Just how Biblical is the whole "no sex until after the wedding ceremony" thing?

[seeingeyes]

Getting married without government oversight (officiation, documentation, or whatever else) breaks which law of Moses?

 

[ObeyGODCommandments]

@ObeyGODCommandments

Might I suggest not cherry picking scriptures and pasting together a version that just supports your argument. If you take a moment and really read Romans, which you've pulled a few quotes from, you'll see the truth, if you are meant to see it. I am free from the law and I rebuke ANY attempts to put me back under the bondage of the yoke, of the law. Period.

I do not cherry pick scriptures just for the fun of it. I keep what is written. I have read pretty much the whole bible already to understand biblical teachings. It's you that needs to be warned. You are taking the importance of God's commandments and twisting It to your own destruction. People that reject the law of Moses tends to take Paul's teachings out of context in order to try to justify their statements that sin is okay because they do not want to practice self-control when it comes to wanting to put the flesh to death. For someone to convince the OP to have a fake marriage so that he can fornicate with his girlfriend is only telling him that he should sin. There is no love in that.

 

[ObeyGODCommandments]

I have not said one word about breaking the law of Moses. I'm still trying to figure out what the law is.

Getting married without government oversight (officiation, documentation, or whatever else) breaks which law of Moses?

Sorry than. I was trying to get my point across about the law to those who reject it. If it wasn't you that agreed to breaking the law, than I grabbed your default name by mistake.

 

[HiLo]

I do not cherry pick scriptures. I keep what is written. I have read pretty much the whole bible already to understand biblical teachings. It's you that needs to be warned. You are taking the importance of God's commandments and twisting It to your own destruction. People that reject the law of Moses tends to take Paul's teachings out of context in order to try to justify their statements that sin is okay because they do not want to practice self-control when it comes to wanting to put the flesh to death. For someone to convince the OP to have a fake marriage so that he can fornicate with his girlfriend is only telling him that he should sin. There is no love in that.

He's able to make his own decisions, which I believe he has based on him, not on anything anyone said here. If I remember the OP correctly, he was simply looking for like minded people who had come to similar conclusions as himself, about what is or isn't in the bible about marriage. He will continue to believe whatever he chooses to believe. If he has the Spirit, he will be lead by it. Regardless what anyone says.

"My sheep know my voice and can follow no other."

 

[seeingeyes]

Sorry than. I was trying to get my point across about the law to those who reject it. If it wasn't you that agreed to breaking the law, than I grabbed your default name by mistake.

Yeah, it can get kind of crazy when posts are flying.

I do hope you can understand my argument, though. If the law of Moses has no requisite rules for what constitutes/initiates/formalizes a marriage, then we should not add criteria where there are none and call it 'scriptural' as if the law was not quite complete.

Now, if someone has had private conviction on this matter, I say "praise God for His Spirit!" But as you are no doubt aware, private conviction is not binding on everyone in the world, or even every Christian. It is binding between a child of God and his Father.

The truth is that between the time of Moses and now, 'marriage' has been redefined to be something that must be granted to two people, either by the church or the government. But it was not always so.

Marriage is more ancient than the church or even the tabernacle, and more primal than any government. It is a sacred union that no man can touch, no matter who he was appointed by.

God hates divorce. Not because it generates so much paperwork, but because it severs a union that we can only begin, with our short lives, to understand.

If I were to agree that the piece of paper from the state of Ohio crumbling in a drawer somewhere in my house constituted the validity of my marriage, I would have to lower my standard of marriage, not raise it.

 

[PureDose]

If you know the truth, why bother arguing this?

I mean, aren't there much bigger issues at hand in the world?


This is one issue, it seems pretty minor to me. What about the fact that a large majority of Christians suffer needlessly because they have ruled out the concept of God performing miracles in their lives?

 

[CounselorForChrist]

For those who don't understand how "the law" works and how to follow it check out the topic I made last week to see the general view of how it works:
http://www.christianforums.com/t7704006/

Or if you want to skip it the basic answer everyone says is:
We are to follow mans law UNLESS it interferes with Gods law.

So if the government does not recognize your marriage because you did not do it lawfully to the point of you getting a marriage certificate then in Gods eyes your marriage is not recognized either. And yes marriage laws differ from place to place. Where I am marrying my fiance, we have to go through the embassy to get a marriage license. Without it then they nor the USA would recognize our marriage.

 

[ObeyGODCommandments]

Yeah, it can get kind of crazy when posts are flying.

True

I do hope you can understand my argument, though. If the law of Moses has no requisite rules for what constitutes/initiates/formalizes a marriage, then we should not add criteria where there are none and call it 'scriptural' as if the law was not quite complete.

The truth is that between the time of Moses and now, 'marriage' has been redefined to be something that must be granted to two people, either by the church or the government. But it was not always so.

Marriage is more ancient than the church or even the tabernacle, and more primal than any government. It is a sacred union that no man can touch, no matter who he was appointed by.

Yes I can understand your argument as well as the others on here too. The bible does not mentioned everything that we need to know, that is why I ask God about things that aren't mentioned in the bible, and that is what I suggested people to do. My argument wasn't to win, but to prove a point by dividing the word of God correctly to explain my point of this matter, also to use common sense. The bible does mentioned the word (marriage covenant) which explains the whole mystery of a marriage license, also keeping one's vows and pledges.

To explain more about the covenant, the old covenant was only attended for the Israelis to keep at the time when Abraham, Issac, Jacob, David, and Moses were around governing God's people. The new covenant on the other-hand is now for the (Jews and Gentiles) because of what Jesus did on the cross. This covenant that we're under is a better one which is for our generation. Now, Paul is an apostle for the Genitals. His writings are made for you and me since we are Genitals, not Jews. If he says that we must submit to authorities, governors, kings, and etc... than we need to obey whatever is being said in verses Romans 13:1-7 and 1 Peter 2:13-17.
Those verses shouldn't be overlooked nor cast aside as tradition you know what I mean. The law shouldn't be looked at as tradition, but a way of life. Do you agree or disagree?

We as Christians should set an example for the believers in speech, in life, in love, in faith and in purity.

Read Titus 3:1-11. This verse will example what God expects for us to do as Christians.

If people want to get married, they should do things according to today, not in the past.

God hates divorce. Not because it generates so much paperwork, but because it severs a union that we can only begin, with our short lives, to understand.

I agree. God does truly hate when people get into an divorce. In verse Malachi 2:10-6, it mentions how angry God has gotten towards Judah for breaking the marriage covenant against his former wife for a another. The rule of the law says, "let no man separate." Two married couples will become one flesh because they are no longer two, but one. So if two couples get into an divorce, they will be breaking the covenant and breaking their vows that they have utterly professed to keep. Legal paper works on the other-hand just comes with the extra drama.

 

[ObeyGODCommandments]

For those who don't understand how "the law" works and how to follow it check out the topic I made last week to see the general view of how it works:
http://www.christianforums.com/t7704006/

Or if you want to skip it the basic answer everyone says is:
We are to follow mans law UNLESS it interferes with Gods law.

So if the government does not recognize your marriage because you did not do it lawfully to the point of you getting a marriage certificate then in Gods eyes your marriage is not recognized either. And yes marriage laws differ from place to place. Where I am marrying my fiance, we have to go through the embassy to get a marriage license. Without it then they nor the USA would recognize our marriage.

I agree!

 

[Leonfrost]

For those who don't understand how "the law" works and how to follow it check out the topic I made last week to see the general view of how it works:
http://www.christianforums.com/t7704006/

Or if you want to skip it the basic answer everyone says is:
We are to follow mans law UNLESS it interferes with Gods law.

So if the government does not recognize your marriage because you did not do it lawfully to the point of you getting a marriage certificate then in Gods eyes your marriage is not recognized either. And yes marriage laws differ from place to place. Where I am marrying my fiance, we have to go through the embassy to get a marriage license. Without it then they nor the USA would recognize our marriage.

I'm sorry that your personal circumstance is difficult, Freakazoid, but I don't think it's fair for you to call YOUR view "the general view." You're disregarding far too much of Paul's writings by attempting to continue lending weight to the Law.

 

[Radagast]

Marriage certificates are not in the Bible.

Marriage COVENANTS are in the Bible.

 

[Radagast]

I am free from the law and I rebuke ANY attempts to put me back under the bondage of the yoke, of the law. Period.

Read Romans 6: "What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase? By no means! We died to sin; how can we live in it any longer? Or don’t you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? ... In the same way, count yourselves dead to sin but alive to God in Christ Jesus. Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its evil desires. Do not offer the parts of your body to sin, as instruments of wickedness, but rather offer yourselves to God, as those who have been brought from death to life; and offer the parts of your body to him as instruments of righteousness... What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? By no means! Don’t you know that when you offer yourselves to someone to obey him as slaves, you are slaves to the one whom you obey—whether you are slaves to sin, which leads to death, or to obedience, which leads to righteousness?"

The reason that this truth is threating to the status quo church, is because people realize you don't need them.

Yeah, right. You're not part of the Christian community. I should have guessed that someone who advocates sleeping around wouldn't be.

 

[seeingeyes]

Marriage COVENANTS are in the Bible.

Yes. And they apparently consist of a vow of faithfulness.

"It will save you also from the adulteress,from the wayward wife with her seductive words,
who has left the partner of her youth
and ignored the covenant she made before God." (Proverbs 2:16-17)


"You ask, “Why?” It is because the Lord is acting as the witness between you and the wife of your youth, because you have broken faith with her, though she is your partner, the wife of your marriage covenant.
Has not the Lord made them one? In flesh and spirit they are his. And why one? Because he was seeking godly offspring. So guard yourself in your spirit, and do not break faith with the wife of your youth"(Malachi 2:15)


"'Later I passed by, and when I looked at you and saw that you were old enough for love, I spread the corner of my garment over you and covered your nakedness. I gave you my solemn oath and entered into a covenant with you, declares the Sovereign LORD, and you became mine." (Ezekiel 16:8)

 

[CounselorForChrist]

but I don't think it's fair for you to call YOUR view "the general view." You're disregarding far too much of Paul's writings by attempting to continue lending weight to the Law.

Its not my view. It comes directly from the bible. I'll just post the versus from another site:

Obey God:
(Acts 5:29) - "But Peter and the apostles answered and said, We must obey God rather than men."

Obey Man
(Romans 13:1) - "Let every person be in subjection to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those which exist are established by God."

(1 Peter 2:13) - "Submit yourselves for the Lord’s sake to every human institution, whether to a king as the one in authority,"


The simple answer is that Christians are to obey human law except where that human law violates God's Law. Our supreme duty is to obey God. Since God tells us to also obey human laws, we should. But, when they come in conflict, we are to "obey God rather than men."

Are you saying you disagree with that quote? Its scripture! Now we are also both denominations. I don't know much about your denomination but what I do now is as a non-denominational christian (me), we go by ONLY what the bible says. We don't twist it to fit what we need. We don't interpret it to the point of it doesn't sound like the verse. We also look at various bible versions and for some they study the torah for the exact meanings. We study and study. The sort version with us is if it isn't in the bible and you can't back up your idea then its unbiblical and false doctrine.

I am btw not saying you are twisting it or teaching a false doctrine since as I said I don't know your denomination. I am just explaining how my denomination works. Most other denominations I know in america seem to teach according to their views and their ideas.

 

[seeingeyes]

True

Yes I can understand your argument as well as the others on here too. The bible does not mentioned everything that we need to know, that is why I ask God about things that aren't mentioned in the bible, and that is what I suggested people to do. My argument wasn't to win, but to prove a point by dividing the word of God correctly to explain my point of this matter, also to use common sense. The bible does mentioned the word (marriage covenant) which explains the whole mystery of a marriage license, also keeping one's vows and pledges.

A marriage covenant is a vow a faithfulness between two people, and God acts as witness to the vow. If you can show me some other definition for the marriage covenant in the Bible, please show me.

To explain more about the covenant, the old covenant was only attended for the Israelis to keep at the time when Abraham, Issac, Jacob, David, and Moses were around governing God's people. The new covenant on the other-hand is now for the (Jews and Gentiles) because of what Jesus did on the cross. This covenant that we're under is a better one which is for our generation. Now, Paul is an apostle for the Genitals. His writings are made for you and me since we are Genitals, not Jews. If he says that we must submit to authorities, governors, kings, and etc... than we need to obey whatever is being said in verses Romans 13:1-7 and 1 Peter 2:13-17.
Those verses shouldn't be overlooked nor cast aside as tradition you know what I mean. The law shouldn't be looked at as tradition, but a way of life. Do you agree or disagree?

Legal marriage is not required by the government (at least not our government anyways). Let's say that a man and a woman do the whole traditional rigamarole (parties and priests and vows and rings and witnesses and setting up house), yet they never bother to pick up and sign the paperwork. Could the government then prosecute them? Could they go to jail for 'fake marriage'?

No. Of course not.

So this couple would be married in every way, except that their marriage would not be legally recognized by the government. But this couple would not be 'failing to submit' to the authorities, because the authorities just don't care whether or not those two are married or not married, so long as they keep filling out their paperwork according to the legal definition of their status.

Now, I would say that it is wise and beneficial in the vast majority of cases to apply for state recognition of the marriage you are initiating, but I don't believe that a marriage certificate 'makes' me a wife any more than a birth certificate 'makes' me a mother.

We as Christians should set an example for the believers in speech, in life, in love, in faith and in purity.

Read Titus 3:1-11. This verse will example what God expects for us to do as Christians.

If people want to get married, they should do things according to today, not in the past.

But you don't fully believe that people should do things 'according to today', if you feel that the government initiates marriages that are not valid in God's eyes.

I agree. God does truly hate when people get into an divorce. In verse Malachi 2:10-6, it mentions how angry God has gotten towards Judah for breaking the marriage covenant against his former wife for a another. The rule of the law says, "let no man separate." Two married couples will become one flesh because they are no longer two, but one. So if two couples get into an divorce, they will be breaking the covenant and breaking their vows that they have utterly professed to keep. Legal paper works on the other-hand just comes with the extra drama.

I agree. Which is why I consider the paperwork secondary to the true meat of marriage.

I would never advise two people to get married without the paperwork except in some rather bizarre case (so bizarre I can't even think of an example), because, really, it's just easier when you have the proper papers. But not because the scriptures require paperwork and government permission...because they don't.

 

[Radagast]

Yes. And they apparently consist of a vow of faithfulness.

Covenants are more solemn than just a private promise; they have witnesses, and symbols, and sometimes certificates (Nehemiah 9:38: "Because of all this we make a firm covenant in writing; on the sealed document are the names of our princes, our Levites, and our priests").

 

[HiLo]

Good morning all!

The final fig leaf in these "marriage" discussions is always the "submit to governing authority". But, co-habitating is not against the law so it's another moot point. The idea that only through man can we enter into a covenant with God is mind boggling to me.

However, I respect each persons decision to walk their walk by their own heart, emphasizing that love conquers all. What God cares about is how we treat each other. All this man-made stuff is going to burn up anyway and since there is no sex or marriage in heaven, I seriously doubt any of this discussion is relevant to God beyond the love, respect and faithfulness we give to our spouses.

 

[seeingeyes]

Covenants are more solemn than just a private promise; they have witnesses, and symbols, and sometimes certificates (Nehemiah 9:38: "Because of all this we make a firm covenant in writing; on the sealed document are the names of our princes, our Levites, and our priests").

So then, Biblically, a marriage covenant consists of witnesses, symbols, and sometimes certificates.

 

[Radagast]

So then, Biblically, a marriage covenant consists of witnesses, symbols, and sometimes certificates.

That's what I'm saying. Today, any church wedding generates witnesses, among our preferred symbols are wedding rings, and the minister can arrange certificates.

From antiquity governments have gotten involved in marriage, because of the need to resolve property disputes (among children, for example).

Historically, Christian marriage and government marriage have mostly been linked (for what Christian would want to weasel out of legal obligations?) but there have been exceptions -- for example, marriages between slave and free Christians in the pagan Roman empire, which were recognised by the Church, but not by the government.

 

[seekingsister]

So then, Biblically, a marriage covenant consists of witnesses, symbols, and sometimes certificates.

Getting a marriage license in most states requires a witness and certificates as well.

And many Christians get pre-marital counselling from their church and receive approval or confirmation from a minister that they are prepared to make that commitment.

So I am wondering why the final signature on a marriage license by the minister is what makes a couple "married" in God's eyes. Plenty of engaged couple are well beyond the standards of marriage in Biblical times much before the wedding actually takes place. And in many cases (like mine), it is man-made culture of having a big wedding that delays a lot of marriages, because families will not accept couples just going to the courthouse or getting eloped.

I do not consider sex within that relationship "pre-marital" from a Biblical perspective, only a legal one.