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Judgement and the Elect

Discussion in 'General Theology' started by PrettyboyAndy, Jan 1, 2018.

  1. PrettyboyAndy

    PrettyboyAndy • Andy • Supporter

    Hello all,

    I was having a discussion with family over the holidays, and we spoke about God, and I brought up that I am a 5 point Calvinist.

    And the family member asked, what is the purpose of the judgement, if God has already chosen before the foundations of the earth, and elect people, who will come to faith, because God has planned this to happen.

    They went on to ask, whats the point of the judgement, if the non believer, never has a chance, why have a judgement.

    I went on to explain, that God is 100% just for casting everyone into hell, because we are all fallen and sinner, and that God is merciful for granting life to those who chooses to.

    But in a sense, I don't see a reason for a judgement, as the outcome has already been determined.
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  2. BobRyan

    BobRyan Junior Member

    United States
    True. Calvinism does not allow for the judgment future or any judgment at all since it is "a done deal" for all eternity. There was 'never a time' when God "had to figure it out". And in Calvinism the rule that God goes by is "God is sovereign" and not "God has to explain everything to your satisfaction to be sure you agree".

    This is irrefutable. IF Calvinism were true there would be no Daniel 7 chapter where "the court sits and the books are opened" and then "judgment is passed in favor of the saints". (in fact in Calvinism it is totally senseless to allow any sin and rebellion at all to exist - ever... not even for one second)

    IF Calvinism were true there would be no Romans 2 where all are judged according to their works some with one outcome and others with a different outcome 'for it is not the hearers of the LAW that are accounted as JUST before God - but the DOERS of the LAW will be JUSTIFIED... on the day when according to my GOSPEL God will (future tense) judge" Romans 2:13-16

    Rev 14:6-7 at the end of time part of the last warning message to the WORLD is "Fear God and give glory to Him - for the hour of His judgment HAS COME - worship Him who created the heavens and the Earth and the springs of water"

    Rom 2:11 "God is NOT partial" -- in other words the "arbitrary selection" doctrine of Calvinism is fiction.., fake news.

    Both Calvinism and Arminianism will admit that God "has always known" but in the Arminian model God sovereignly chooses a "FREE WILL" based universe and so organizes "corporate judgment" events where beings witness and affirm the justice of God as we see in Daniel 7 and in Rev 19
    Last edited: Jan 1, 2018
  3. nonaeroterraqueous

    nonaeroterraqueous Nonexistent Member

    United States
    The judgment follows the outcome. How we got there, from a divine perspective, is somewhat irrelevant. Calvinists can get so good at looking at the side of the coin that everyone else misses, that they forget to consider the side that everyone sees.

    You sin. Then you reject God's offer of salvation. Then you pay the consequence. That's the popularly seen side of the coin. The sense in all of that derives from the fact that one thing naturally leads to another, and a man pays the price for his own bad choices. That's the play that we enact on this stage we call life, and it makes sense. The Calvinist considers the back of the stage, though. From that angle, there's an overarching cause to the entire play. The whole thing is scripted, and the consequence of a character's action seems more to come from the hand of the playwright than it does from the motive of the character. The fact is, if you spend your whole life watching the play only from the back of the set, then you miss the story. A Calvinist ought to be one who watches the play from the front of the set, like everyone else. The only difference is that he recognizes that it's just a set and that something very different goes on behind the scenes.

    Whatever appears to have nearly happened is something that never happened and was never about to happen. That's the illusion. God is in control.

    JIMINZ Well-Known Member

    United States
    It must be understood, Calvin was mistaken on who the believed to be the Elect.

    Any questions on who the Elect actually are, can be answered by doing a word study of.

    Elect, Elected, Election, and Remnant
  5. Ron Gurley

    Ron Gurley What U See is What U Get!

    United States
    Pure Calvinism and its 5 point doctrines are totally false.
    It destoys the doctrine of spiritual "free will" and God's Mercy/Grace/Love. It is easily refuted by discerning Scripture.

    Calvinism Refuted By Scripture

    Calvinism is a man made philosophy depending on fallible human logic which total ignores many clear Scriptures, perverts many, and misuses others. Long before John Calvin's time the teaching was presented by the Roman Catholic heretic Augustine. Here are some Scriptures soundly refute the errors of the Calvinist TULIP:
  6. Ron Gurley

    Ron Gurley What U See is What U Get!

    United States
    The Judgments .

    Define by reference to the Bible WHICH JUDGMENT(S) is/are being referred to:

    a. JUDGMENT of the NATIONS ...("ethnos=PEOPLES=societies = sheep/goats) ...Psalm 9:19 ; Matthew 25: 31-36 f

    b. JUDGMENT of the Believers' Works...1 Corinthians 3: 10-15 ; 2 Corinthians 5 : 6-10

    c. The GREAT WHITE THRONE JUDGMENT...sentencing of unbelievers...Revelation 20: 11-15 (NASB)

    d. BELIEVING SURVIVORS of the GREAT TRIBULATION...Revelation 7:9-17

    e. JUDGMENT of Fallen Spirits: Revelation 20:1-10

    f. JUDGMENT of the NATION Israel....the Major Prophets + Matthew 19:27-30 (NASB)

    John 5:24
    “Truly, truly, I say to you,
    he who hears My word,
    and believes Him who sent Me,
    has eternal life, and
    does not come into JUDGMENT, (of spiritual position)
    but has passed out of death into life.

    John 3
    18 He who believes in Him is NOT judged;
    he who does not believe has been judged already,
    because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
  7. BobRyan

    BobRyan Junior Member

    United States
    b. JUDGMENT of Works...1 Corinthians 3: 10-15 ; 2 Corinthians 5 : 6-10, Romans 2:4-16, Daniel 7:9-26, Rev 14:7
  8. 1213

    1213 Disciple of Jesus

    The judgment is already given, now we just prove why it is correct judgment. :)
  9. AnticipateHisComing

    AnticipateHisComing Newbie Supporter

    What you accuse Calvinism of actually applies to your doctrine of "free will". There is no scripture that speaks of "free will". There is scripture of people making choices that you misconstrue into a doctrine of free will. I am not a true Calvinist but it exists because you can't adequately explain away Romans 8:28-30 and the bulk of Romans 9.
    I don't know who your referenced John Henry is, but I would not call his trite post an easy refuting of Calvinism by one with discerning knowledge of scripture. How can you refute a doctrine if you don't refute the scripture used to support the doctrine?

    Please tell me how you would like to pervert the meaning of election, predestined and called while you accuse another of perversion. Can you show me one scripture where the Spirit called a person and he resisted the calling? Can you explain away the very simple analogy of the God the potter?

    Acts 2:37 When the people heard this, they were cut to the heart and said to Peter and the other apostles, “Brothers, what shall we do?” 38 Peter replied, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39 The promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off—for all whom the Lord our God will call.
    Can you see that the promise is for all called by God? You think because they chose to repent that they "accepted" a call. You insinuate that one could be called by God but then reject the promise. What you miss is scripture says all called receive the promise. Further scripture repeatedly uses those "called" to reference the saved. It does not teach God calling those who are not saved.

    I know this is hard for some to accept, but it is what scripture says.
  10. AnticipateHisComing

    AnticipateHisComing Newbie Supporter

    The reason for judgement.

    God is just and, judgement day is not just about judging; it is also about sentencing and rewarding.

    It is not just to condemn one without reason.
    So, those that do not have their sins forgiven will be judged for them.

    It is not just to reward one without reason.
    So, those that are forgiven will be rewarded for their good deeds. Just don't think that people get their sins forgiven because of their good deeds.
  11. Ron Gurley

    Ron Gurley What U See is What U Get!

    United States
    The spirit of Man is IMMORTAL!

    Genesis 1:26(NASB)
    26 Then God said, “Let Us make man in Our (spiritual) image, according to Our (character) likeness;

    Ecclesiastes 12...Remember God in Your Youth: AT DEATH...
    7 then the dust (Body/Soul combo) will return to the earth as it was, (SEE: Genesis 2:7)
    and the SPIRIT (breath of life) will return to God who gave it. (SEE: Genesis 1:26 SPIRITUAL image)
    8 “Vanity of vanities,” says the Preacher, “all is vanity!

    Jesus the God-Man's SPIRIT was "committed" to heaven by Him.
    His "spirit body" ascended.
    Man's SPIRIT either dwells with or is separated from God...
    ....eternal life in the heavenly realms for believers.
    ....eternal existence in the "lake of fire" for UN-believers.

    Job 33:4
    “The Spirit of God has made me,
    And the breath of the Almighty gives me life.

    Isaiah 42:5
    Thus says God the Lord,
    Who created the heavens and stretched them out,
    Who spread out the earth and its offspring,
    Who gives breath to the people on it (BODY/SOUL
    And SPIRIT to those who walk in it,

    Hebrews 9:27
    And inasmuch as it is appointed for men to die (Body/soul combo) once and after this comes judgment, ( of man's spiritual position)

    Christ-FOLLOWERS' spiritual POSITION in Christ is NOT JUDGED!

    John 3 (NASB)
    17 For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world,
    but that the world might be saved THROUGH Him.
    18 He who BELIEVES in Him is NOT judged;
    he who does NOT BELIEVE has been judged already,
    because he has not BELIEVED in the name of thE only begotten Son of God.

    John 5:24...“Truly, truly, I say to you,
    he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life,
    and does not come into judgment, (in the future)
    but has passed out of death into life. (PAST TENSE (aorist))

    John 5:22
    For not even the Father judges anyone, but He has given all judgment to the Son,
  12. Ron Gurley

    Ron Gurley What U See is What U Get!

    United States
    The "ELECT" (eklektos):

    Matthew 24 (NASB)...Jesus on the "elect"
    21 For then there will be a GREAT tribulation,
    such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever will.
    22 Unless those days had been cut short, no life would have been SAVED;
    but for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short.

    of the elect...Greek 1588...eklektos...
    1. Christians are called "chosen or elect" of God
    2. the Messiah is called "elect", as appointed by God to the most exalted office conceivable
    Matthew 24:31
    And He will send forth His angels with a great trumpet and they will gather together His elect (saved believers) from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.
  13. dreadnought

    dreadnought Lip service isn't really service. Supporter

    United States
    United Methodist
    You seem to believe in predestination, and there are passages in the Bible that would support your belief. However, you need to use common sense. The Lord didn't create us all simply to cast us into hell forever, which, according to you, is where we all belong. The Lord loves us all. We will be judged at various times along the way, because we'd all go woefully astray if we weren't. And in the end, we will have repented of our sin, and we will enter the gate to heaven.