"judaizing"

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

Saying a Christian is a "judaizer" is ridiculous! The 2 terms are mutually exclusive! Rabbinic Jews do not believe that Jesus is the Messiah. That is like saying a Jew can be a "Christianizer" LOL! Any thoughts?

 

[Shiranui117]

It depends--how are we defining "Judaism" here? And what form does this "Judaizing" take, and in what mindset is it being done?

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

It depends--how are we defining "Judaism" here? And what form does this "Judaizing" take, and in what mindset is it being done?

Actually NO it does not depend. Read what I wrote again...

 

[GreekOrthodox]

Historically, Judizing referred to Christians who started observing Jewish feasts, such as Pesach, Sukkot and others. Different authors such as St. Paul and St. John Chrysostom wrote against these practices (fairly polemically I might add). Basically, these saints saw that Christianity needed to separate from Judaism. So today, Christians who have Christianized Seders or celebrate Jewish feasts are doing exactly what these saints wrote against. First, Christ is our passover. Second, these Christianized Seders are very historically inaccurate as we dont know what the structure of the Passover meal was in Jesus time. Finally, there are a lot of anachronisms in modern Seders. For example, the holes and burn marks on modern matzos are due to the modern baking process. Christian Seders say these represent the holes from the nails and "stripes" by which we are healed. This is completely inaccurate and as Mel Brooks would say "The ring is bupkis, the schwartz is in you!"
Brian

 

[ContraMundum]

Historically, Judizing referred to Christians who started observing Jewish feasts, such as Pesach, Sukkot and others.

"Started" or "Continued in"?

It was never about the rite, but about the place it had in theology. Think about it.

Different authors such as...St. John Chrysostom wrote against these practices (fairly polemically I might add).

Polemically? Understatement of the week. Chrysostom was vile and violent towards his Jewish neighbours. Apparently when he wrote those hideous tracts against Jewish Christians and other Jews he completely threw the commandment to love your neighbour out the window. "Saint"? Really? What kind of saint abrogates God's Holy commandments for his outbursts of rage?

His words have planted a deep hatred for the Jews in the hearts of many of the Orthodox. This has resulted in centuries of bloody persecution and violence. It has led to blood libels, pogroms and eventually to the concentration camps.

Chrysostom's words agains the Jews are despicable and quite dishonest. His use of scripture against them is clumsy and would embarass a first year theology student. I think he just tried to uncircumcise Christ, Moses and the Apostles. Plain old racism.

Basically, these saints saw that Christianity needed to separate from Judaism. So today, Christians who have Christianized Seders or celebrate Jewish feasts are doing exactly what these saints wrote against. First, Christ is our passover. Second, these Christianized Seders are very historically inaccurate as we dont know what the structure of the Passover meal was in Jesus time. Finally, there are a lot of anachronisms in modern Seders. For example, the holes and burn marks on modern matzos are due to the modern baking process. Christian Seders say these represent the holes from the nails and "stripes" by which we are healed. This is completely inaccurate and as Mel Brooks would say "The ring is bupkis, the schwartz is in you!"
Brian

Brian, not good. No offence, but as a Jewish Christian I can say I know that I can celebrate a Seder- as my ancestors have done for millenia- and that I can do so in good conscience. The Seder is celebrated amongst our people because it is our history. It is commanded by God. Those of us called to faith in Christ know full well that Holy Communion witnesses by anamnesis a different event (even though it was instituted - probably- on Pesach), and as such the annual Pesach Seder was never abolished for the Jews- just modified. Christ is our Passover, we know this. But God also brought us as a people out of Egypt. We celebrate both. If you have a problem with it, go read Rom 14- then you can just leave us alone, or continue to spread prejudice by being passive or just outright join the WBC. Up to you.

Secondly, you claim that our Seder is inaccurate because no one knows exactly how it was done by Christ. Wouldn't that same argument completely undermine your own liturgy? We can easily trace the origins of your liturgy. We know how it developed, who some of the authors are, and we know that most of it is based on Christian tradition and even that some in your churches observe some customs bourne out of pagan cultures. So, if you have your tradition, language and culture why do you try to kill ours, which is based on God's commandments?

IOW- how come you get your cultural rites and autocephalous practices and deny us ours? We want our own Hebrew rite, and God willing, we will get it back.

So, you also have problems with matzah? Big deal. God has directed some interesting customs amongst our people that witness of Christ. It doesn't matter when they came into being. The same kind of phenomena are found going before missionaries to the heathen. I could give you examples but I know you should know a few of them already.

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

Historically, Judizing referred to Christians who started observing Jewish feasts, such as Pesach, Sukkot and others. Different authors such as St. Paul and St. John Chrysostom wrote against these practices (fairly polemically I might add). Basically, these saints saw that Christianity needed to separate from Judaism. So today, Christians who have Christianized Seders or celebrate Jewish feasts are doing exactly what these saints wrote against. First, Christ is our passover. Second, these Christianized Seders are very historically inaccurate as we dont know what the structure of the Passover meal was in Jesus time. Finally, there are a lot of anachronisms in modern Seders. For example, the holes and burn marks on modern matzos are due to the modern baking process. Christian Seders say these represent the holes from the nails and "stripes" by which we are healed. This is completely inaccurate and as Mel Brooks would say "The ring is bupkis, the schwartz is in you!"
Brian

So you are saying that Rabbinic Jews of today do not know the correct form of a Seder? The events described in the Bible are not correct?

 

[kellhus]

"Started" or "Continued in"? It was never about the rite, but about the place it had in theology. Think about it. Polemically? Understatement of the week. Chrysostom was vile and violent towards his Jewish neighbours. Apparently when he wrote those hideous tracts against Jewish Christians and other Jews he completely threw the commandment to love your neighbour out the window. "Saint"? Really? What kind of saint abrogates God's Holy commandments for his outbursts of rage? His words have planted a deep hatred for the Jews in the hearts of many of the Orthodox. This has resulted in centuries of bloody persecution and violence. It has led to blood libels, pogroms and eventually to the concentration camps. Chrysostom's words agains the Jews are despicable and quite dishonest. His use of scripture against them is clumsy and would embarass a first year theology student. I think he just tried to uncircumcise Christ, Moses and the Apostles. Plain old racism. Brian, not good. No offence, but as a Jewish Christian I can say I know that I can celebrate a Seder- as my ancestors have done for millenia- and that I can do so in good conscience. The Seder is celebrated amongst our people because it is our history. It is commanded by God. Those of us called to faith in Christ know full well that Holy Communion witnesses by anamnesis a different event (even though it was instituted - probably- on Pesach), and as such the annual Pesach Seder was never abolished for the Jews- just modified. Christ is our Passover, we know this. But God also brought us as a people out of Egypt. We celebrate both. If you have a problem with it, go read Rom 14- then you can just leave us alone, or continue to spread prejudice by being passive or just outright join the WBC. Up to you. Secondly, you claim that our Seder is inaccurate because no one knows exactly how it was done by Christ. Wouldn't that same argument completely undermine your own liturgy? We can easily trace the origins of your liturgy. We know how it developed, who some of the authors are, and we know that most of it is based on Christian tradition and even that some in your churches observe some customs bourne out of pagan cultures. So, if you have your tradition, language and culture why do you try to kill ours, which is based on God's commandments? IOW- how come you get your cultural rites and autocephalous practices and deny us ours? We want our own Hebrew rite, and God willing, we will get it back. So, you also have problems with matzah? Big deal. God has directed some interesting customs amongst our people that witness of Christ. It doesn't matter when they came into being. The same kind of phenomena are found going before missionaries to the heathen. I could give you examples but I know you should know a few of them already.

Angry ad hominems against St. John Chrysostom aren't likely to gain much traction in an Eastern Orthodox forum. Just sayin'.

I did find your claim that Eastern Orthodoxy is responsible for Nazi concentration camps amusing, however.

 

[GreekOrthodox]

The earliest Seder haggadahs go back to the 10th century. We dont have much earlier than that.

"The oldest extant version however is in the prayer book (siddur) of Saadiah Gaon (10th century; ed. by I. Davidson, S. Assaf and B.I. Joel, 1941); other early versions are found in Maimonides' Mishneh Torah (12th century) and in Maḥzor Vitry (11th century). " - Haggadah, Passover

Go ahead, state your case against published material from a Jewish website.

Oh BTW, I do have a bachelors in religious studies and the majority of my credits are in Judaic studies.

 

[Shiranui117]

Actually NO it does not depend. Read what I wrote again...

Well, there's the Rabbinic Judaism (which I assume you're referring to when talking about "Judaizing") of today, which is younger than Orthodox Christianity. And then there's the Judaism of the first century AD. And further than that, there's the religious practices and prayers of the Jews vs. the Jewish culture and the traditions unique to that culture.

And one can "Judaize" by living out their Orthodox Christianity in obedience to the Church (emphasis on obedience to the Church) while still honoring the Jewish roots of our faith that we've inherited, or one can "Judaize" by preferring Jewish customs over and above Orthodox Christian practices; i.e. neglecting to participate in the fasts, feasts, and prayer+sacramental life of the Church in favor of following the Jewish rites and celebrations.

And there's "Judaizing" in the sense of taking on some aspects of the Law as one feels led by the Spirit to do so, and there's Judaizing in the sense of trying to follow the entire Law because you think obedience to the Law is vital for salvation.

So yeah, it kinda does depend... Could you define exactly what you mean when you say "Judaizing"?

 

[ArmyMatt]

"Started" or "Continued in"?

It was never about the rite, but about the place it had in theology. Think about it.



Polemically? Understatement of the week. Chrysostom was vile and violent towards his Jewish neighbours. Apparently when he wrote those hideous tracts against Jewish Christians and other Jews he completely threw the commandment to love your neighbour out the window. "Saint"? Really? What kind of saint abrogates God's Holy commandments for his outbursts of rage?

His words have planted a deep hatred for the Jews in the hearts of many of the Orthodox. This has resulted in centuries of bloody persecution and violence. It has led to blood libels, pogroms and eventually to the concentration camps.

Chrysostom's words agains the Jews are despicable and quite dishonest. His use of scripture against them is clumsy and would embarass a first year theology student. I think he just tried to uncircumcise Christ, Moses and the Apostles. Plain old racism.



Brian, not good. No offence, but as a Jewish Christian I can say I know that I can celebrate a Seder- as my ancestors have done for millenia- and that I can do so in good conscience. The Seder is celebrated amongst our people because it is our history. It is commanded by God. Those of us called to faith in Christ know full well that Holy Communion witnesses by anamnesis a different event (even though it was instituted - probably- on Pesach), and as such the annual Pesach Seder was never abolished for the Jews- just modified. Christ is our Passover, we know this. But God also brought us as a people out of Egypt. We celebrate both. If you have a problem with it, go read Rom 14- then you can just leave us alone, or continue to spread prejudice by being passive or just outright join the WBC. Up to you.

Secondly, you claim that our Seder is inaccurate because no one knows exactly how it was done by Christ. Wouldn't that same argument completely undermine your own liturgy? We can easily trace the origins of your liturgy. We know how it developed, who some of the authors are, and we know that most of it is based on Christian tradition and even that some in your churches observe some customs bourne out of pagan cultures. So, if you have your tradition, language and culture why do you try to kill ours, which is based on God's commandments?

IOW- how come you get your cultural rites and autocephalous practices and deny us ours? We want our own Hebrew rite, and God willing, we will get it back.

So, you also have problems with matzah? Big deal. God has directed some interesting customs amongst our people that witness of Christ. It doesn't matter when they came into being. The same kind of phenomena are found going before missionaries to the heathen. I could give you examples but I know you should know a few of them already.

.......riiiiiiiiiiiiiiight. and I am sure Martin Luther is the one who really started the Holocaust. I think someone needs to put down the John Hagee anti-Church father haterade.

 

[Joseph Hazen]

To say that one cannot commit a heresy that has been defined as a heresy by the Fathers and The Church for millennia should make one stop and re-consider one's opinion. It's never safe to stand against The Church. Individuals do not get to decide what a heresy is and what it is not. We are not here to save The Church.

For a non-Orthodox to come onto an Orthodox board and insult Orthodox saints is the height of rudeness. I believe, Contra Mundum, you either need to apologize to St. John Chrysostom or not post here again if you're incapable of being civil in someone else's house.

If you are of Jewish descent, and Orthodox, and want to keep celebrating Jewish celebrations ask your priest. Done. If he says stop, you stop. If he says continue, you get to without any other Orthodox being able to tell you otherwise. If those celebrations in some way conflict with Orthodox theology, I can save you a trip to the priest.

 

[GreekOrthodox]

"Started" or "Continued in"?
Brian, not good. No offence, but as a Jewish Christian I can say I know that I can celebrate a Seder- as my ancestors have done for millenia- and that I can do so in good conscience. The Seder is celebrated amongst our people because it is our history. It is commanded by God. Those of us called to faith in Christ know full well that Holy Communion witnesses by anamnesis a different event (even though it was instituted - probably- on Pesach), and as such the annual Pesach Seder was never abolished for the Jews- just modified. Christ is our Passover, we know this. But God also brought us as a people out of Egypt. We celebrate both. If you have a problem with it, go read Rom 14- then you can just leave us alone, or continue to spread prejudice by being passive or just outright join the WBC. Up to you.

Secondly, you claim that our Seder is inaccurate because no one knows exactly how it was done by Christ. Wouldn't that same argument completely undermine your own liturgy? We can easily trace the origins of your liturgy. We know how it developed, who some of the authors are, and we know that most of it is based on Christian tradition and even that some in your churches observe some customs bourne out of pagan cultures. So, if you have your tradition, language and culture why do you try to kill ours, which is based on God's commandments?

IOW- how come you get your cultural rites and autocephalous practices and deny us ours? We want our own Hebrew rite, and God willing, we will get it back.

Honestly, I dont give a patooty what you do. You're not in the Eastern Orthodox Church. I dont care that other denominations have clown Masses or liturgical dancing. But I do find the attempt to Christianize distinctly Rabbinic rituals and beliefs to be theologically dishonest and insulting to the Judaism. And so do my Jewish friends, neighbors and co-workers.

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

If you are of Jewish descent, and Orthodox, and want to keep celebrating Jewish celebrations ask your priest. Done. If he says stop, you stop. If he says continue, you get to without any other Orthodox being able to tell you otherwise. If those celebrations in some way conflict with Orthodox theology, I can save you a trip to the priest.

We DO celebrate Jewish holy Days...Passover (Pascha) as well as Shavuot (Pentecost). We celebrate that at the same exact time but as a fulfillment.

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

But I do find the attempt to Christianize distinctly Rabbinic rituals and beliefs to be theologically dishonest and insulting to the Judaism. And so do my Jewish friends, neighbors and co-workers.

But that is exactly what the Church did! Passover and Shavout (as well as the others) are not "rabbinic rituals", they were instituted by God. Yeshua fulfilled them.

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

The earliest Seder haggadahs go back to the 10th century. We dont have much earlier than that.

"The oldest extant version however is in the prayer book (siddur) of Saadiah Gaon (10th century; ed. by I. Davidson, S. Assaf and B.I. Joel, 1941); other early versions are found in Maimonides' Mishneh Torah (12th century) and in Maḥzor Vitry (11th century). " - Haggadah, Passover

Go ahead, state your case against published material from a Jewish website.

Oh BTW, I do have a bachelors in religious studies and the majority of my credits are in Judaic studies.

So you DO know that John taught Polycarp to hold to the 14th? Need I say more?

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

Well, there's the Rabbinic Judaism (which I assume you're referring to when talking about "Judaizing") of today, which is younger than Orthodox Christianity. And then there's the Judaism of the first century AD. And further than that, there's the religious practices and prayers of the Jews vs. the Jewish culture and the traditions unique to that culture.

And one can "Judaize" by living out their Orthodox Christianity in obedience to the Church (emphasis on obedience to the Church) while still honoring the Jewish roots of our faith that we've inherited, or one can "Judaize" by preferring Jewish customs over and above Orthodox Christian practices; i.e. neglecting to participate in the fasts, feasts, and prayer+sacramental life of the Church in favor of following the Jewish rites and celebrations.

And there's "Judaizing" in the sense of taking on some aspects of the Law as one feels led by the Spirit to do so, and there's Judaizing in the sense of trying to follow the entire Law because you think obedience to the Law is vital for salvation.

So yeah, it kinda does depend... Could you define exactly what you mean when you say "Judaizing"?

A Christian can not Judaize because he believes that Yeshua is the Messiah. It makes no sense, that is my point. Nobody can follow the whole of the Law (especially now Jews can't with no Temple, that is why Rabbinic Judaism began). However we do try to follow it...through Christ's example. Do we not try to follow the 10 Commandments?

 

[kellhus]

But that is exactly what the Church did! Passover and Shavout (as well as the others) are not "rabbinic rituals", they were instituted by God. Yeshua fulfilled them.

Actually, the very first Church council, led by the Apostles, forbade Judaic practices among believers. St. John Chrysostom emphasized this to his congregation in Constantinople in his homilies Adversus Judaeos, because he had problems with people skipping Church in order to attend rituals of Judaism. He, as Archbishop, rightfully condemned what they were doing in the strongest terms.

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

our[/U] history. It is commanded by God. Those of us called to faith in Christ know full well that Holy Communion witnesses by anamnesis a different event (even though it was instituted - probably- on Pesach), and as such the annual Pesach Seder was never abolished for the Jews- just modified. Christ is our Passover, we know this. But God also brought us as a people out of Egypt. We celebrate both. If you have a problem with it, go read Rom 14- then you can just leave us alone, or continue to spread prejudice by being passive or just outright join the WBC. Up to you.

Secondly, you claim that our Seder is inaccurate because no one knows exactly how it was done by Christ. Wouldn't that same argument completely undermine your own liturgy? We can easily trace the origins of your liturgy. We know how it developed, who some of the authors are, and we know that most of it is based on Christian tradition and even that some in your churches observe some customs bourne out of pagan cultures. So, if you have your tradition, language and culture why do you try to kill ours, which is based on God's commandments?

IOW- how come you get your cultural rites and autocephalous practices and deny us ours? We want our own Hebrew rite, and God willing, we will get it back.

Who here disagrees with the above, and if so, why?

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

Actually, the very first Church council, led by the Apostles, forbade Judaic practices among believers. St. John Chrysostom emphasized this to his congregation in Constantinople in his homilies Adversus Judaeos, because he had problems with people skipping Church in order to attend rituals of Judaism. He, as Archbishop, rightfully condemned what they were doing in the strongest terms.

The Council in Jerusalem? Forbade Judaic practices? Not for Jews they did not! These Jewish believers in Yeshua continued even going to the Temple! They even instituted the Noahide laws on gentiles.

So these Jewish Christians were really Jews and really did not believe that Yeshua was messiah? And that angered Chrysostom? So he was mad because they missed Church?

 

[kellhus]

Who here disagrees with the above, and if so, why?

I do, and pretty much all of it.

Here's a good rebuttal.

"(6) But someone might say: "Is there so much harm in circumcision that it makes Christ's whole plan of redemption useless? Yes, the harm of circumcision is as great as that, not because of its own but because of your obstinacy. There was a time when the law was useful and necessary, but now it has ceased and is fruitless. If you take it on yourself to be circumcised now, when the time is no longer right, it makes the gift of God useless. It is because you are not willing to come to him that Christ will be of no advantage to you. Suppose someone should be caught in the act of adultery and the foulest crimes and then be thrown into prison. Suppose, next, that judgment was going to be passed against him and that he would be condemned. Suppose that just at that moment a letter should come from the Emperor setting free from any accounting or examination all those detained in prison. If the prisoner should refuse to take advantage of the pardon, remain obstinate and choose to be brought to trial, to give an account, and to undergo punishment, he will not be able thereafter to avail himself of the Emperor's favor. For when he made himself accountable to the court, examination, and sentence, he chose of his own accord to deprive himself of the imperial gift.

(7) This is what happened in the case of the Jews. Look how it is. All human nature was taken in the foulest evils. "All have sinned," say Paul. They were locked, as it were, in a prison by the curse of their transgression of the Law. The sentence of the judge was going to be passed against them. A letter from the King came down from heaven. Rather, the King himself came. Without examination, without exacting an account, he set all men free from the claims of their sin."


--St. John Chrysostom, Adversus Judaeos, Homily II.6-7