• Welcome to Christian Forums
  1. Welcome to Christian Forums, a forum to discuss Christianity in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

John the Baptist and Elijah

Discussion in 'Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum' started by Quasar92, Aug 13, 2017 at 10:26 AM.

  1. Quasar92

    Quasar92 Well-Known Member Supporter

    +423
    Christian
    Single
    To claim that Elijah is John the Baptist is to teach reincarnation. The premise is that a spirit in a former body comes back to be born in another body. At the very least, it is transmigration. The Bible has never taught this.

    In Matthew 11:13, Jesus states: “For all the prophets and the Law prophesied until John.” (Jesus calls him “John” not “Elijah.” Elijah is included with 'all the prophets' who came before John. In verse 14, Jesus says “and if you are willing to receive it, he is Elijah who is to come.” John wore a garment of camel's hair and a leather belt and preached in the wilderness. This was the same attire that Elijah wore (2 Kings 1:8), bringing attention to the Jews of the similarity of John's mission to that of Elijah's. Prophecy has many patterns and sometime dual or more fulfillments.

    Malachi had predicted that before the Messiah's appearing, Elijah would come as a forerunner (Mal. 4:5-in relation to the day of the Lord). If the people had been willing to receive Jesus as the Messiah, then John would have filled the role of Elijah. Jesus then tells them to heed His words. If John fulfills Elijah's coming then Jesus is the Messiah.

    Jesus pointed to John the Baptist as a type of fulfillment of Elijah's coming but he was not a reincarnation.

    This is proven in John 1:20 when the Jews sent out the priests and Levites to investigate John's ministry. They ask him if he is the Christ. He states emphatically “No!” They ask him again if he is Elijah, John answers “I am not.” This is not a temporary memory loss for John that Jesus has to correct later. In verse 25, John the Baptist is asked, ‘Why do you baptize if you are not the Christ nor Elijah nor the prophet?’ In verses 25-27 John points to the Messiah who is coming after him. He states that it is he who is the forerunner of Malachi 3:1. In Luke 1:76, we see that John's father, Zecharias, is filled with the Holy spirit and says that his child will be called the prophet of the highest and will “go before the face of the Lord and prepare His ways again.' This relates John's ministry to Mal. 3:1, 4:5, and Luke 1:17. John labored in the same Spirit and power of the former prophet by calling people to repentance and he was preparing them for the salvation that Christ would later bring.

    Both are Elijah and John the Baptist are forerunners. Elijah was promised to come for the second coming not the first, therefore he is not John the Baptist. Mal.3:1 promised an unnamed forerunner Mal.3:1: “Behold, I will send My messenger, and he shall prepare the way before Me: and the Lord, whom you seek, shall suddenly come to His temple, even the messenger of the covenant, whom you delight in: behold, he shall come, saith the LORD of hosts.” Malachi speaks of two messengers one that will prepare the way for the Lord, this is none other than John the Baptizer who is foretold in Isa.40:3-4 as “The voice crying out in the wilderness: prepare the way of the Lord; make straight in the desert a highway for our God.”

    In Mal 4:5-6 he is named “ Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD.[/font] We are told the prophet Elijah will come before the great and terrible day of the Lord (the tribulation). In Luke 4:18 when Jesus stood up in the temple and quoted Isa.61:1-2 he stopped at proclaiming the acceptable year of the lord and did not read of the day of vengeance of our God. This is reserved for the tribulation period in which Elijah will preach before the day of the Lord! Which makes it clear that John could not be Elijah for it was not the Day of Vengeance; it still is in the future. Again, if we go back to what the angel Gabriel said: he (John) would come “in the spirit and power” of Elijah (Luke 1:17), coming in this ministry does not make him literally Elijah the prophet.

    One of the strongest testimonies that John is not Elijah is on the Mount of Transfiguration (Matt. 17:3; Luke 9:30; Mark 9:4-5). Elijah and Moses appear and Jesus talks to Elijah. The disciples recognize him as Elijah in his original form, not as John the Baptist. One must either concede that they are 2 different people or that John the Baptist turned back into Elijah. Again, this would promote reincarnation or transmigration of a spirit going from one body to another. The Bible does not teach either. If one insists on this view then they must deal with II kings 2 where in vs. 9 Elisha asks for a double portion of Elijah’s spirit upon himself. He is promised this will be so if he sees his mentor taken to heaven. In vs. 11-12 he does see this event and Elijah's mantle falls on Elisha. In vs. 14 he struck the water and it divided just as it did before with Elijah. The Sons of the prophets see this and say, “The Spirit of Elijah rests on Elisha.” If Elijah’s spirit was upon Elisha then he was not taken to heaven! John had the same Spirit upon him that Elijah did. This did not change Elisha to be Elijah but gave him the same authority through the ministry of the Spirit. If one is going to use the Scripture that John the Baptizer literally came in the Spirit and power of Elijah then how did he rest on Elisha and become a double portion no less. Obviously verse 9 this means in like ministry, and function, to having authority. John came “in the spirit and power of Elijah,” the similarity being his fiery preaching and being in the wilderness (Luke 1:17; John 10:41). There are patterns that repeat themselves in the scriptures as a certain aspect is expressed in different people.

    Let’s now sum up this unbiblical view. In II Kings 2:1, we find Elijah taken bodily into Heaven. For one to enter Heaven they must be transformed (1 Cor. 15:50-54), changed to an immortal body, a body which is no longer subject to death since corruptible flesh cannot enter into Heaven. If Elijah came back as John the Baptist, and was killed, this would be impossible according to Scripture. For one who has had a changed body to be equipped for Heaven, does not turn back to mortality. If we look at it more carefully in II Kings 2:11 Elijah never experienced physical death so for him to come back in another body means he reincarnated not only in Spirit but in body too, and the Bible never teaches either one of these. Elijah did not die, so the Scripture is not talking about his reincarnation as John the Baptist (2 Kings 2:1,11).The Bible teaches resurrection, a totally different concept.

    It's obvious that when Jesus spoke in Matt. 11:13-14, concerning John being “Elijah who is to come.” He was not speaking in a solid, literal sense. Jesus was metaphorically comparing 2 different things that also shared some similarities and functions. The Jewish scriptures always taught resurrection, not reincarnation. Each person is given 1 body to live in and will be reunited with that same body in the resurrection. When one takes the whole body of scripture instead of isolating verses, we find the consistent teaching that refutes any concept of Elijah becoming John the Baptist and then becoming Elijah again.


    Source: http://www.letusreason.org/NAM2.htm


    Quasar92
     
  2. BABerean2

    BABerean2 Newbie Supporter

    +1,202
    Christian
    Married

    Mat 17:9  Now as they came down from the mountain, Jesus commanded them, saying, "Tell the vision to no one until the Son of Man is risen from the dead." 
    Mat 17:10
      And His disciples asked Him, saying, "Why then do the scribes say that Elijah must come first?" 
    Mat 17:11  Jesus answered and said to them, "Indeed, Elijah is coming first and will restore all things. 
    Mat 17:12  But I say to you that Elijah has come already, and they did not know him but did to him whatever they wished. Likewise the Son of Man is also about to suffer at their hands." 
    Mat 17:13  Then the disciples understood that He spoke to them of John the Baptist. 


    All false systems of interpretation are not exposed by the scripture quoted by its proponents, but rather by the scripture they must ignore to make it work.

    .
     
  3. Quasar92

    Quasar92 Well-Known Member Supporter

    +423
    Christian
    Single

    It is clear you did not read the OP, as you are saying Jesus is teaching reincarnation. That is not an accurate assessment of it at all.


    Quasar92
     
  4. BABerean2

    BABerean2 Newbie Supporter

    +1,202
    Christian
    Married
    Since I did not say anything particular about the passage and the passage contains the words of Christ, it would be Jesus who does not agree with your OP.


    Mat 17:9  Now as they came down from the mountain, Jesus commanded them, saying, "Tell the vision to no one until the Son of Man is risen from the dead." 
    Mat 17:10
      And His disciples asked Him, saying, "Why then do the scribes say that Elijah must come first?" 
    Mat 17:11  Jesus answered and said to them, "Indeed, Elijah is coming first and will restore all things. 
    Mat 17:12  But I say to you that Elijah has come already, and they did not know him but did to him whatever they wished. Likewise the Son of Man is also about to suffer at their hands." 
    Mat 17:13  Then the disciples understood that He spoke to them of John the Baptist. 

    .
     
  5. imsaneru

    imsaneru New Member

    16
    +3
    Australia
    Christian
    Single
    John the Baptist would have known why he was waring a camel fur outfit with a leather belt around his waist , and no he wasn't trying to take off Fred Flintstone , he was to appear visually as Elijah who was a hairy man with a leather belt around his waist. One doesn't dress like this while every one else is waring white bed linen unless you know why your doing it , and yet when he was asked if he was Elijah he answered NO. And yet Jesus said he was , and John got out of bed every morning and dressed himself to look like Elijah and yet when asked he says NO.

    Could it be that John simply knew that he was not the reincarnated Elijah. But that he was simply John the Baptist who is to appear visually and in the spirit and power of Elijah.
     
    • Like Like x 2
    • Agree Agree x 1
    • List
  6. Quasar92

    Quasar92 Well-Known Member Supporter

    +423
    Christian
    Single

    Was John the Baptist really Elijah?
    1. Yes, he was Elijah (Matthew 11:13-14) - "For all the prophets and the Law prophesied until John. 14"And if you care to accept it, he himself is Elijah, who was to come."
    2. No, he was not Elijah (John 1:19-21) - "And this is the witness of John, when the Jews sent to him priests and Levites from Jerusalem to ask him, "Who are you?" 20 And he confessed, and did not deny, and he confessed, "I am not the Christ." 21 And they asked him, "What then? Are you Elijah?" And he said, "I am not." "Are you the Prophet?" And he answered, "No."
    The teaching of reincarnation is against the Old Testament. Therefore, Jesus was not teaching that John the Baptist was Elijah reincarnated. So, what did Jesus mean when He said that John the Baptist was Elijah? We see in Malachi 4:5 this prophecy, "Behold, I am going to send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and terrible day of the Lord." Jesus is referring to the prophecy concerning Elijah. We see that the coming of Elijah was in the spirit of Elijah, which is so stated in Luke 1:13-17. The context is when Zecharias, John's father-to-be, was performing his priestly duties in the temple (Luke 1:8ff). An angel of the Lord appeared to Zacharias and said,

    "Do not be afraid, Zacharias, for your petition has been heard, and your wife Elizabeth will bear you a son, and you will give him the name John. 14"And you will have joy and gladness, and many will rejoice at his birth. 15"For he will be great in the sight of the Lord, and he will drink no wine or liquor; and he will be filled with the Holy Spirit, while yet in his mother’s womb. 16"And he will turn back many of the sons of Israel to the Lord their God. 17"And it is he who will go as a forerunner before Him in the spirit and power of Elijah, to turn the hearts of the fathers back to the children, and the disobedient to the attitude of the righteous; so as to make ready a people prepared for the Lord," (Luke 1:13-17).

    So, we see that John the Baptist was in the spirit of Elijah but not actually Elijah reincarnated.
    There is, however, a little more information that might prove interesting. Elijah wore, most probably, a camel's hair girdle. "And they answered him, "He was a hairy man with a leather girdle bound about his loins." And he said, "It is Elijah the Tishbite," (2 Kings 1:8). According to the Treasury of Scripture Knowledge, in reference to 2 Kings 1:8, Elijah . . .

    "he wore a rough garment, either made of camels’ hair, as that of John Baptist, or of a skin, dressed with the hair on. Sir J. Chardin informs us, in a MS. note on this place, cited by Mr. Harmer, that the eastern dervishes and fakeers are clothed just as Elijah was, with a hairy garment, girded with a leathern girdle."

    Concerning John the Baptist, it says in Matthew 3:4, "Now John himself had a garment of camel’s hair, and a leather belt about his waist; and his food was locusts and wild honey." It may be that Zecharias, who had access to the temple and things in the temple, may have acquired Elijah's camel hair garment and given it to John the Baptist to wear. This is speculation, but it is an interesting possibility.

    By Matt Slick


    Quasar92
     
  7. BABerean2

    BABerean2 Newbie Supporter

    +1,202
    Christian
    Married
    Why do you keep leaving out the following scripture when discussing this issue?


    Mat 17:9  Now as they came down from the mountain, Jesus commanded them, saying, "Tell the vision to no one until the Son of Man is risen from the dead." 
    Mat 17:10
      And His disciples asked Him, saying, "Why then do the scribes say that Elijah must come first?" 
    Mat 17:11  Jesus answered and said to them, "Indeed, Elijah is coming first and will restore all things. 
    Mat 17:12  But I say to you that Elijah has come already, and they did not know him but did to him whatever they wished. Likewise the Son of Man is also about to suffer at their hands." 
    Mat 17:13  Then the disciples understood that He spoke to them of John the Baptist. 


    .
     
  8. Quasar92

    Quasar92 Well-Known Member Supporter

    +423
    Christian
    Single

    When are you going to stop beating a dead horse? The very Scriptures you allude to to field your argument, exposes your false views. Jesus transfiguration, was a preview of His coming into His kingdom, as we all pray for in Mt.5:110. Who are the two witnesses that appear with Him during that event? Moses and Elijah - not John the Baptist.


    Quasar92
     
  9. BABerean2

    BABerean2 Newbie Supporter

    +1,202
    Christian
    Married
    That horse is modern Dispensational Theology, brought to America by John Nelson Darby, about the time of the Civil War. Since that time it spread like a virus through the evangelical Church.

    The horse was never alive in the first place.

    You are the one who keeps attempting to bring the horse to life.

    It is a Trojan horse, which has brought into the Church a doctrine at least partially based on race, instead of Grace.

    1Ti 1:4  nor give heed to fables and endless genealogies, which cause disputes rather than godly edification which is in faith. 

    .
     
  10. Quasar92

    Quasar92 Well-Known Member Supporter

    +423
    Christian
    Single


    YAWN! Same old, same old tired opinionated attempt to remake what the Scriptures say. Post #8 refutes you.


    Quasar92
     
    Last edited: Aug 14, 2017 at 9:48 PM
  11. Quasar92

    Quasar92 Well-Known Member Supporter

    +423
    Christian
    Single

    Your claim that John the Baptist was Elijah, is teaching reincarnation! See the following:

    "Was John the Baptist really Elijah reincarnated?"

    Matthew 11:7–14 declares, “Jesus began to speak to the crowd about John: ‘What did you go out into the desert to see? A reed swayed by the wind? If not, what did you go out to see? A man dressed in fine clothes? No, those who wear fine clothes are in kings’ palaces. Then what did you go out to see? A prophet? Yes, I tell you, and more than a prophet. This is the one about whom it is written: “I will send my messenger ahead of you, who will prepare your way before you.” I tell you the truth: Among those born of women there has not risen anyone greater than John the Baptist; yet he who is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he. From the days of John the Baptist until now, the kingdom of heaven has been forcefully advancing, and forceful men lay hold of it. For all the Prophets and the Law prophesied until John. And if you are willing to accept it, he is the Elijah who was to come.’” Here Jesus quotes from Malachi 3:1, where the messenger appears to be a prophetic figure who is going to appear. According to Malachi 4:5, this messenger is “the prophet Elijah,” whom Jesus identifies as John the Baptist. Does this mean that John the Baptist was Elijah reincarnated? Not at all.

    First, Jesus’ original hearers (and Matthew’s original readers) would never have assumed Jesus’ words to refer to reincarnation. Besides, Elijah did not die; he was taken to heaven in a whirlwind as he rode in a chariot of fire (2 Kings 2:11). Arguing for a reincarnation (or a resurrection) of Elijah misses that point. If anything, the prophecy of the Elijah “to come” would have been viewed as Elijah’s physical return to earth from heaven.

    Second, the Bible is quite clear that John the Baptist is called “Elijah” because he came in the “spirit and power of Elijah” (Luke 1:17), not because he was Elijah in a literal sense. John the Baptist is the New Testament forerunner who points the way to the arrival of the Lord, just as Elijah filled that role in the Old Testament (and might again in the future—see Revelation 11).

    Third, Elijah himself appears with Moses at Jesus’ transfiguration after John the Baptist’s death. This would not have happened if Elijah had changed his identity into that of John (Matthew 17:11–12).

    Fourth, Mark 6:14–16 and 8:28 show that both the people and Herod distinguished between John the Baptist and Elijah.

    Finally, proof that this John the Baptist was not Elijah reincarnated comes from John himself. In the first chapter of John the Apostle’s gospel, John the Baptist identifies himself as the messenger of Isaiah 40:3, not as the Elijah of Malachi 3:1. John the Baptist even goes so far as to specifically deny that he was Elijah (John 1:19–23).

    John did for Jesus what Elijah was to have done for the coming of the Lord, but he was not Elijah reincarnated. Jesus identified John the Baptist as Elijah, while John the Baptist rejected that identification. How do we reconcile these two teachings? There is a key phrase in Jesus’ identification of John the Baptist that must not be overlooked. He says, “If you are willing to accept it, he is Elijah.” In other words, John the Baptist’s identification as Elijah was not predicated upon his being the actual Elijah, but upon people’s response to his role. To those who were willing to believe in Jesus, John the Baptist functioned as Elijah, for they believed in Jesus as Lord. To the religious leaders who rejected Jesus, John the Baptist did not perform this function.


    Quasar92
     
  12. Marilyn C

    Marilyn C Newbie Supporter

    557
    +83
    Christian
    Married
    Hi imaneru,

    Only an aussie could say it like it was. Good on you.

    Marilyn.
     
  13. BABerean2

    BABerean2 Newbie Supporter

    +1,202
    Christian
    Married
    I am not claiming anything.
    I merely posted the scripture below, which you have attempted to ignore.



    Mat 17:9  Now as they came down from the mountain, Jesus commanded them, saying, "Tell the vision to no one until the Son of Man is risen from the dead." 
    Mat 17:10
      And His disciples asked Him, saying, "Why then do the scribes say that Elijah must come first?" 
    Mat 17:11  Jesus answered and said to them, "Indeed, Elijah is coming first and will restore all things. 
    Mat 17:12  But I say to you that Elijah has come already, and they did not know him but did to him whatever they wished. Likewise the Son of Man is also about to suffer at their hands." 
    Mat 17:13  Then the disciples understood that He spoke to them of John the Baptist. 

    .
     
Loading...