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John Calvin - Heresy and capital punishment of Church History

Discussion in 'Christian History' started by I'm_Sorry, Jul 31, 2017.

  1. hedrick

    hedrick Senior Veteran Supporter

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    It would if I were claiming that Calvin was right in his actions. But I did not.

    "It's unfair to blame him for what all Christians agreed was proper. You can certainly ask how some of that could have ever become established as Christian, but that's not a question for Calvin specifically."

    The OP was using Calvin's supposed evil to oppose his theology, "Why so many people buy into this individual beats me" That is the genetic fallacy.
     
  2. philadelphos

    philadelphos Sydney

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  3. hedrick

    hedrick Senior Veteran Supporter

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  4. Kate30

    Kate30 Member

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    Philadelphos you might enjoy Bruce Gore’s 2 part lecture on the life of John Calvin. Around 50 minutes a lecture there on U Tube if you would like to enquire more. Was it right to kill Servetus and others. The powers of that time thought so. Sometimes it’s kill or be killed. The God has killed billions you know. Was it right for him to do so. Absolutely. Sometimes when in doubt us mere mortals must choose by killing all too. But God does know what belongs to him. We all must also take that journey one day ourselves, how that comes about for each of us only God does know. It’s not a easy question to answer. You must take all the above into consideration. For it was a time where many customs and laws were much different to ours. For us today it would seem bizarre to kill someone because of their religious beliefs. But their times were much different to ours even If it still continues in some parts of our world today.
     
    Last edited: Jun 24, 2019
  5. philadelphos

    philadelphos Sydney

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  6. Tolworth John

    Tolworth John Well-Known Member

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    Yet Calvin did not kill servantees or anyone else.

    Who tried him? Who convicted him and who ordered his exceution?

    It was not Calvin.
    I find it strange that a man hired to be a preacher is condemned for what the town council did.
    Yes Calvin and just about every Christian in that time agreed that servantees deserved death for his believes, yes Calvin was a prominent witness against him.
    Get real Every protestant group tried to enforce seriousness on the population.
     
  7. myst33

    myst33 Well-Known Member

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    Is not this post too mild and reserved, Ivan Ivanovič?
     
  8. philadelphos

    philadelphos Sydney

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    Actually, that's a popular myth, to white-wash Calvin and save face for Calvinism. - Calvin was a hypocrite like those in the Church today, in the RCC or elsewhere.

    According to history, from writings by Calvin himself, eyewitnesses, and contemporaries, they all say Calvin killed. They say he was directly involved before, during, and after several executions, and violent acts. He absolutely did kill people. He even smiled and took pleasure in it.

    With Servetus, he had a motive to kill, and followed through to kill him when the opportunity arrived (Servetus was of course a troublemaker, but he was naive to underestimate Calvin). Even after the fact, Calvin boasted of killing Servetus to others, bragging unremorsefully of personally "ridding Geneva of his filth".

    For Calvin it was an obsession with 'heresy trials' and power to (physically) 'separate the wheat from the chaff', he believed it was divine right to reform the church, a 'pastor's' prerogative... It was also spirit of puritanism and self-righteous religious piety that went way too far.

    Calvin went against Scripture, against his own sense of right and wrong, and wilfully killed those who challenged his system of religion. He wilfully plotted the murder of Servetus and others, and the Council sided with him. - The day he received Servetus's package with scribbled notes on the margins of his precious Institutes (his life's work), he felt personally slighted and enraged. His anger became a personal grudge, and a vendetta.

    People blame 'the times'... 'the generation'... the theocracy and 'union of church and state'... the bad people of Geneva... or the 'threat of heresy'... but the fact is Calvin lost his mind. Everyone in Geneva had lost their mind.

    Local Genevans were usurped, over powered... There's accounts of them saying they preferred the religious freedom under the RCC to live how they wanted, without police force, without being monitored and forced to attend service, forced to listen to every sermon (unable to complain), having your home and family assessed, by threat of jail, tortured, or execution...

    Calvin's contemporaries
    (people alive in his generation, as close by as Zurich) were fully aware of his violent streak and spoke against him on this. They wrote to Calvin but he would not listen.

    Luther called him "abominable" and Tyndale branded him an "Antichrist's disciple"... Castellio wrote to him saying "It is unchristian to use arms against those who have been expelled from the church, and to deny them rights common to all mankind."

    • "There were children publicly scourged, and hung, for having called their mother she-devil and thief. When the child had not attained the age of reason, they hung him by the arm-pits, to manifest that he deserved death." (Picot, History of Geneva, in 8 vols., t. II, p. 264)(p. 355)History and Theology: Execution of A Child and Adulterers in Calvin's Geneva
    • "In 1563, a girl named Genon Bougy, who had insulted her mother by calling her “japa,” was condemned to three days in prison on bread and water, and she had to make a public apology after worship services." Jean Picot (Professeur dʼhistoire dans la faculte des lettres de lʼAcademie de cette ville) Histoire de Geneve, Tome Second (Published in Geneva, i.e., A Geneve, Chez Manget et Cherbuliez, Impreimeurs-Libr. 1811) p. 264
    • "A girl was beheaded for striking her parents, to vindicate the dignity of the fifth commandment." Philip Schaff [Professor of Church History in the Union Theological Seminary, New York] Modern Christianity: The Swiss Reformation = Vol. VIII of History of the Christian Church (Grand Rapids, Michigan: Wm. B. Eerdmanns, third edition revised, 1910) [FU - BR 145 .S6 1967 v.8 ] HISTORY OF THE CHRISTIAN CHURCH*

    See details in Stanford Rives book, Did Calvin Murder Servetus ? (p. 312-318)
    Rives, Stanford. 2008. Did Calvin Murder Servetus ?(p. 312).jpg
    Rives, Stanford. 2008. Did Calvin Murder Servetus ?(p. 313).jpg
    Rives, Stanford. 2008. Did Calvin Murder Servetus ?(p. 314).jpg
    Rives, Stanford. 2008. Did Calvin Murder Servetus ?(p. 315).jpg
    Rives, Stanford. 2008. Did Calvin Murder Servetus ?(p. 316).jpg
    Rives, Stanford. 2008. Did Calvin Murder Servetus ?(p. 317).jpg
    Rives, Stanford. 2008. Did Calvin Murder Servetus ?(p. 318).jpg

    This is supporting evidence that nullifies any 'genetic fallacy', as some will falsely accuse.

    History paints a sad and gruesome picture of Calvin and Calvin's Geneva, certainly comparable to the Spanish Inquisition, Islamic Caliphate, Nazi Germany, Mao's China, Stalin's Russia, etc. Calvin is not a person one would want to befriend, not someone one would want as their pastor, or governor... These were dark times that we must learn to never repeat.
     
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