Just a quick outline of my Christian Socialist views

[Kalevalatar]

Welcome to the Christian Forums!

I myself am a Christian Democrat, so instead of socialism I support social democracy: joint responsibility for our neighbours, a just and caring society, spiritually and ecologically healthy. I strongly believe, however, that the welfare state model requires -- social and ecological -- free & fair market economy to pay for it. In other words, I believe in taxes, taxation and redistribution of taxes and wealth rather than in social ownership per se; innovative, productive economic activity and private entrepreneurship that makes good tax-payers as well as private investments in economic activity. Economic competition is not always bad but can be also a force of good that produces, for example, better, more sustainable clean technology and energy "better" than a socialist status quo would, IMO.

I absolutely agree that consumerism is greed pure and simple and greed is an anti-Christian value and pursuit. Ditto financial markets -- a just economy that can stand broad daylight and does not have to hide in tax havens and behind fake companies. Economic activity that supports the community and society and investments that create jobs, create better technology, better human conditions (for example, medical innovations) and broad wellbeing all around while also creating profit for the investors, instead of quick profits for predatory investors for profits' sake. Investors are also influencers and can force businesses to become environmentally healthy and to treat their workforce fairly. We can buy a stake in a company to force it to operate better.

Ditto God's Creation: the value of creation comes from its Creator and obliges us to take responsibility for the environment, no excuses.

 

[FireDragon76]

Just wanted to give a quick outline of my own political views, just to get them out there.

So I'm a Christian socialist, that is to say, I believe that a conciousness of God coupled with class conciousness would facilitate the commonownership of the means of production. I'm a post millenialist and see a reformist revolution for dismantling the current liberal paradigm with nationstates acting as economic entities and instead foster a globalized society where God's priciples rule to empower the internationale, establishing the millenium outlined in Revelation 19 & 20. I'm staunchly antiracist, post capitalist and a libertarian feminist as per Galatians 3:28. I'm also a huge environmental advocate, that we are custodians of creation (Genesis 2:15) and that reaving the planet is not pleasing to God (Revelation 11:18), which is coupled with my stance against land ownership (Psalms 24:1).I fully support corrective advocacy for oppressed peoples the special protections of such (Deuteronomy 10:18–19) and the redistribution of goods by need (Psalms 112: 1, 9).

Like aside form the critique of capitalism already offered by Marx and Engels, I also find that liberalism to be more inline with ethics of Satanists than Christians. I'm not going to quote the works of Helena Blavatsky or Anton LeVey here but Satanic literature heavily emphasizes the empowerment and exhaltation of the invididual despite or even in detriment to those around you. These list Greed as a valid motivation for one's self fulfillment, the very force that empowers market mechanisms. I also find that this libertine morality that consumerism fosters is also informed by these new philosophies and I tend not to concentrate much on lgbt+ as moral failings of the individual, they were born that way and their sin is no more or less than mine - I see them as a symptom of out decadant society and a consequence unto which we have be delivered, rather than something thatwas chosen (Romans 1:26-27)

Though I don't believe that socialist experiments have been nearly as much of a failure as portrayed (Russia and China were made from fuedal agrarian societies to industrialized superpowers in mere decades) I see a fatal flaw in Marx's analysis is that religion as an opiate could be used a means of oppression as well as a means to relieve pain. While I wish to dismantle religious as well as national and economic institutions, I'm convinced that the application of God's principles without God has let our own flawed nature corrupt the revolution and it is only in Christ that it can be maintained. I'm convinced that the one true God can rally the best of our nature, as demonstrated by Sunni Muslims being the biggest global contributors to charity (though Sunni Islam, being orthopraxy, again relied upon human actions to reach a relationship with God and has lead to attrocity due to origina sin) this can demonstrate how belief in the one true God can move our flawed selves towards his intent. Thought I am largely a pacifist, though I'm not a an American, I do see the utility of the 2nd amendment and that a people's militia is superior to a professional military that services the monopoly of violence afforded to the formation of a state. As as such the prolitariat must remain armed (Luke 22:36) in defense of the revolution.

Like again, this is just an synopsis, I could go into the function of anarcho-syndicalist economics post communism, the means of class awareness in conjuction with baptism or further theology that lead me here but this isn't a manefesto, it's just a blurb of such. In short, I see class conciousness and prolitariate revolution as a means to achieving The Millenium, where no man shall rule over man but all know the King of kings and the God of gods.

You might want to check out Liberation Theology, it's a good response to Marx and takes him seriously on his own terms. The downfall of much of Christianity is not taking Marx seriously enough. Instead, many Christians whistle past the graveyard instead of paying attention to Feuerbach and Marx and reacting thoughtfully.

 

[FireDragon76]

I don't know where this discussion is going, but the Soviet Union, terrible as it was, was generally living out the sequence of events that Marx predicted. Of course, the withering away of the state would never have happened, but anarchism is still the answer to your question, whether or not it could ever become reality.

No, Marx predicted that the socialist revolution would first happen in Germany, not Russia. He believed Russia was too poor and unindustrialized to support socialism. The Bolshevik ideology was a modification of Marxism, since it involve an elite seizing power on behalf of the proletariat, whereas Marx believed the proletariat themeslves would establish socialism.

 

[FireDragon76]

Precisely why I have no notion of sovereignty, patriotism or nationalism and why I'm fine with all states being dismantled

I agree. Those are all old myths and we can do better in the modern world.

 

[Tom 1]

I agree. Those are all old myths and we can do better in the modern world.

The commitment to the idea of borders and nations is pretty intense though, a deep-rooted blend of fear and tradition.

 

[Aussie Pete]

Welcome to the Christian Forums!

I myself am a Christian Democrat, so instead of socialism I support social democracy: joint responsibility for our neighbours, a just and caring society, spiritually and ecologically healthy. I strongly believe, however, that the welfare state model requires -- social and ecological -- free & fair market economy to pay for it. In other words, I believe in taxes, taxation and redistribution of taxes and wealth rather than in social ownership per se; innovative, productive economic activity and private entrepreneurship that makes good tax-payers as well as private investments in economic activity. Economic competition is not always bad but can be also a force of good that produces, for example, better, more sustainable clean technology and energy "better" than a socialist status quo would, IMO.

I absolutely agree that consumerism is greed pure and simple and greed is an anti-Christian value and pursuit. Ditto financial markets -- a just economy that can stand broad daylight and does not have to hide in tax havens and behind fake companies. Economic activity that supports the community and society and investments that create jobs, create better technology, better human conditions (for example, medical innovations) and broad wellbeing all around while also creating profit for the investors, instead of quick profits for predatory investors for profits' sake. Investors are also influencers and can force businesses to become environmentally healthy and to treat their workforce fairly. We can buy a stake in a company to force it to operate better.

Ditto God's Creation: the value of creation comes from its Creator and obliges us to take responsibility for the environment, no excuses.

You are not going to change the world. God does not demand that of us because it is Satan's system. The world system will be replaced, not by a "better" world system but by the Kingdom of God. God's kingdom is a theocracy and Christ is the King.

If the Church stuck to the true gospel of the Kingdom, and lived it, the people of the world would see what the Kingdom of God is like in practice. Then they would have the opportunity to choose God's way or man's. Right now there is not a lot of difference, at least in the West. It is different in the many nations that persecute believers. The church is far stronger and spiritual in those countries.

Society is becoming more selfish, greedier, less honest and more violent. This is an opportunity for the real Church to shine brighter as the world grows darker. For sure, pray about the issues you hold as important. Politics and social systems are not the answer. Jesus is the Answer for the world today.

 

[Kalevalatar]

You are not going to change the world. God does not demand that of us because it is Satan's system. The world system will be replaced, not by a "better" world system but by the Kingdom of God. God's kingdom is a theocracy and Christ is the King.

If the Church stuck to the true gospel of the Kingdom, and lived it, the people of the world would see what the Kingdom of God is like in practice. Then they would have the opportunity to choose God's way or man's. Right now there is not a lot of difference, at least in the West. It is different in the many nations that persecute believers. The church is far stronger and spiritual in those countries.

Society is becoming more selfish, greedier, less honest and more violent. This is an opportunity for the real Church to shine brighter as the world grows darker. For sure, pray about the issues you hold as important. Politics and social systems are not the answer. Jesus is the Answer for the world today.

Obviously, I disagree. "Politics" is about managing the mutual matters of a community: crime & punishment, distribution of land, roads, schools etc. We can choose to run our communities in a good way so that it works for every member of the society or in a bad way that faciliates selfishness and greed. As a Christians, following our Lord Jesus Christ's example, I don't think we have the luxury of looking the other way and declaring that this does not concern us. To be a Christian is a community thing, not a self-centered navel-gazing pursuit.

 

[Aussie Pete]

Obviously, I disagree. "Politics" is about managing the mutual matters of a community: crime & punishment, distribution of land, roads, schools etc. We can choose to run our communities in a good way so that it works for every member of the society or in a bad way that faciliates selfishness and greed. As a Christians, following our Lord Jesus Christ's example, I don't think we have the luxury of looking the other way and declaring that this does not concern us. To be a Christian is a community thing, not a self-centered navel-gazing pursuit.

Who is "we"? You did not find Jesus criticising the Romans. They ruled Israel with an iron fist. If Christians were united in love, walked in the Spirit and preached the gospel of the Kingdom, the world would sit up and take notice. People would be drawn to Christ, get born again, the kingdom of darkness would suffer loss and Jesus would be glorified. Your way is back to front.

 

[Kalevalatar]

Who is "we"? You did not find Jesus criticising the Romans. They ruled Israel with an iron fist. If Christians were united in love, walked in the Spirit and preached the gospel of the Kingdom, the world would sit up and take notice. People would be drawn to Christ, get born again, the kingdom of darkness would suffer loss and Jesus would be glorified. Your way is back to front.

"We" is the "you" in the Judgment of the nations, the sheep and the goats.

 

[Aussie Pete]

The judgement of the sheep and goats refers to how people treat Christians. It has nothing to do with how a community is run.

 

[Kalevalatar]

The judgement of the sheep and goats refers to how people treat Christians. It has nothing to do with how a community is run.

I'm a non-Jewish gentile and therefore one of those "yous" our Lord Jesus Christ addresses. My service to my fellow people and especially to those in need is my service to Him. It's also how I fulfill the Great Commission in my everyday life. I take the Christ's command over whatever you advocate, so you are preaching to the deaf ears.

 

[straykat]

I appreciate the Class consciousness that the Left always brings attention to, but I don't see how one could be a Christian and socialist at the same time. It requires coercion. Compelling your fellow man to give, rather than hoping he gives of his own heart. It's probably easier on the conscience (or lack of conscience) for the Jacobian or Marxist to do this (they neither believe in hell or God), but I don't see how a Christian can. Indeed, Christians are told to be generous and to not serve Mammon and are taught about the imbalance of class throughout scripture. But ending greed must be done from the heart. With socialism there is no heart required. You can have one or not. It doesn't matter in the end. What rules is raw power. And that's where it gets ugly.

 

[A Gerbil]

I cannot believe after Stalin, Mau, Pol Pot and an estimated one hundred million people who were murdered by socialist governments last century, that people still advocate this ideology which is ultimately based upon envy and the desire for greater material consumption.

The Russian Revolution resulted in priests being crucified, later there was KGB terror and crimes such as wrecking.

There is a lot of evidence that the Soviet Union was funded by Wall Street bankers, and received covert help and support from the US - I suggest reading some of Anthony Sutton's books.

As for a world without borders, all that will happen is mass-migration from the third world to the first world and infrastructure would never cope, resulting in civil wars, death and misery.

More people were murdered by governments than died of any other non-natural cause last century. All socialism does is empower the government, or rather the Party, which will become your boss, trade union, landlord and of course will administer the police, army and all production. It's a tyrant's fantasy.

 

[durangodawood]

I cannot believe after Stalin, Mau, Pol Pot and an estimated one hundred million people who were murdered by socialist governments last century, that people still advocate this ideology which is ultimately based upon envy and the desire for greater material consumption.....

Maybe people are looking at Scandinavian type socialism rather than Maoist or Soviet?

 

[renniks]

Capitalism gives value to the individual, as Jesus did. Socialism is all about controlling the masses.

 

[A Gerbil]

Maybe people are looking at Scandinavian type socialism rather than Maoist or Soviet?

Scandinavian socialism? Sweden, Norway and Denmark have monarchies, and certainly Sweden is home to plenty of billionaires. Not exactly what Marx had in mind, I shouldn't think.

I'm all for nationalised health services and a welfare state, but that's not socialism.

 

[durangodawood]

Scandinavian socialism? Sweden, Norway and Denmark have monarchies, and certainly Sweden is home to plenty of billionaires. Not exactly what Marx had in mind, I shouldn't think.

I'm all for nationalised health services and a welfare state, but that's not socialism.

In America, when one person proposes national health, someone from the right says: you want socialism! Thats how the discussion works here. We're dumb.

 

[A Gerbil]

In America, when one person proposes national health, someone from the right says: you want socialism! Thats how the discussion works here. We're dumb.

Aye, though it's not just America that's like that - when people say they're opposed to immigration they're often called a Nazi. It's just a way of attempting to besmirch and silence one's political adversaries. Political discourse has become really ugly and spiteful over the last few years. I have no respect for politicians and rarely take an interest in it. However I am frightened by the number of young people who claim to desire genuine socialism; I really believe human beings are too evil to ever create a utopia and it will end up being a hell on earth.

 

[durangodawood]

Aye, though it's not just America that's like that - when people say they're opposed to immigration they're often called a Nazi. It's just a way of attempting to besmirch and silence one's political adversaries. Political discourse has become really ugly and spiteful over the last few years. I have no respect for politicians and rarely take an interest in it. However I am frightened by the number of young people who claim to desire genuine socialism; I really believe human beings are too evil to ever create a utopia and it will end up being a hell on earth.

In the USA, its exceeding rare to find people who want to eliminate the free market as the basic arena of economic activity. Mainly its people who want national health care and state provided education.... and get labelled "socialists" for better or worse.

 

[A Gerbil]

In the USA, its exceeding rare to find people who want to eliminate the free market as the basic arena of economic activity. Mainly its people who want national health care and state provided education.... and get labelled "socialists" for better or worse.

I sincerely hope you're right. I know people who claim to be socialists and one of their recurrent discussions was who they would put up against the wall first - royals, aristocrats, conservatives, fascists, etc. I always used to ask them whether they'd truly prefer to live (or have lived) in North or South Korea, East or West Germany, Cuba or Florida, etc. But their answer was always that 'true socialism' has never occurred, but were it to happen it would be a utopia, paradise on earth. They just needed to kill a lot of people first.