John Wesley and Holiness.

[Phil W]

Dear @bmjackson,
You need to go back and edit this, (post 55), so it will appear, and then I can answer it.

 

[CharismaticLady]

You need to go back and edit this, (post 55), so it will appear, and then I can answer it.

you should put his name in your post so he gets an alert.

 

[Phil W]

you should put his name in your post so he gets an alert.

OK, Thanks.

 

[CharismaticLady]

OK, Thanks.

Not just his name, but @ in front like this. See how it highlights? Sorry, I didn't put that detail in my instructions.

@bmjackson Please fix your quote marks in post #55, so @Phil W can respond.

 

[bmjackson]

Agreed.
The Phil' scripture referred to a former time, as does Paul's narrative in Romans 7.


Agreed.


Really?
Why then did he point out the "law of sin" in his members?
A law he notes he was freed from by the "law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus" in Romans 8:2?

Then why do the accounts of his memory if he was in the same state ie an unsaved Pharissee contradict? In one (Philippians), he says that he kept the law perfectly, in the other (Romans 7) he says that he knew he was not keeping the law, tried and failed?

They were both from times past, but one was when he was a Pharisee and the other was when he was a follower of Christ but found that he was unable to keep the new found law of Christ which includes the inward parts but failed. Then went on in Romans 8 to succeed when he dioscovered the secret (by gaith not working to obey).

The accounts have nothing to do with each other. They contradict.

Why then did he point out the "law of sin" in his members?

He was saying that there was something within him that would not submit though he knew that he should and this something was the reason why he found that internally he was not he Christian he knew he should be. Common experience of those who come to entire sanctification. read from the Holiness Movement.

A law he notes he was freed from by the "law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus" in Romans 8:2?

Yes but it was in theory only. It was not working out in reality before he was able to put that faith into action..

It is only your sense of timing that digresses from my POV.
What you label a "crisis of faith" wasn't after his conversion, but was his narrative of life under the Law.
A Law he was now freed from by the "law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus". (Rom 8:2)

No we are miles apart. You do not have a crisis of faith when you are outside of the kingdom. You do not have faith and you do not struggle to keep the law. You do what you want and think that you are as good as others.

 

[Phil W]

Then why do the accounts of his memory if he was in the same state ie an unsaved Pharissee contradict? In one (Philippians), he says that he kept the law perfectly, in the other (Romans 7) he says that he knew he was not keeping the law, tried and failed?

Good question.
These are the two seemingly contradicting verses...
"Concerning zeal, persecuting the church; touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless." (Phil 3:6)
And...
"For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not." (Rom 7:18)
If you prefer a different verse from Rom 7, let me know.
Please note that in the Phil. verse he qualifies his "righteousness" with the caveat of..."which is in the Law...".
Isn't the "Law's righteousness" inferior to the righteousness imputed to us by God in this new covenant?
Men were capable of achieving the "Law's kind of righteousness" by their yearly days of atonement. Blood sacrifices and such.
But that kind of righteousness pales in comparison to the righteousness of those reborn of God's incorruptible seed.
The Romans 7 "righteousness" was cited with the realization of the new kind of righteousness. A righteousness without caveats.
A new covenant's imputed and actual righteousness via the death of the flesh/old man and resurrected new man's true alignment with the mind of Christ.
A righteousness innate to those who have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts. A righteousness of those reborn with a divine nature.

The Philippians verse is an acknowledgement of Paul's righteous in regard to the kind of righteousness available to him when he was still a Jewish Law keeper.
OT righteousness, the best then available.

They were both from times past, but one was when he was a Pharisee and the other was when he was a follower of Christ but found that he was unable to keep the new found law of Christ which includes the inward parts but failed. Then went on in Romans 8 to succeed when he discovered the secret (by faith not working to obey).

As I think I have already mentioned, Rom 7 is a transition point between the Rom. 6's death of the old man and his walk in the flesh, and the Romans 8 walk in the Spirit.
In the Spirit we have been enabled to keep Law of Christ, because the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has freed us from the law of sin and death. (Rom 8:2)

The accounts have nothing to do with each other. They contradict.

I hope I have helped you see that the "contradiction" is that the perspective of the writer is different in the two separate verses above.
The Romans verses, a narration of failure under the Law from a perspective with the knowledge of the true righteousness afforded by faith, and the Phil's perspective of alignment with the kind of righteousness Paul had available to him while under the Law.

He was saying that there was something within him that would not submit though he knew that he should and this something was the reason why he found that internally he was not the Christian he knew he should be. Common experience of those who come to entire sanctification. read from the Holiness Movement.

Fact is, rebirth makes it possible to walk in the Spirit all the time.
No more serving the flesh or sin.
Sanctified indeed.
Holy indeed.
The "something within him" was the law of sin and death, which worked in him while he was still an OT Pharisee/Jew.
Romans 8:2 provides the cure, and the end of the transition between fleshly walks and Spiritual walks.
The cure?..."For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death."

Yes but it was in theory only. It was not working out in reality before he was able to put that faith into action..

I'm not sure what you are referencing here.

No we are miles apart. You do not have a crisis of faith when you are outside of the kingdom. You do not have faith and you do not struggle to keep the law. You do what you want and think that you are as good as others.

Why would those "in" the kingdom have a crisis of faith?
And what I want is the same as what Jesus wants.
He is "at the wheel". (Gal 2:20)

 

[bmjackson]

Good question.
These are the two seemingly contradicting verses...
"Concerning zeal, persecuting the church; touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless." (Phil 3:6)
And...
"For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not." (Rom 7:18)
If you prefer a different verse from Rom 7, let me know.
Please note that in the Phil. verse he qualifies his "righteousness" with the caveat of..."which is in the Law...".
Isn't the "Law's righteousness" inferior to the righteousness imputed to us by God in this new covenant?
Men were capable of achieving the "Law's kind of righteousness" by their yearly days of atonement. Blood sacrifices and such.
But that kind of righteousness pales in comparison to the righteousness of those reborn of God's incorruptible seed.
The Romans 7 "righteousness" was cited with the realization of the new kind of righteousness. A righteousness without caveats.
A new covenant's imputed and actual righteousness via the death of the flesh/old man and resurrected new man's true alignment with the mind of Christ.
A righteousness innate to those who have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts. A righteousness of those reborn with a divine nature.

The Philippians verse is an acknowledgement of Paul's righteous in regard to the kind of righteousness available to him when he was still a Jewish Law keeper.
OT righteousness, the best then available.

We have to remember that Paul was an apostle to the preGentile believer not the preJew, and as such he does not use the Mosaic law in his arguments as they would be meaningless. The law he is referring to is the New Covenant law. The righteousness of God is imparted and not only imputed to those in Christ.

As I think I have already mentioned, Rom 7 is a transition point between the Rom. 6's death of the old man and his walk in the flesh, and the Romans 8 walk in the Spirit.
In the Spirit we have been enabled to keep Law of Christ, because the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has freed us from the law of sin and death. (Rom 8:2)


I hope I have helped you see that the "contradiction" is that the perspective of the writer is different in the two separate verses above.
The Romans verses, a narration of failure under the Law from a perspective with the knowledge of the true righteousness afforded by faith, and the Phil's perspective of alignment with the kind of righteousness Paul had available to him while under the Law.


Fact is, rebirth makes it possible to walk in the Spirit all the time.
No more serving the flesh or sin.
Sanctified indeed.
Holy indeed.
The "something within him" was the law of sin and death, which worked in him while he was still an OT Pharisee/Jew.

You cannot have it both ways: the law of sin and death is there in the unsaved, but there is another state, the one Paul describes in Romans 7 whereby the law of sin and death is in dispute with the Holy Spirit within and you do not get the HS in the unsaved. It is this conflict Paul is describing and the end result was Romans 8 whereby one can walk in the Spirit. In one who is unsaved, as Paul was as a Pharisee, there is not conflict - the person is wholly dead.
Romans 8:2 provides the cure, and the end of the transition between fleshly walks and Spiritual walks.
The cure?..."For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death."


I'm not sure what you are referencing here.

Why would those "in" the kingdom have a crisis of faith?
And what I want is the same as what Jesus wants.
He is "at the wheel". (Gal 2:20)

Then you have not yet arrived at the state whereby one is convicted of ones thought life not being under the control of the Holy Spirit. Is this your confession? Your thoughts are entirely pure?

 

[Phil W]

We have to remember that Paul was an apostle to the preGentile believer not the preJew,

Pre-Jew? Pre-Gentile?
Do yo have some better description of whoever you are referring to?

and as such he does not use the Mosaic law in his arguments as they would be meaningless. The law he is referring to is the New Covenant law. The righteousness of God is imparted and not only imputed to those in Christ.

If it was meaningless, why does Paul start Romans 7 with references to the Law? He uses marriage specifically to show the readers (whether they be Jew or Gentile) that they are under the Law till death.
Then Paul describes how we are freed from the law of marriage by death, and also dead to the Law by the body of Christ.

You cannot have it both ways: the law of sin and death is there in the unsaved, but there is another state, the one Paul describes in Romans 7 whereby the law of sin and death is in dispute with the Holy Spirit within and you do not get the HS in the unsaved.

That isn't what the scripture says.
Paul writes "For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.", in Rom 8:2.
You are interjecting you own thoughts, countering what is written.

It is this conflict Paul is describing and the end result was Romans 8 whereby one can walk in the Spirit. In one who is unsaved, as Paul was as a Pharisee, there is not conflict - the person is wholly dead.
Romans 8:2 provides the cure, and the end of the transition between fleshly walks and Spiritual walks.
The cure?..."For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death."

You have quoted back to me the same scrip' I wrote to you in a past post.
Where we differ is in the perspective from whence Paul is writing.
You say it is...I'm not really sure.
I say he is referencing a state prior to his conversion.
He is narrating his state of mind from when he was a Pharisee.
It is a narration of his past.

Then you have not yet arrived at the state whereby one is convicted of ones thought life not being under the control of the Holy Spirit. Is this your confession? Your thoughts are entirely pure?

Well there it is...You think 'saved' men can walk without the Spirit part of the time.
I know that to be untrue.
Dark or light.
Sin or God.
We can only serve one Master.
My thoughts ARE entirely pure.
Like Paul, I once screamed "Who. shall save me from this body of death?"
God answered my plea by allowing me to understand that Romans 6:3-6 provided the way.
Baptism into Christ and into His death...killing my old body of sin, burying it with Christ, and raising me with Christ to walk in newness of life.
I, like Paul, have been freed from the law of sin and death by the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus.

 

[bmjackson]

Pre-Jew? Pre-Gentile?
Do yo have some better description of whoever you are referring to?

I mean those who were previous Jews or Gentiles before becoming Christians. Paul was an apostle to the Gentiles.

If it was meaningless, why does Paul start Romans 7 with references to the Law? He uses marriage specifically to show the readers (whether they be Jew or Gentile) that they are under the Law till death.
Then Paul describes how we are freed from the law of marriage by death, and also dead to the Law by the body of Christ.

He begins Romans 7 to tell those who are trying to be Christians but serving through the flesh that they are slaves to the law unless they die to the flesh. It requires our consent to the crucifixion of the old man.

That isn't what the scripture says.
Paul writes "For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.", in Rom 8:2.
You are interjecting you own thoughts, countering what is written.

This 'battle' between the two laws does not occur in the person who has not come to Christ. All you are saying really is that Romans 7 has not been your experience so far.

You have quoted back to me the same scrip' I wrote to you in a past post.
Where we differ is in the perspective from whence Paul is writing.
You say it is...I'm not really sure.
I say he is referencing a state prior to his conversion.
He is narrating his state of mind from when he was a Pharisee.
It is a narration of his past.

Indeed it is his past but as I have said, it was not when he was a Pharisee. You still have failed to answer my question regarding where he says that he delights in the law in his inward man. A Jew does not do that, he serves outwardly.

He is instructing BRETHREN that is fellow believers whio have not come to the stage where they are enabled to walk in the Spirit and he goes on to explain his own crisis where he learned this. Why would he backtrack, in speaking to former Gentiles, what it meant to Jews?

23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.

He is showing that he knows their struggle in finding a battle between what one wants to do and is incapable. Between two laws, within. The Pharisee does not have this battle within. Nor any unsaved person.

He is speaking of a struggle of length leading to despair.

Well there it is...You think 'saved' men can walk without the Spirit part of the time.
I know that to be untrue.
Dark or light.
Sin or God.
We can only serve one Master.
My thoughts ARE entirely pure.
Like Paul, I once screamed "Who. shall save me from this body of death?"
God answered my plea by allowing me to understand that Romans 6:3-6 provided the way.
Baptism into Christ and into His death...killing my old body of sin, burying it with Christ, and raising me with Christ to walk in newness of life.
I, like Paul, have been freed from the law of sin and death by the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus.

No I do not think a saved man can walk without the Spirit. One is in Christ or not in Christ. Coming to Christ for salvation and repenting of ones past life is not saved. Saved from sin is saved. If you have experienced Romans 7 as you say, then I agree that you were in an unsaved state prior to it but not insaved as people understand. As Wesley said 'almost' a Christian.

 

[Dave-W]

I mean those who were previous Jews or Gentiles before becoming Christians. Paul was an apostle to the Gentiles.

Jews are still Jews and Gentiles are still Gentiles after conversion.

 

[bmjackson]

No they aren't they are Christians

 

[Phil W]

I mean those who were previous Jews or Gentiles before becoming Christians. Paul was an apostle to the Gentiles.

OK, Gotcha.
That would be...everyone.

He begins Romans 7 to tell those who are trying to be Christians but serving through the flesh that they are slaves to the law unless they die to the flesh. It requires our consent to the crucifixion of the old man.

How many Gentiles knew anything about the Mosaic Law?
Few if any.
Paul says plainly that he is addressing them "that know the Law", the Jews.
But this is beside the point.
Will you stipulate that Paul has already covered the "death of the flesh" in Romans 6?

This 'battle' between the two laws does not occur in the person who has not come to Christ. All you are saying really is that Romans 7 has not been your experience so far.

In a sense, it is exactly my experience.
I was raised Catholic, and trying to live a Godly life...according to their rules and doctrines.
But, like Paul, failing.
I too cried out to God to save me from this body of death, and like Paul was shown the way out.
I too was freed from the law of sin in my members by the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus.
I can now serve God with my mind instead of the now dead flesh.
Romans 7 is mine and Paul's remembrance from before the Romans 6 death of the flesh and Romans 8's walk in the Spirit.

Indeed it is his past but as I have said, it was not when he was a Pharisee. You still have failed to answer my question regarding where he says that he delights in the law in his inward man. A Jew does not do that, he serves outwardly.

That is the point.
He delighted in the Law, inwardly, but was unable to manifest that delight with the flesh...as a Pharisee-Jew.
That is until the flesh was crucified and buried at his immersion-baptism into Christ's death in Rom 6:3-6.

He is instructing BRETHREN, that is fellow believers, who have not come to the stage where they are enabled to walk in the Spirit and he goes on to explain his own crisis where he learned this. Why would he backtrack, in speaking to former Gentiles, what it meant to Jews?

We only differ on the "instructing brethren" part.
I say he is narrating his past, lamenting his past failures from before he was able to kill the flesh (Rom 6) and walk in the Spirit (Rom 8).
Perhaps this is instruction, but it is by his own past, preconversion, experiences.

23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
He is showing that he knows their struggle in finding a battle between what one wants to do and is incapable. Between two laws, within. The Pharisee does not have this battle within. Nor any unsaved person.

He may "know their struggle", but he is using his own past struggle to demonstrate his prior angst...and Romans 8 goes on with the story's eventual freedoms from the flesh.

No I do not think a saved man can walk without the Spirit. One is in Christ or not in Christ.

On this we see eye to eye.
So isn't it obvious that Paul's narrative of failures while still in the flesh speaks of a pre-saved condition?

Coming to Christ for salvation and repenting of ones past life is not saved. Saved from sin is saved. If you have experienced Romans 7 as you say, then I agree that you were in an unsaved state prior to it but not unsaved as people understand. As Wesley said 'almost' a Christian.

So was Paul's perspective while narrating his past.
Unsaved, walking in the flesh.
A remembrance of the time before Rom 6's death of the flesh, and Rom 8's walk in the Spirit.

Thanks for hanging in there with me on this crucial verse.
The posers use it constantly to try and prove that nobody can live without sin, saying "Look at Paul's sinful life."
They can't see it is a remembrance of a pre-conversion time in Paul's life.

 

[bmjackson]

So isn't it obvious that Paul's narrative of failures while still in the flesh speaks of a pre-saved condition?

No because here is what he said of his Pharisee state "Concerning zeal, persecuting the church; touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless." (Phil 3:6)

He claimed that he was able to keep the law not that he failed. His conscience did not accuse him. Nor did he delight in the law in his inward man. He was entirely unaware of the inner witness of the Holy Spirit being entirely outside of the kingdom as a Jew.

Romans 6 states the legal state of the saved one, Romans 7 describes how Paul although knowing his legal position, found it was not working for him. Romans 8 describes how the problem was resolved and he was able to walk in the Spirit, by trusting that Christ had delivered him from the law of sin and death.

Your interpretation of Romans 7 is the one that was widely held in ther church since the start. In opposition, the interpretation that I speak of was in existence but only amongst the few - the few that really walked in holiness because after their initial coming to Christ found that they had not known just how deep the flesh ruled them. It took a crisis for them to see this.

It is at his point that a man is truly entirely sanctified and can lead others who struggle into the blessing, and this is known as revival. There have been no true revivals of your teaching. It is Arminianism and does not bring life to the church because it just discounts those who oppose as Calvinists as unsaved. All of ther great revivalists like Finney taught the 'second blessing'.

 

[Dave-W]

No they aren't they are Christians

Jewish Christians and Gentile Christians.

 

[bmjackson]

Just Christians.

 

[bekkilyn]

Just Christians.

Who also happen to be Jews or Gentiles.

 

[bmjackson]

I just think of myself as a Christian, not a British Christian.

 

[bekkilyn]

I just think of myself as a Christian, not a British Christian.

So you stopped being British the moment you started thinking of yourself as Christian?

 

[bmjackson]

Yes. My country is heaven.

 

[bekkilyn]

Yes. My country is heaven.

Interesting, how do you manage to get your mail? When you moved your address to heaven and officially renounced all claims to British citizenship, did God send a chariot down like he did with Ezekiel?