Judge Everybody

[BarbB]

And at the same time the bible says that those who don't know Jesus won't be held accountable for their sins, so if he isn't holding them accountable should we?

My impression (and I have known to be wrong) is that these persons who don't know Jesus are the ones who have never heard of him (like remote tribes, countries, etc - harder and harder to find in these times), not the ones who don't know him personally or spiritually, but heard of him and said "no".

 

[Rae]

FYI, Spock was originally going to be a woman, but the network censors complained, so he became an alien, instead. Now watch the original with that in mind.

 

[SqueezetheShaman]

There's a little thing called tact, and another called manners. There's also "not leaping to conclusions from insufficient evidence."

My problem is with those who judge without tact or manners, and who leap to conclusions about me based on insufficient evidence. Atheists and Christians alike have been guilty of judging me in this fashion.

Noone jumps to conclusions about you Rae. We know from reading and movies that you are a baby sacrificing, blood drinkin, naked at the altar at midnight witch. right???

 

[cbk]

Did Jesus not have supper with tax collectors and publicans (I believe the definition of a publican is the owner of a tavern or pub)? Was a prostitute named Mary not one of his friends? A close enough friend that she washed his feet and anointed them with perfumed oil.

Jesus did in fact, so far as I can tell from reading the New Testament, hang out with sinners. Good heavens, it was the fact that he DID associate with sinners that was partly responsible for getting him killed! He was a troublemaker who associated with those people who would have been kept on the fringes of society--tax collectors, bartenders, prostitutes.

A few questions....

In order for a minister (doctor so to speak) to reach the sinners, will he not have to associate with them but not partake in their sins? I believe so.

And, secondly, was not the message of Jesus (and John the Baptist) to repent of sin? I believe so and that that was his message while he was hanging out with them.

Thirdly, can it not be reasonably assumed that those so called "sinners" who continued to follow Jesus about do so because they either were experiencing the joy, peace, and freedom of repenting of their sins, or they were still trying to clear the sinful hurdle in their lives and were seeking the way?

--------

Granted, I have little doubt that many of the 'sinners' who were following Jesus sometimes slipped back into sin due to weakness of the flesh as many Christians of today and yesterday have done, and as many of the Jewish peoples of the Old Testament accounts have done. This said, yes Jesus was among sinners...

But, I ask this...... "Where on EARTH could Jesus have gone to be in the presence of non-sinners?" The temple? No. The market place? No. His hometown? No.

Jesus' actions were simple. Announce the kingdom of Heaven is near and REPENT. Why to prostitutes and drunkards? Because they were not blind in hypocracy like the Pharasees in the temple.... The prostitutes and drunkards understood the law and at least knew they were in sin -- Many leaders of the religion would not recognize or acknowledge their sins,,, nor repent. Jesus showed compassion by reaching to those who at least acknowledged the sin in their lives and he did not turn away from them like the uncompassionate, blind temple leaders who sat in Moses' seat. Although Jesus did preach to the temple leaders, they would not accept his message.... The 'sinners' did accept his message and, as such, Jesus stayed among them...

And besides, in another light, Jesus was merely doing the work that the temple leaders had failed to do! Reach out to the sinners and call them to repent...... The leaders of the temple, who sat in Moses' seat, do what many Christian leaders do today --- they waited for the 'sinners' to come to them at the temple and other 'holy' sites, rather than they going to the sinners.

In the end, in the eyes of God, we are all sinners!

And, in the eyes of God, we all need to acknowledge our sins and repent.

 

[cbk]

In the end, I believe that God is a God of RESTRAINT.

In the snap of a finger, God could destroy 100% of us, Christian and non-Christian, for we are ALL in sin. But he has promised not to by restaining himself.

IMO, God calls us to RESTRAIN ourselves from the temptations that lead us to sin and to repent when we do sin. This should be the spiritual battle to those who believe in God -- Restrain from temptation and repent when we fail..

In regards to judging, I believe Christians are called to judge OTHER CHRISTIAN believers -- but not to judge non-Christians. To non-Christians, I believe Christians are to merely preach the good news that Christ came and died for our sins, so that through him (the bridge between the gap of man and sweet eternity), we can all have salvation.

To all the Christians: Of what good is it to tell those who do not believe in Christ's sacrifice to resist the temptation to sin? In the race of life, is this the first hurdle that we need to be helping them over?

Should we not RESTRAIN ourselves from putting the cart before the horse in regards to reaching those who do not believe in or accept Christ? I believe we should.

 

[kdet]

A few questions....

In order for a minister (doctor so to speak) to reach the sinners, will he not have to associate with them but not partake in their sins? I believe so.

And, secondly, was not the message of Jesus (and John the Baptist) to repent of sin? I believe so and that that was his message while he was hanging out with them.

Thirdly, can it not be reasonably assumed that those so called "sinners" who continued to follow Jesus about do so because they either were experiencing the joy, peace, and freedom of repenting of their sins, or they were still trying to clear the sinful hurdle in their lives and were seeking the way?

--------

Granted, I have little doubt that many of the 'sinners' who were following Jesus sometimes slipped back into sin due to weakness of the flesh as many Christians of today and yesterday have done, and as many of the Jewish peoples of the Old Testament accounts have done. This said, yes Jesus was among sinners...

But, I ask this...... "Where on EARTH could Jesus have gone to be in the presence of non-sinners?" The temple? No. The market place? No. His hometown? No.

Jesus' actions were simple. Announce the kingdom of Heaven is near and REPENT. Why to prostitutes and drunkards? Because they were not blind in hypocracy like the Pharasees in the temple.... The prostitutes and drunkards understood the law and at least knew they were in sin -- Many leaders of the religion would not recognize or acknowledge their sins,,, nor repent. Jesus showed compassion by reaching to those who at least acknowledged the sin in their lives and he did not turn away from them like the uncompassionate, blind temple leaders who sat in Moses' seat. Although Jesus did preach to the temple leaders, they would not accept his message.... The 'sinners' did accept his message and, as such, Jesus stayed among them...

And besides, in another light, Jesus was merely doing the work that the temple leaders had failed to do! Reach out to the sinners and call them to repent...... The leaders of the temple, who sat in Moses' seat, do what many Christian leaders do today --- they waited for the 'sinners' to come to them at the temple and other 'holy' sites, rather than they going to the sinners.

In the end, in the eyes of God, we are all sinners!

And, in the eyes of God, we all need to acknowledge our sins and repent.

Terrific post CBK!

 

[kdet]

In the end, I believe that God is a God of RESTRAINT.

In the snap of a finger, God could destroy 100% of us, Christian and non-Christian, for we are ALL in sin. But he has promised not to by restaining himself.

IMO, God calls us to RESTRAIN ourselves from the temptations that lead us to sin and to repent when we do sin. This should be the spiritual battle to those who believe in God -- Restrain from temptation and repent when we fail..

In regards to judging, I believe Christians are called to judge OTHER CHRISTIAN believers -- but not to judge non-Christians. To non-Christians, I believe Christians are to merely preach the good news that Christ came and died for our sins, so that through him (the bridge between the gap of man and sweet eternity), we can all have salvation.

To all the Christians: Of what good is it to tell those who do not believe in Christ's sacrifice to resist the temptation to sin? In the race of life, is this the first hurdle that we need to be helping them over?

Should we not RESTRAIN ourselves from putting the cart before the horse in regards to reaching those who do not believe in or accept Christ? I believe we should.

Ok, I am confused here. You and Bear both say we are to judge other Christians but not non -Christians. So does that mean that the preachers that give altar call and say to the non-Christians in the congregation that they need to repent and become saved need to repent or they will go to hell..are they wrong to do this? Isn't that judging?

Secondly..how can I NOT judge someone like Hitler or Mussolini or someone like Ted Bundy? I'm sure they were not Christians?
Please I'm really not trying to be arguementive I want to understand from another Christian viewpoint.

 

[SqueezetheShaman]

Bear, forgive me for stepping in. And sweetkitty can ignore this, since it isn't a christian viewpoint. But can't you kind of just use common sense (for lack of a better term) I mean....If you believe they are sinning, fine I don't even mind someone telling me once. twice. a few times. But when you begin to make correlations between that sin and another, one that everyone can agree is just despicable (to the average person) It looks as though you are just tryign to make it sound worse than it is. And then, you use sources to defend yourself that are inaccurate and fly in the face of factual reality, it shows that you either A) silly for believing it or B) dont care but just want any fuel you can get your hands on to make it sound (again) even worse than it is (which in my book is the same as lyiing) sorry if I am rambling, but I have really been trying to understand the intense dislike of and lies that are used to support the rally against homosexuality.

 

[cbk]

Ok, I am confused here. You and Bear both say we are to judge other Christians but not non -Christians. So does that mean that the preachers that give altar call and say to the non-Christians in the congregation that they need to repent and become saved need to repent or they will go to hell..are they wrong to do this? Isn't that judging?

Secondly..how can I NOT judge someone like Hitler or Mussolini or someone like Ted Bundy? I'm sure they were not Christians?
Please I'm really not trying to be arguementive I want to understand from another Christian viewpoint.

It's simply this: The Christian GOAL towards Christians and Non-Christians SHOULD be different.

To the Christian, a Christian has the right and duty to judge other Christians on matters of MORAL issues. It is scriptural and its purpose SHOULD BE because we LOVE them and desire that they become holy vessels of Christ and be made in the perfect image of Christ. By instructing (or judging, if you will) them on matters of morality, their spiritual walk IN Christ will be more fragrant.

In regards to the NON-Christian, it is futile (from a Christian standpoint) for a Christian to judge Non-Christians on MORAL issues. What is the goal and purpose of doing otherwise? To make them appear to be like Christians??? IF so, this would be pointless, for there is still on the table the question of SALVATION which does not come from works, but from accepting the sacrifice of Christ.

No, in regards to the NON-Christian, a Christian should focus on preaching that the kingdom of Heaven is near and that through Christ you can escape the judgement which will fall upon the world. It is not necessary for them to know which THIS and THATS are proper to God and which THIS and THATS are abominations -- Non-Christians need to understand that Christ is the way, the truth, and the life.

They can accept it or not.

Some of the hurdles of life that we must overcome are as follows:

1st -- Believe in God
2nd -- Believe in Christ and his sacrifice for sin
3rd -- Be eager to please God through Christ

When Christians debate Christians over matters of morality, we are trying to help define the 3rd hurdle and overcome it. Sometimes we judge other Christians over what is clear in scripture.

But, it is pointless to try to help others clear this 3rd hurdle through our debates of morality when many have yet to clear the 2nd, or even the 1st hurdle.

It most likely won't work.... And even if it did, it would be pointless because they haven't cleared the first two hurdles yet.

This is just my opinion from a Christian point of view... Love you all.

 

[Inspired]

My impression (and I have known to be wrong) is that these persons who don't know Jesus are the ones who have never heard of him (like remote tribes, countries, etc - harder and harder to find in these times), not the ones who don't know him personally or spiritually, but heard of him and said "no".

Throughout the bible the word "know" is translated as knew well, and sometimes have carnal knowledge of. e.g. Seth knew his wife.

There is a distinct difference between knowing of Jesus, and knowing Jesus.

 

[Yitzchak]

Bear, forgive me for stepping in. And sweetkitty can ignore this, since it isn't a christian viewpoint. But can't you kind of just use common sense (for lack of a better term) I mean....If you believe they are sinning, fine I don't even mind someone telling me once. twice. a few times. But when you begin to make correlations between that sin and another, one that everyone can agree is just despicable (to the average person) It looks as though you are just tryign to make it sound worse than it is. And then, you use sources to defend yourself that are inaccurate and fly in the face of factual reality, it shows that you either A) silly for believing it or B) dont care but just want any fuel you can get your hands on to make it sound (again) even worse than it is (which in my book is the same as lyiing) sorry if I am rambling, but I have really been trying to understand the intense dislike of and lies that are used to support the rally against homosexuality.

Yay. Common sense theology. Jesus used common sense theology.

 

[BarbB]

Throughout the bible the word "know" is translated as knew well, and sometimes have carnal knowledge of. e.g. Seth knew his wife.

There is a distinct difference between knowing of Jesus, and knowing Jesus.

Good point! We need a scriptural passage here, but I'm too young a Christian to find one - any help from you elders?

 

[BarbB]

It's simply this: The Christian GOAL towards Christians and Non-Christians SHOULD be different.

...In regards to the NON-Christian, it is futile (from a Christian standpoint) for a Christian to judge Non-Christians on MORAL issues. What is the goal and purpose of doing otherwise? To make them appear to be like Christians??? IF so, this would be pointless, for there is still on the table the question of SALVATION which does not come from works, but from accepting the sacrifice of Christ.

No, in regards to the NON-Christian, a Christian should focus on preaching that the kingdom of Heaven is near and that through Christ you can escape the judgement which will fall upon the world. It is not necessary for them to know which THIS and THATS are proper to God and which THIS and THATS are abominations -- Non-Christians need to understand that Christ is the way, the truth, and the life.

They can accept it or not.

Some of the hurdles of life that we must overcome are as follows:

1st -- Believe in God
2nd -- Believe in Christ and his sacrifice for sin
3rd -- Be eager to please God through Christ

When Christians debate Christians over matters of morality, we are trying to help define the 3rd hurdle and overcome it. Sometimes we judge other Christians over what is clear in scripture.

But, it is pointless to try to help others clear this 3rd hurdle through our debates of morality when many have yet to clear the 2nd, or even the 1st hurdle.

It most likely won't work.... And even if it did, it would be pointless because they haven't cleared the first two hurdles yet.

This is just my opinion from a Christian point of view... Love you all.

WOW! That was great! BUMP!

 

[cbk]

WOW! That was great! BUMP!

Thank you... What does BUMP mean?

 

[Plan 9]

WOW! That was great! BUMP!

It is a wonderful post, isn't it?

 

[Plan 9]

Thank you... What does BUMP mean?

In this case your post has been "bumped" to the end of the thread, so that we can read it again and so that new people can read it for the first time.
It's quite a compliment, cbk.

If you like an old thread which has "disappeared" or is at the bottom of the forum thread list because it hasn't been posted on for a long time, posting on it will "bump" it to the top of the list and mods sometimes just type "bump" or "test" when doing so.

 

[BarbB]

I bumped your essay to the top, where it belongs! Whee, I bumped it again!!!

It's simply this: The Christian GOAL towards Christians and Non-Christians SHOULD be different.

To the Christian, a Christian has the right and duty to judge other Christians on matters of MORAL issues. It is scriptural and its purpose SHOULD BE because we LOVE them and desire that they become holy vessels of Christ and be made in the perfect image of Christ. By instructing (or judging, if you will) them on matters of morality, their spiritual walk IN Christ will be more fragrant.

In regards to the NON-Christian, it is futile (from a Christian standpoint) for a Christian to judge Non-Christians on MORAL issues. What is the goal and purpose of doing otherwise? To make them appear to be like Christians??? IF so, this would be pointless, for there is still on the table the question of SALVATION which does not come from works, but from accepting the sacrifice of Christ.

No, in regards to the NON-Christian, a Christian should focus on preaching that the kingdom of Heaven is near and that through Christ you can escape the judgement which will fall upon the world. It is not necessary for them to know which THIS and THATS are proper to God and which THIS and THATS are abominations -- Non-Christians need to understand that Christ is the way, the truth, and the life.

They can accept it or not.

Some of the hurdles of life that we must overcome are as follows:

1st -- Believe in God
2nd -- Believe in Christ and his sacrifice for sin
3rd -- Be eager to please God through Christ

When Christians debate Christians over matters of morality, we are trying to help define the 3rd hurdle and overcome it. Sometimes we judge other Christians over what is clear in scripture.

But, it is pointless to try to help others clear this 3rd hurdle through our debates of morality when many have yet to clear the 2nd, or even the 1st hurdle.

It most likely won't work.... And even if it did, it would be pointless because they haven't cleared the first two hurdles yet.

This is just my opinion from a Christian point of view... Love you all.

 

[BarbB]

Ok I'm under control now - boy that was fun! lol!

 

[RaptureTicketHolder]

Ive come to believe that judgement includes punishment - and Ive yet to dole that out to anyone but maybe my kids or myself.

Ive found it interesting how folks so easily confuse discernment and judgement.

I can discern that you are not doing what is right in my eyes and I can say, HEY Ive noticed your actions. But I do not include saying, because of your actions you will get this or that.

Now, there is only one exception to this that I can think of: if in your wrong, I avoid you in my descernment - you do not like my avoidence you can take that as "punishment" hence, judgement.

Most likely though oranges will stay with oranges and apples with apples and my thoughts dont bother you to the point of feeling punished.

SO anyway, the problem is not within judgement its discernment and I think many resent discernment.

 

[lunachick]

Ok, I heard some Christian judging yesterday, first hand, and it sounded to me like malicious gossip.

My daughter and I were at the hot pools having a soak in one of the many geothermal pools. As I lay back in the water relaxing, two women were on the other side chatting. I'd worked out that they were from one of the evangelical churches in town, and they were judging another woman rather harshly.

The woman, who of course was not there, was being slandered for her decision to leave her husband, and they were going on and on about the couple, and how God had said marriage is for life, and how she must stay with this guy, and now she is a sinner and how can she have the gall to show her face in church.

What I learned of this womans husband as I lay there, was that he gambles and drinks all the money away, sleeps around like he was single, and occassionally hits her - but only when he's drunk, mind you :rollseyes:, which sounded to me like every Thursday thru' Sunday.

Now these two women were judging him like a poor sinner who needed saving, and that his poor wife should be there for him, trying to save him. But that the wife was a terrible woman - she had broken a vow with God by "destroying" her marriage. You have no idea how hard it was for me to keep my mouth shut as I listened to this! Actually, as I now write this, I wish I hadn't kept my mouth shut!! Grrrr.

If this woman can find a new love; one that is healthy, true to her, and brings out the best in her and her children, then more power to her - why God would deny this woman and her children that happiness and love is beyond me? And why those vicious, nasty women from her Church could not wish her well and hope for the best for her instead of condemning her as they did is also beyond me. Where is the love?

People can be very quick to judge, and if you refer to a topic in this forum called something like "The Seeds of Satan", you will see that sometimes judgements are nothing more than a projection of one's own psychosis. Just like drug-induced psychosis, there is religion-induced psychosis - and from that can come some of the most dangerous judgements of all - every one of them feeling like righteous judgement to the one doing the judging. eg. The Witch Trials ring a bell with anyone? Newborn babies as demons?