John Wesley and Holiness.

[Phil W]

So do you now accept that here are three possible interpretations of Romans 7 if there are three states that a man can find himself in? The saved, the unsaved and the partially saved? How would a partially saved man fit into the chapter?

Can you please point to which post provoked this question?

 

[renniks]

can't think of a single "system" that teaches a man CAN be free from sin.

I abhor studying the doctrines of men who don't initiate their theses with the acknowledgment that men can be non-sinners.
Nothing else matters!

I'm honestly confused. How can both these statements be correct? Are you trying to say that man can live sinless or not?

 

[Phil W]

QUOTE="renniks, post: 74277634, member: 226371"]I'm honestly confused. How can both these statements be correct? Are you trying to say that man can live sinless or not?[/QUOTE]
CAN!
My intention was to say that I didn't know of any of "men's" doctrines that promoted life without sin.
But God's doctrines do promote total obedience.

Would you be kind enough to edit your post to include the number of the post you are quoting?
Then I can go and see if I can fix some punctuation or something to clear up any misunderstandings.
Thanks.

 

[bmjackson]

bmjackson said:No I do not. The problem is that I have used the word Christian where I should have used the word carnal.


You said: That I can understand and agree with.It is how the Bible describes them. Already have come to Christ but have not been delivered from the power and presence of sin.They may be "at the door", but they still need to "go in".

bmjackson said: No it is not. I mean that the reality of what has been done, has not been 'applied' by the person.

you saidoesn't that mean they don't have the faith that it has been applied to them?

From this conversation I gathered that you agreed about the 'carnal' So now you say there is no such thing?

 

[bmjackson]

Though I see your point, I don't agree with it. Let's look at the verse with the parenthesized part cut out...

"The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us...by the resurrection of Jesus Christ."
How does baptism connect to the resurrection of Jesus Christ?
How does baptism save us "by" the resurrection if Jesus?
Romans 6:3-6 fills in the blanks.
In water baptism we take part in the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ.
It is the actual death and burial of our old selves and our own resurrection with Christ to walk in newness of life...rebirth.
Still, all of this is a moot point for those who don't turn from sin first.


At our "immersion" into Christ, His sanctifying blood is on us as it was on Him.
Peter writes..."Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin;" (1 Peter 4:1)
Jesus' blood is applied while we "suffered in the flesh" with Him.

I understand it as meaning that being baptised into Christ by death, Jesus Christ is resurrected within us. He cannot abide where sin exists so when the death of the old man has taken place in reality for the believer, that is that he consents to it knowing what it means (which the new believer does not) in total submission of the will, Christ will live His life in that person, walking as He walked in imparted and not imputed holiness.

I can't imagine Paul giving much thought to the ways of the heathens...outside of his thirty something (?) years of rubbing shoulders with them.
As my ministry doesn't involve juxtaposing with other sects, I simply supply what God offers and let the chips fall where they will.
They generally tell me all I need to know when they try to refute the grace of God. Either with accommodations for sin, or something else all the false sects have in common.
All the heathen sects are very much alike.
They all love sin more than they love God.

Paul understood where he could evengelise the Athenians by saying he had come to tell them who their 'Unknown' God was. You have to meet people where they are which is discerned by the Spirit.

 

[Phil W]

I understand it as meaning that being baptised into Christ by death,...

More precisely, baptized into Christ by our baptism ("immersion") into His death

...Jesus Christ is resurrected within us.

More precisely, we are joined with Him in His resurrection.
As we died and were buried "in Him", we are also raised with Him to walk in newness of life. (Rom 6:3-6)

He cannot abide where sin exists so when the death of the old man has taken place in reality for the believer, ...

That "reality" happens at out baptism into Him.
It is a real event.Real death. Real burial. And real reborn life.

...that is that he consents to it knowing what it means (which the new believer does not) in total submission of the will, Christ will live His life in that person, walking as He walked in imparted and not imputed holiness.

New believers are told of this before their baptism in Jesus' name for the remission of their past sins.

Paul understood where he could evangelize the Athenians by saying he had come to tell them who their 'Unknown' God was. You have to meet people where they are which is discerned by the Spirit.

It seemed to me that he had just seen their 'altar' as he passed by it.
He was very perceptive though, and used it to God's advantage.

 

[anna ~ grace]

I have a question here, if it's ok. My husband has taken us to a very small Holiness church near to us. They are old-school, Wesleyan-Holiness, with women dressed almost like Mennonites, or very conservative Pentecostals.

I noticed something about the way they pray; it's very emotional. No tongues, but lots of sighing and moaning during prayer. And groaning.

Is this a feature of Holiness worship?

 

[Phil W]

I have a question here, if it's ok. My husband has taken us to a very small Holiness church near to us. They are old-school, Wesleyan-Holiness, with women dressed almost like Mennonites, or very conservative Pentecostals.

I noticed something about the way they pray; it's very emotional. No tongues, but lots of sighing and moaning during prayer. And groaning.

Is this a feature of Holiness worship?

If you are asking me, I have no idea.
The manner of dress is biblical, (and not just for church time), but their manner of prayer, I'll leave for someone else to clarify.

 

[anna ~ grace]

If you are asking me, I have no idea.
The manner of dress is biblical, (and not just for church time), but their manner of prayer, I'll leave for someone else to clarify.

Thanks, Phil, I'd be interested to know.

 

[bmjackson]

I have never been in a church that calls itself holy so l cannot say. But what l can say is that their behaviour means nothing if they do not have their doctrine right and l do not know of any preacher that is teaching the correct understanding of entire sanctification. It has been lost.

 

[anna ~ grace]

Ok, so, I went hunting. I found an article on the decline of the Holiness movement in general;

The Holiness Movement: Dead or Alive?

and within it, found this;

"I am not yearning for the past. I believe the holiness movement, in many cases, had an abusive past. But in trying to correct these abuses, we overreacted.

Some (perhaps most) in the old holiness movement were legalistic and judgmental. So we became behavioral libertarians. Some were so ingrown as to never touch the world. So we became assimilated into the world and seldom touched God. Some were radically emotional, running the aisles, shouting, and "getting blessed." So we became orderly and respectable, and we labeled all such emotion as "leaning charismatic." Some were judgmental and rejecting of anyone who got divorced or had marriage problems. We became so accepting of divorce that it is quickly becoming a non-issue for all but the clergy—and even that is eroding. They preached a fearsome, vengeful God. Now we have a soft, easygoing Mister Rogers in the sky, "who loves you just the way you are."


~~~

Ok. So it sounds like a feature of some of the old-school Holiness worship involved shows of emotionalism and the kind of behavior that one might associate with some Pentecostals. This might be what I was seeing and hearing.

This sounds like it ties in to possible Holiness ideas concerning how the Holy Spirit works, and what signs a believer has that He is active in their lives.

 

[bmjackson]

Good link thanks. Emotionalism has been the signature of Pentecostalism whereas manifestations of the Spirit brings conviction and repentance to the believer which does involve the emotions but is primarily experienced in the spirit of man.

I think some folks think that if they act as if it is there, it will become real but that is not how God works.

I see signs that something is happening and have been reading doctoral theses that make me excited.

 

[Phil W]

Ok, so, I went hunting. I found an article on the decline of the Holiness movement in general;

The Holiness Movement: Dead or Alive?

and within it, found this;

"I am not yearning for the past. I believe the holiness movement, in many cases, had an abusive past. But in trying to correct these abuses, we overreacted.

Some (perhaps most) in the old holiness movement were legalistic and judgmental. So we became behavioral libertarians. Some were so ingrown as to never touch the world. So we became assimilated into the world and seldom touched God. Some were radically emotional, running the aisles, shouting, and "getting blessed." So we became orderly and respectable, and we labeled all such emotion as "leaning charismatic." Some were judgmental and rejecting of anyone who got divorced or had marriage problems. We became so accepting of divorce that it is quickly becoming a non-issue for all but the clergy—and even that is eroding. They preached a fearsome, vengeful God. Now we have a soft, easygoing Mister Rogers in the sky, "who loves you just the way you are."


~~~

Ok. So it sounds like a feature of some of the old-school Holiness worship involved shows of emotionalism and the kind of behavior that one might associate with some Pentecostals. This might be what I was seeing and hearing.

This sounds like it ties in to possible Holiness ideas concerning how the Holy Spirit works, and what signs a believer has that He is active in their lives.

I wonder if they equate "holiness" with living without sin?
The article never mentioned it, so I still have my doubts about them.

 

[Dave-W]

Ok. So it sounds like a feature of some of the old-school Holiness worship involved shows of emotionalism and the kind of behavior that one might associate with some Pentecostals. This might be what I was seeing and hearing.

Probably so. Remember the Pentecostal movement grew out of that culture.

It sounds very like what I grew up with in the Nazarene and Pentecostal circles back in the 1960s.

 

[Dave-W]

I do agree that the Holiness movement often focused on forbidding outward acts that were deemed to be overtly sinful. Like watching movies or television, women wearing pants or dresses/skirts above the knees, owning a deck of cards or dice, wearing makeup or jewelry. Men wearing facial hair and women cutting their hair. Anyone wearing short sleeve shirts.

My dad said one of his seminary profs (circa 1950) once quipped that the devil was taking over the homes in America and you could tell which ones by the horns growing on the roofs. (television antennae)

 

[Rawtheran]

I have never been in a church that calls itself holy so l cannot say. But what l can say is that their behaviour means nothing if they do not have their doctrine right and l do not know of any preacher that is teaching the correct understanding of entire sanctification. It has been lost.

In your opinion what is the correct definition of Entire Sanctification? I was taught in both the United Methodist Church and the Church of the Nazarene that Entire Sanctification is the process where a believer completely surrenders their lives to God and the Holy Spirit then purifies their hearts not making them perfect as in sinless but rather making them perfect in love and motivation. In a sense we are going on wards torwards perfection but will never achieve it until we pass away and go to Heaven.

 

[Phil W]

In your opinion what is the correct definition of Entire Sanctification? I was taught in both the United Methodist Church and the Church of the Nazarene that Entire Sanctification is the process where a believer completely surrenders their lives to God and the Holy Spirit then purifies their hearts not making them perfect as in sinless but rather making them perfect in love and motivation. In a sense we are going on wards towards perfection but will never achieve it until we pass away and go to Heaven.

If I maybe permitted to jump in here...
Sanctified: atoned for, made holy, cleansed, set apart, consecrated.
Those are the definitions of sanctified in the dictionary.
Heb 10:10 says..."By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all."
Heb 10:14 says..."For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified."
Past tense, done, over, or in other words...not a process...unless you call baptism a process.
Baptism is where the atoning, cleansing blood of Christ is applied to our bodies, cleansing us from all sin.
It happens when we are "immersed" into Christ and into His death. (Rom 6:3-7)

How can someone reborn of God's seed not be "sanctified" from the start?

 

[bmjackson]

In your opinion what is the correct definition of Entire Sanctification? I was taught in both the United Methodist Church and the Church of the Nazarene that Entire Sanctification is the process where a believer completely surrenders their lives to God and the Holy Spirit then purifies their hearts not making them perfect as in sinless but rather making them perfect in love and motivation. In a sense we are going on wards torwards perfection but will never achieve it until we pass away and go to Heaven.

I have found that in these latter years, holiness churches have watered down the message to the one you quoted. In earlier times, it was perfection in the literal sense of the word, perfectly holy without stain or sin at the point of purification as a second blessing. When we are told 'be ye perfect as your heavely father is perfect' it means just that instead of twisting it.

 

[bmjackson]

I would just like to say, that l agree with Phil that at the point of conversion, we are technically made pure and holy, most of us do not understand that it is through faith that we remain so and require to remake our dedication to be crucified with Christ which translates in experience as a second blessing.

 

[Rawtheran]

If I maybe permitted to jump in here...
Sanctified: atoned for, made holy, cleansed, set apart, consecrated.
Those are the definitions of sanctified in the dictionary.
Heb 10:10 says..."By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all."
Heb 10:14 says..."For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified."
Past tense, done, over, or in other words...not a process...unless you call baptism a process.
Baptism is where the atoning, cleansing blood of Christ is applied to our bodies, cleansing us from all sin.
It happens when we are "immersed" into Christ and into His death. (Rom 6:3-7)

How can someone reborn of God's seed not be "sanctified" from the start?

Interesting thoughts! Just to add, John Wesley believed that when one encountered the New Birth they would then experience God's sanctifying grace which you stated made them set apart by God. However, he also understood that the experience of sanctification could be gradual for some and instantaneous for others since everyone walks with God in different ways and God deals with every individual differently. The experience he described was known as Christian Perfection, Entire Sanctification, Perfect Love, or as it is known in Charismatic circles, the Baptism of the Holy Spirit. This was a second work of grace that a believer experienced after achieving salvation.