Vegas, stays in Vegas. Shhh!

 

[ObeyGODCommandments]

Originally Posted by seeingeyes

Is it? I said that: "A marriage covenant is a vow a faithfulness between two people, and God acts as witness to the vow"

Yes because you said God acts as a witness to the vow, but you forgetting to mention that it consist of other witnesses to, not just God. Marriages should be honor by all according to verse Hebrews 13:4 which says:

(Hebrews 13:4) Let marriage be held in honor by all, and the bed undefiled: but fornicators and adulterers God will judge.

It's not just between the two couples and God.
If you believe that's so, than you want it to just be between the couples and God because you do not believe in a wedding, legal marriages, or a written contract. Just admit that you want people to fornicate and not be bound to the law.

Weren't you the one who said numerous of times that a marriage license is not what God had instituted, or was it someone else that said that? Actually, there were many that said that, so it has to be many including you that argued about this. If not, than I will find out when I go over all the post again.

===============================================================================

Originally Posted by seeingeyes

(And I backed that up with Malachi, Proverbs, and Ezekiel. (That was post #233 of this thread.)

Well, Proverbs 2:17 and Ezekiel 16:8 only mentioned God being married to Jerusalem (it's like a parable, but God expressing his concerns for Jerusalem and how he will restore it in the end).

Since you do not even know that those two verses are speaking about the land of Jerusalem, than this should tell me that you do not understand most of the teachings in the bible. You should be very worried about this.

 

[ObeyGODCommandments]

Originally Posted by seeingeyes

Is it? I said that: "A marriage covenant is a vow a faithfulness between two people, and God acts as witness to the vow"

Yes because you said God acts as a witness to the vow, but you forgetting to mention that it consist of other witnesses to, not just God. Marriages should be honor by all according to verse Hebrews 13:4 which says:

(Hebrews 13:4) Let marriage be held in honor by all, and the bed undefiled: but fornicators and adulterers God will judge.

It's not just between the two couples and God.
If you believe that's so, than you want it to just be between the couples and God because you do not believe in a wedding, legal marriages, or a written contract. Just admit that you want people to fornicate and not be bound to the law.

Weren't you the one who said numerous of times that a marriage license is not what God had instituted, or was it someone else that said that? Actually, there were many that said that, so it has to be many including you that argued about this. If not, than I will find out when I go over all the post again.

===============================================================================

Originally Posted by seeingeyes

(And I backed that up with Malachi, Proverbs, and Ezekiel. (That was post #233 of this thread.)

Well, Proverbs 2:17 and Ezekiel 16:8 only mentioned God being married to Jerusalem (it's like a parable, but God expressing his concerns for Jerusalem and how he will restore it in the end).

Since you do not even know that those two verses are speaking about the land of Jerusalem, than this should tell me that you do not understand most of the teachings in the bible. You should be very worried about this.

 

[ChrisHolland619]

What I hate most about this thread is people seem to be making judgements of myself based on a query. Standing up for Biblical truth is something we are called to do. If I can't find a truth in the Bible..why wouldn't I question it? We are called to seek out truth. That's the point of this thread. To seek truth.

I asked questions and proposed thoughts. I sought biblical council. In the search of truth. If I questioned your responses, it was to further seek truth from you.

 

[brohammer26]

HERE IS SOMETHING THAT I'VE PUT TOGETHER WHICH YOU CAN FIND ALL OF THESE COMMANDMENTS IN THE NEW TESTAMENT TOO:
The acts and the consequences of the sinful nature are obvious: Sexual immorality, adultery, fornication, homosexuality, orgy, inappropriate behavior with animals, sensuality, prostitutes, cross dressers, lust, lewdness, uncleanness, drunkenness, debauchery, revelries, coveting, idolatry, selfishness, pride, conceit, malice, envy, greed, selfish ambitions, evil desires, rivalries, jealousy, treachery, rash, hatred, bitterness, factions, dissensions, contentions, revilers, abusers, anger, rage, revenge, wrath, murderers, swindlers, robbers, thieves, ungrateful, unbelievers, unfaithfulness, disobedient, unforgiving, dishonoring their parents, blood sacrificing, slave traders, kidnappers, perjurers, cowards, astrologers, divination, omen interpreters, psychics, mediums, spiritualists, witchcraft, necromancers, sorcerers, enchanters, division, heretics, hypocrites, scoffers, meddlers, gossipers, slanderers, liars, deceivers, blasphemers, stragglers/strayers, perversity, profanity, ribaldry, and any other wickedness. Those who do such things will not inherit the Kingdom of God/Heaven.

So you are telling me you have not done any of those things??? Your post seems pretty angry..welll that is in the list you have wrote. A lot of of theses are describing basic human emotions that people have through a lifetime....I should give up then.

I must say between how you post and the way your profile is you seem to be trolling...just a hunch..

 

[seeingeyes]

What I hate most about this thread is people seem to be making judgements of myself based on a query. Standing up for Biblical truth is something we are called to do. If I can't find a truth in the Bible..why wouldn't I question it? We are called to seek out truth. That's the point of this thread. To seek truth.

I asked questions and proposed thoughts. I sought biblical council. In the search of truth. If I questioned your responses, it was to further seek truth from you.

My personal advice to you as an 'old' lady: Don't take advice from people you don't want to be like. (And yes, that includes me. )

 

[ObeyGODCommandments]

So you are telling me you have not done any of those things??? Your post seems pretty angry..welll that is in the list you have wrote. A lot of of theses are describing basic human emotions that people have through a lifetime....I should give up then.

I must say between how you post and the way your profile is you seem to be trolling...just a hunch..

It's called correcting, rebuking, and teaching as God had appointed me to do.

2 Timothy 4:2 Preach the Word; be prepared in season and out of season; correct, rebuke and encourage--with great patience and careful instruction.

And yes, I no longer commit any of those sins. I use to lie, steal, and...etc...

 

[brohammer26]

It's called correcting, rebuking, and teaching, as God had appointed me to do.

And yes, I no longer commit any of those sins. I use to lie, steal, and...etc...

really sinfree? you never get angry or jealous or have moments of selfishness....

cmon we all know NO ONE is sin free...in this lifetime..we all fall short of the glory of god. I agree that we should always strive to be the best...but to think that you have reached a level of sinlessness is a sin in itself..

 

[seeingeyes]

Originally Posted by seeingeyes
​

Yes because you said God acts as a witness to the vow, but you forgetting to mention that it consist of other witnesses to, not just God. Marriages should be honor by all according to verse Hebrews 13:4 which says:

(Hebrews 13:4) Let marriage be held in honor by all, and the bed undefiled: but fornicators and adulterers God will judge.

It's not just between the two couples and God.
If you believe that's so, than you want it to just be between the couples and God because you do not believe in a wedding, legal marriages, or a written contract. Just admit that you want people to fornicate and not be bound to the law.

Weren't you the one who said numerous of times that a marriage license is not what God had instituted, or was it someone else that said that? Actually, there were many that said that, so it has to be many including you that argued about this. If not, than I will find out when I go over all the post again.

===============================================================================

Originally Posted by seeingeyes
​

Well, Proverbs 2:17 and Ezekiel 16:8 only mentioned God being married to Jerusalem (it's like a parable, but God expressing his concerns for Jerusalem and how he will restore it in the end).

Since you do not even know that those two verses are speaking of the land of Jerusalem, than this should tell me that you do not understand most of the teachings in the bible. You should be very worried about this.

I am aware that the Ezekiel passage is referring to God's covenant with Jerusalem. But since it uses marriage as an analogous covenant, I thought it might shed some light.

The passage from Proverbs is about a marriage covenant that has been broken by an adulterous wife. Since you do not even know that that passage is not speaking of the land of Jerusalem, then this should tell me that you do not understand most of the teachings of the Bible. You should be very worried about this.

 

[starlovesgod]

It's ideal to wait but God forgives those who have made mistakes so there is no use in punishing yourself for the rest of your life is you have made a mistake.