JOHN 3:16 - JESUS CHRIST ON HIS ATONEMENT

[Butch5]

Ahh, but you said this:

......there is not a single Greek lexicon that I know of, that says that “kosmos” here has a meaning that does not mean the “whole world” (that is, “everyone without exception). ​

My "evidence" does show you this (if nothing else), you were wrong Now you know, there is at least one lexicon (the most famous of them, in fact) that clearly states that κόσμος in John 3:16, does not mean, "everyone w/o exception".

In the end, we both believe this verse speaks of a "limited atonement" (no matter what meaning we finally decide to assign to κόσμος), unless you believe that "whosoever believes" AND "whosoever does not believe" will both be saved. Surely not However, if that is what you mean, that ALL w/o exception will be saved, then we need to move this discussion to the CT board, because discussions promoting a Universal Atonement are not allowed on this board.

If you want to discuss the "L" in TULIP, I would be happy to do so, but please pick another verse(s), because the use of John 3:16 for that purpose is pointless.

In Christ,
David

Question: which is not allowed on this board, universal salvation or universal atonement? From what you said in this post it seems to me that you see these terms as interchangeable, I don't.

 

[jimmyjimmy]

Question: which is not allowed on this board, universal salvation or universal atonement?

Question: What's the difference?

 

[Butch5]

Question: What's the difference?

Soteria means deliverance. Katallage means exchange.

 

[jimmyjimmy]

Soteria means deliverance. Katallage means exchange.

Are those for whom Christ atoned, lost?

 

[Butch5]

Are those for whom Christ atoned, lost?

Deliverance and exchange mean different things.

 

[jimmyjimmy]

Deliverance and exchange mean different things.

Are those for whom Christ atoned, lost?

 

[Butch5]

Are those for whom Christ atoned, lost?

What does this have to do with the different meanings?

 

[St_Worm2]

Hi Butch, I believe JJ means that those who have their sins atoned for (propitiated/expiated/satisfied) by Christ ARE saved. Therefore, there is no difference in a universal atonement and a universal salvation because they basically mean the same thing. If you describe someone as a person for whom Christ has died (and whose sins have been atoned for as a result), then you are also describing someone who is saved

 

[Butch5]

Hi Butch, I believe JJ means that those who have their sins atoned for (propitiated/expiated/satisfied) by Christ ARE saved. Therefore, there is no difference in a universal atonement and a universal salvation because they basically mean the same thing. If you describe someone as a person for whom Christ has died (and whose sins have been atoned for as a result), then you are also describing someone who is saved

Hi David,

However, the two words don't mean the same thing. Therefore they can't used interchangeably. We find in Scripture people who have been redeemed that don't end up saved. Thus the two words mean different things.

 

[St_Worm2]

Hi David,

However, the two words don't mean the same thing. Therefore they can't used interchangeably. We find in Scripture people who have been redeemed that don't end up saved. Thus the two words mean different things.

Yes, they are two different words, but they end up pointing to the same thing (obviously we disagree about that ).

Redeemed in the Bible who are not saved Do you have an example or two perhaps?

Thanks!

--David

 

[Butch5]

Yes, they are two different words, but they end up pointing to the same thing (obviously we disagree about that ).

Redeemed in the Bible who are not saved Do you have an example or two perhaps?

Thanks!

--David

They are two different words. One means to deliver and one means to exchange. I don't see how they are interchangeable.

I do. Peter for example writes of those who were bought by the Lord and yet rejected Him and go to destruction.

2 Peter 2:1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction. (2 Pet. 2:1 KJV)

 

[jimmyjimmy]

Hi Butch, I believe JJ means that those who have their sins atoned for (propitiated/expiated/satisfied) by Christ ARE saved. Therefore, there is no difference in a universal atonement and a universal salvation because they basically mean the same thing. If you describe someone as a person for whom Christ has died (and whose sins have been atoned for as a result), then you are also describing someone who is saved

Thanks, David. That is indeed what I meant.

 

[FredVB]

John 6
37 All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out.
Your leaving out the critical part of the doctrine of Christ in what your saying by putting it all on the man and nothing on God, whereas Christ places it all depending on God.

The reason anyone might 'want salvation from God' is purely they have been drawn and taught by the Holy Spirit. Them that He gives to Christ He draws to Christ. Why not acknowledge God in your knowledge and give Him all the glory?

Why say I don't acknowledge Yahweh and give Yahweh the glory, it does not take from that to show, from the scriptures, as I do, that God is not whimsical, creating some with no opportunity for responding to God in repentance to suffer damnation ultimately, but calls for all to come to this, so there is some opportunity for all, and believers are to promote this. God's Spirit certainly works in this, yet there is always response needed from us. This is not "putting it all on the man". I don't rob from the teaching of responsibility that is needed.

 

[FredVB]

Peter for example writes of those who were bought by the Lord and yet rejected Him and go to destruction.

2 Peter 2:1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction. (2 Pet. 2:1 KJV)

In this case the Lord paid for them, they did not submit so as to be the Lord's, so they were not effectively redeemed, but are such that had knowledge with which they might well have been, but traded that with rebellious error, so they were never saved, and were then from this not going to come to needed repentance for coming to such redemption, anymore. Such is the hardening for which there is warning.

 

[FredVB]

We find in Scripture people who have been redeemed that don't end up saved. Thus the two words mean different things.

Those who don't end up saved were not redeemed. Though the words mean different things that is relevant to how they are applied in places, but they are not fully different in every statement. Those who still have the knowledge of the gospel of salvation through Christ, tasting the sense of the goodness of that, and don't really repent to come to Yahweh God to live in his will, so that there is change in their lives from that, but will walk away from that, are those who would not ultimately repent. Such were not ever saved, and they weren't redeemed, though it was available for them. The promises in many new testament passages are for assurance to true believers, who are in Christ, that they have everlasting life. But without repentance one does not have that, with the repentance of any that is with essential faith, Yahweh secures them, and they don't lose that. Those who turned away show evidence that they didn't come to that change.

An application for us from this would be to not presume our salvation, but to be assured with our faith by which we would live differently. When there is doubt of salvation, seek living by that faith, trusting in Christ with obedience, and there is assurance in that. If there is sin realized, acknowledge that and repent from it seeking ways in Christ to avoid returning to that.

 

[Dan the deacon]

I keep reading of these 12 men being saved at the time of this meal. As Christ had not yet died or been ressurected, how does that work?

 

[bling]

I keep reading of these 12 men being saved at the time of this meal. As Christ had not yet died or been ressurected, how does that work?

I have not heard of that and would not agree with it.

 

[Bobber]

It says Jesus came because our Father so loved "the world". He could have said "us" if He meant only us who are saved.

Also, we have 1 Timothy 4:10 >

"For to this end we also labor and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of those who believe." (1 Timothy 4:10)

So, our Apostle Paul says God is "the Savior of all". So, for me "all" supports that Jesus came for the whole world. But there are ways that God does good to even those who do not believe. So, it is good for us to bless any and all people, in our prayer, and trust God to do any and all people whatsoever good He pleases

One can't get any more clearer than that.

 

[Bobber]

Sinners don't come to Christ unless God is at work within them.

And of course you reject the truth that God is at work through the preaching of the gospel and that God working through his servants in preaching the gospel gives the sinner a choice. You say if there wasn't a positive result God wasn't working. Nonsense!

So they were God's workmanship.

Yes they were. They gave God the go ahead by believing in the Son and God conforms such to the image of his Son. Doesn't in any way do away with the fact that God was WORKING with all others to get them to receive Christ. Illustration...a painter an knock on my door asking if he could paint my house. It took work for him to walk to my door to ask the question. His workmanship would be the finished product of the house painted if i allowed him to do it, but still he was working with those who refused.

And God was not working in the first group who refuse to come to Christ.

Sorry Downey....Just demonstrated above that's nonsense.

 

[Doulos 7]

I'm of the opinion that if you plucked the petal, "L" from the TULIP it wouldn't matter.

Every tenant of tulip is a false teaching