Jonah

FaithT · Jul 31, 2020

How does the LCMS explain the story of Jonah? I mean I’ve read enough to be convinced that SOME fish could swallow a man whole but how does the LCMS explain how Jonah could breathe in the belly of a big fish?
Some fish gulp air and dive back down into the water but then the air would go into the fishes’ lungs not belly.

FaithT · Jul 31, 2020

Anyone?

Ann77 · Jul 31, 2020

If he was kept alive, I assume God kept Jonah alive through His hand. Some say he died for three days and was later resurrected from the dead like Christ (Jonah 2:10; Mt 12:40).

FaithT · Aug 1, 2020

Anyone else?

Daniel9v9 · Aug 2, 2020

The orthodox Lutheran position - and that includes the LCMS - is that the story of Jonah is not figurative or symbolic, but literal. It's a miracle. There are many arguments we can make for this, but we can boil them down to two reasons: (1) There is nothing in the text of Jonah to suggest it's symbolic. And (2) our Lord Jesus Christ treats the story as literal and thus re-affirming its literacy.

Now, with this in mind, namely, that Jonah was in the belly of a fish for three days is a historical fact, we need to recognise that this was not a natural event, but a supernatural one - it was a miracle. And just as with any other miracles in Scriptures, we cannot and should not attempt to explain how it occurred.

Very simply: Does Scripture treat it as a historical fact? Yes. Can God in His power do it? Yes. Then there's no reason to doubt or question it.

In the case of Jonah, God may, for example, have provided air, or He may have changed the circumstances and laws of nature for Jonah so that he does not need air, or God may have used natural conditions unknown to us to support Jonah. Any of these ways, along with a number of others, are possible to God. But the Bible does not tell us how, because how a miracle occurs is not important. It's WHY it occurs that matters. And all miracles recorded for us in Scripture serve to point us to the person and works of Jesus Christ, the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world.

FaithT · Aug 3, 2020

Daniel9v9 said:
The orthodox Lutheran position - and that includes the LCMS - is that the story of Jonah is not figurative or symbolic, but literal. It's a miracle. There are many arguments we can make for this, but we can boil them down to two reasons: (1) There is nothing in the text of Jonah to suggest it's symbolic. And (2) our Lord Jesus Christ treats the story as literal and thus re-affirming its literacy.

Now, with this in mind, namely, that Jonah was in the belly of a fish for three days is a historical fact, we need to recognise that this was not a natural event, but a supernatural one - it was a miracle.

Something I need to remember.

FaithT · Aug 3, 2020

Hope1960 said:
How does the LCMS explain the story of Jonah? I mean I’ve read enough to be convinced that SOME fish could swallow a man whole but how does the LCMS explain how Jonah could breathe in the belly of a big fish?
Some fish gulp air and dive back down into the water but then the air would go into the fishes’ lungs not belly.

I’ve been reading about Jonah and how this miracle might have occurred. One article says there is no air in whale’s stomachs while another article says that some air is present. Besides a miracle, is there any air in the belly of a whale?

tampasteve · Aug 3, 2020

Hope1960 said:
I’ve been reading about Jonah and how this miracle might have occurred. One article says there is no air in whale’s stomachs while another article says that some air is present. Besides a miracle, is there any air in the belly of a whale?

I mean, maybe sometimes. It certainly would not be pleasant "air" however. More likely gases from partially digested foods than normal "air".

I don't think it really matters though...if one is going to take the position that it is a miracle, it would not matter if he was covered in water with no air for 3 days - it's a miracle. The moral of the story and imagery it foreshadows are probably more important than trying to solve how or if it happened. No science or history would matter at that point because the lesson is learned, then no one or any doubts can shake your conviction.

FaithT · Aug 3, 2020

tampasteve said:
I mean, maybe sometimes. It certainly would not be pleasant "air" however. More likely gases from partially digested foods than normal "air".

I don't think it really matters though...if one is going to take the position that it is a miracle, it would not matter if he was covered in water with no air for 3 days - it's a miracle. The moral of the story and imagery it foreshadows are probably more important than trying to solve how or if it happened. No science or history would matter at that point because the lesson is learned, then no one or any doubts can shake your conviction.

The article said “There is always some air in the whale’s stomach and as long as the animal it has swallowed is still alive,digestive activity will not begin.” Anyone know if this is true?

MarkRohfrietsch · Aug 3, 2020

The Bible tells us everything that God wants us to know, and it contains every thing that we need to know. How did a Virgin Conceive? How was a rotting Lazareth raised from the dead? How was the Temple Curtain rent? These are not explained, but the Bible tells us that they "are". If we have faith, that is sufficient; if it is not sufficient, then we don't have faith. It is that easy.

tampasteve · Aug 4, 2020

Hope1960 said:
The article said “There is always some air in the whale’s stomach and as long as the animal it has swallowed is still alive,digestive activity will not begin.” Anyone know if this is true?

I am not a marine biologist, though I have worked in animal care at a zoo in the past. I seriously doubt this to be true. Whales eat live fish, krill, etc. all the time, if they waited for them to die it would lengthen digestion time considerably. According to this article in the Smithsonian, sperm whales do not have "air" in their stomachs, just gases like methane. I would garner to assume this is the case in all toothed whales.

Other possible Jonah animals proposed have been whale sharks, but their esophagus is too small to swallow a human - it's only a few inches across. The same goes for baleen whales like blue whales and grey whales.

In the end the LCMS view is that we have to trust that it was a miracle, God provided the means to survive.

MarkRohfrietsch · Aug 4, 2020

tampasteve said:
I am not a marine biologist, though I have worked in animal care at a zoo in the past. I seriously doubt this to be true. Whales eat live fish, krill, etc. all the time, if they waited for them to die it would lengthen digestion time considerably. According to this article in the Smithsonian, sperm whales do not have "air" in their stomachs, just gases like methane. I would garner to assume this is the case in all toothed whales.

Other possible Jonah animals proposed have been whale sharks, but their esophagus is too small to swallow a human - it's only a few inches across. The same goes for baleen whales like blue whales and grey whales.

In the end the LCMS view is that we have to trust that it was a miracle, God provided the means to survive.

Not a whale, but a big fish according to scripture; some speculate a Grouper:

FaithT · Aug 4, 2020

MarkRohfrietsch said:
Not a whale, but a big fish according to scripture; some speculate a Grouper:

Man, that fish is gross.

FaithT · Aug 4, 2020

MarkRohfrietsch said:
Not a whale, but a big fish according to scripture; some speculate a Grouper: [/
Was Jonah Swallowed by a Fish or a Whale?
Ketos, translates to sea creature.

FaithT · Aug 4, 2020

Was Jonah Swallowed by a Fish or a Whale?

FaithT · Aug 4, 2020

Hope1960 said:
Was Jonah Swallowed by a Fish or a Whale?

Ketos is defined as a large sea creature.

MarkRohfrietsch · Aug 5, 2020

Hope1960 said:
Man, that fish is gross.

Very tasty too. They look like a giant small-mouth bass.

tampasteve · Aug 5, 2020

MarkRohfrietsch said:
Not a whale, but a big fish according to scripture; some speculate a Grouper:

It could be, that is why I mentioned the whale shark, which are fish (the largest fish) and would be large enough if not for the esophagus issue.

Hope1960 said:
Ketos is defined as a large sea creature.

Exactly the wording just is not clear enough to say what type of creature, if it even was a common animal. I mean, we are talking about a miracle, it does not even have to be a "real" animal that we are familiar with.

MarkRohfrietsch said:
Very tasty too. They look like a giant small-mouth bass.

They are a lot of fun to catch. Living in Tampa I go out a few times a year to catch grouper and snapper. The grouper are tough to reel in, but great to eat. The larger ones tend to have worms, so not so great in that aspect. Red grouper are the most common around here.

FaithT · Aug 5, 2020

tampasteve said:
It could be, that is why I mentioned the whale shark, which are fish (the largest fish) and would be large enough if not for the esophagus issue.

Exactly the wording just is not clear enough to say what type of creature, if it even was a common animal. I mean, we are talking about a miracle, it does not even have to be a "real" animal that we are familiar with.
.

Or like the article said, it could’ve even been an extinct dinosaur-type creature.

tampasteve · Aug 5, 2020

Hope1960 said:
Or like the article said, it could’ve even been an extinct dinosaur-type creature.

Absolutely, maybe a huge shark like a megalodon. We still have the oxygen issue with that though. In the end I think that we have to accept that it is a miracle, whatever animal might have been the vehicle here.

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