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JOHN 3:16 - JESUS CHRIST ON HIS ATONEMENT

Discussion in 'Salvation (Soteriology)' started by Christodoulos, Jul 13, 2017.

  1. sdowney717

    sdowney717 Newbie

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    Hebrews 13:20-21 New International Version (NIV)

    Benediction and Final Greetings
    20 Now may the God of peace, who through the blood of the eternal covenant brought back from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great Shepherd of the sheep, 21 equip you with everything good for doing his will, and may he work in us what is pleasing to him, through Jesus Christ, to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.

    The sheep, His sheep, My sheep are all of 'the sheep.' You can not be of the sheep unless you believe and only those who are the sheep will follow Christ.
    As much as some might want all people to be the sheep, scripture says
    'that great Shepherd of the sheep' , not 'the great Shepherd of His sheep. '

    There is such a thing as the goats who do not believe, and the sheep who are the believers. If your a sheep then you belong in the flock of Christ.
     
  2. sdowney717

    sdowney717 Newbie

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    John 10
    2 The one who enters by the gate is the shepherd of the sheep. 3 The gatekeeper opens the gate for him, and the sheep listen to his voice.

    John 10:7
    Therefore Jesus said again, “Very truly I tell you, I am the gate for the sheep.

    John 10:8
    All who have come before me are thieves and robbers, but the sheep have not listened to them.

    9 I am the gate; whoever enters through me will be saved. They will come in and go out, and find pasture.

    11 “I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep.

    WHO??? finds pasture, it is only THE SHEEP. Christ is the gate for the sheep, the sheep listen to Christ and follow Christ.
     
    Last edited: Jul 14, 2017
  3. Christodoulos

    Christodoulos Member

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    Please don't make stupid comments about me making Jesus a liar!

    Yes, Judas was indeed one of the disciples that Jesus Himself called, and there is no doubt that he too like the other 11, was a "sheep". Just because your "theology" does not allow for a believer to be lost, does not mean that it is what the Bible teaches. Why would Jesus Himself say, "he that continues to the end will be saved" (Matthew 24:13), if He did not believe that they that had begun to follow Him, could never stop following Him? These words would be pointless!

    Neither Matthew, Mark or Luke say anything that shows that Judas did not take part of the Lord's Supper, a fact made clear by Luke. John does not record the Lord's Supper as chapter 13 is the Passover (verse1). I rest my case on the Word of God!
     
  4. sdowney717

    sdowney717 Newbie

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    So you believe a Christian can lose eternal life?
    Judas was definitely not one of the sheep of Christ.
     
  5. Christodoulos

    Christodoulos Member

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    I admit that I have a problem. In my investigation of Judas in connection of the Lord's Supper, it is evident that he did part-take of it like the 11, and Jesus told the 12, "this is my blood shed for you". Reading the 4 Gospel accounts does not contradict or disprove what Luke says. If I have got this wrong, then show me from Scripture. Here we have a case where a person who did not make it to heaven, for whom Jesus died, as His own words say this. Put aside "theology" and deal with what the Bible says, and there is no doubt that Luke's account is correct, and not contradicted by the events as recorded by the other Gospels.

    The problem is that I do believe that a truly born-again Christian, is saved forever. At least this is my understanding of what I have studied from the Bible. However, I could well be wrong. The case of Judas casts a huge doubt in my mind if my personal belief is what the Bible actually teaches. I therefore have to be open to the fact that I could be wrong on this doctrine. The Bible has to be the basis for my "theology", and I must be open to correction from it, when I am shown to be in error. I will need time to further investigate this, and will post my findings on this forum. There is no point in statements like "Judas was not a sheep of Jesus", which is based on our "theology". We still have to deal with what the Bible actually teaches, and open to the possibility that we can be wrong. Otherwise, what is the point?
     
  6. sdowney717

    sdowney717 Newbie

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    Jesus told us the sheep follow Him and He gives them eternal life and they will never perish.
    But Judas perished. Therefore Judas was not one of the sheep. Otherwise you are calling Christ a liar.
    Jesus tells us He chose the 12, yet one was a DEVIL.

    Judas was chosen and his end was foretold by prophecy to fulfil the word of the Lord which He spoke concerning that man.

    There are no more Judas Iscariots today. Judas was the 'son of perdition'. All the others, 100% of them that God gives to Christ are kept for salvation by faith through the power of God.
    John 17
    9 “I pray for them. I do not pray for the world but for those whom You have given Me, for they are Yours. 10 And all Mine are Yours, and Yours are Mine, and I am glorified in them.

    11 Now I am no longer in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to You. Holy Father, keep through Your name those whom You have given Me, that they may be one as We are.

    12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in Your name. Those whom You gave Me I have kept; and none of them is lost except the son of perdition, that the Scripture might be fulfilled.



    ALl God foreknows, God predestines, and all God predestines, God calls, and all God calls, God justifies, and all God justifies, God glorifies. Salvation is of the Lord.
    Romans 8:30
     
  7. DeaconDean

    DeaconDean γέγονα χαλκὸς, κύμβαλον ἀλαλάζον

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    I would almost agree with you except for the fact that we too go from what scriptures says.

    And in each and every Gospel account of Judas Iscariot, not a single one of them uses any description in a good light of him.

    betrayer, a devil, a thief, the son of perdition (destruction), lifted his heel against me.

    It is beyond me how Jesus can say this about a person, and they still go on to argue on account of Judas.

    That is not "our theology", that is from scripture!

    Even the OT prophesies do not paint a favorable picture of Judas.

    Sorry.

    God Bless

    Till all are one.
     
  8. yeshuaslavejeff

    yeshuaslavejeff simple truth, martyr, disciple of Yahshua

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    QUOTE="sdowney717, post: 71506436, member: 329446"]John 10:8
    All who have come before me are thieves and robbers, but the sheep have not listened to them.

    9 I am the gate; whoever enters through me will be saved. They will come in and go out, and find pasture.

    11 “I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep.

    WHO??? finds pasture, it is only THE SHEEP. Christ is the gate for the sheep, the sheep listen to Christ and follow Christ.[/QUOTE

    Amein!!!!!! HALLELUYAH!!!!!!!!!!

    BEFORE, before, BEFORE JESUS sat at the Right Hand , it is written HE FINISHED the work of ATONEMENT for our sins and guilt and shame.

    BEFORE, BEFORE, before JESUS sat at the Right Hand, HE ACCOMPISHED EVERYTHING.

    This is written in HIS WORD, and men deny it. ("thieves and robbers") stealing salvation, preventing little ones who are seeking God's Kingdom, destroying billions of souls......

    JESUS' ATONEMENT !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    Perfect
    Complete
    It is [already] Finished
    Accomplished Fully**
    according to all of God's Word (SCRIPTURE)
    and plainly written
    for all who love God,
    who are called according to His Purpose.

    Follow Jesus. He took all of our guilt and shame and sin ... It Is Finished. Nothing left undone. Nothing can be done after we die - it is final by then; it is too late.

    **
    AMP
    The Son is the radiance and only expression of the glory of [our awesome] God [reflecting God’s Shekinah glory, the Light-being, the brilliant light of the divine], and the exact representation and perfect imprint of His [Father’s] essence, and upholding and maintaining and propelling all things [the entire physical and spiritual universe] by His powerful word [carrying the universe along to its predetermined goal]. When He [Himself and no other] had [by offering Himself on the cross as a sacrifice for sin] accomplished purification from sins and established our freedom from guilt, He sat down [revealing His completed work] at the right hand of the Majesty on high [revealing His Divine authority],

    -----------
    Study Bible
    The Supremacy of the Son
    …2But in these last days He has spoken to us by His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, and through whom He made the universe. 3 The Son is the radiance of God’s glory and the exact representation of His nature, upholding all things by His powerful word.

    !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! After He had provided purification for sins,<<<<<<<<<

    He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high. 4So He became as far superior to the angels as the name He has inherited is excellent beyond theirs.…
    Berean Study Bible · Download
     
    Last edited: Jul 18, 2017
  9. FredVB

    FredVB Regular Member

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    Yahweh is not willing that any just perish, but that they should come to repentance. Those who want salvation from God and respond with repenting Yahweh will not cast away, there will always be opportunity with enough for what is needed of knowledge revealed. We have responsibility to make more of such opportunity with being prepared with witness of the vital truth in our lives, in Christ.
     
  10. FredVB

    FredVB Regular Member

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    In Judas' case, Yahweh was not willing that he just perish, but he should come to repentance. He was called, but did not come to such repentance. Judas was given opportunity, wonderful opportunity with going together with Jesus in his ministry, with real revelation from God, through Jesus, he yet did not understand such salvation, his life never did change in needed ways.
     
  11. sdowney717

    sdowney717 Newbie

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    John 6
    37 All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out.
    Your leaving out the critical part of the doctrine of Christ in what your saying by putting it all on the man and nothing on God, whereas Christ places it all depending on God.

    The reason anyone might 'want salvation from God' is purely they have been drawn and taught by the Holy Spirit. Them that He gives to Christ He draws to Christ. Why not acknowledge God in your knowledge and give Him all the glory?
     
  12. sdowney717

    sdowney717 Newbie

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    Because of Him you are in Christ Jesus, that no flesh should glory in His presence. If you chose yourself in Christ Jesus, then you would have occasion for boasting in your flesh, and that God will not permit to occur. He chose you to be in Christ Jesus, and that from the foundation of the world.

    1 Corinthians 1:26-30New King James Version (NKJV)

    Glory Only in the Lord
    26 For you see your calling, brethren, that not many wise according to the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called.

    27 But God has chosen the foolish things of the world to put to shame the wise, and God has chosen the weak things of the world to put to shame the things which are mighty; 28 and the base things of the world and the things which are despised God has chosen, and the things which are not, to bring to nothing the things that are, 29 that no flesh should glory in His presence.

    30 But of Him you are in Christ Jesus, who became for us wisdom from God—and righteousness and sanctification and redemption—
     
  13. shakewell

    shakewell Active Member

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    It couldn't mean #1. That wouldn't be the world, it would only be part of the world. The people whose names weren't in the book of life and were cast into the lake of fire were part of the world. #1 only includes the other part.
     
  14. St_Worm2

    St_Worm2 Simul Justus et Peccator Supporter

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    Hi Shakewell, Biblically, κόσμος most often refers to Jews AND the Nations (Jews AND Greeks/Gentiles), both in the Gospels as well the Epistles.

    "Greeks" = "The Nations" = "Gentiles". They are different terms that mean the same thing. So when you add the Jewish nation to the rest of the Nations of the world, you end up with ALL the nations in the world :)
     
    Last edited: Jul 21, 2017
  15. shakewell

    shakewell Active Member

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    1 nation is comprised of every individual within that nation. Exclude 1 individual of that nation from that nation and you've altered the identity of that nation; it's no longer the same nation. God cannot love a nation without loving every individual within that nation.

    If God so loved all the nations of the world, then He so loved every individual of the world.
     
  16. FredVB

    FredVB Regular Member

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    Not at all. You are reading that into the position. It is Yahweh's initiation, and our response. As Yahweh commands all who are everywhere to repent, Acts of the Apostles 17:30, there is our responsibility to do so, even when it is Yahweh making it possible. Your position otherwise ignores a significant part of what is said in scriptures.

    If Yahweh commands for something to happen that will only happen from Yahweh, and it doesn't happen, does it not suggest impotence? That is never the case!

    Yes, Yahweh does this. Why does your Calvinist view presume that in my knowledge I don't acknowledge it? You know about when you assume.

    None of this is disputed in what I said, but this is not excluding our response which is needed.
     
  17. sdowney717

    sdowney717 Newbie

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    God commands all men to repent and believe the gospel, but the only ones who do respond in belief and faith are those God regenerates. You must be born again first to enter the kingdom of God.

    What do you think Paul tells us about the unsaved in 2 Corinthians 4?

    3 But even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing, 4 whose minds the god of this age has blinded, who do not believe, lest the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine on them.

    IN Christ the veil is removed, but to get in Christ, you must believe, and Satan has blinded the unbelievers minds lest the light of the gospel shine on them, so that they beleive in Christ. They are locked down as slaves of Sin and have Satan as their spiritual father actually, and can not believe.

    How will they believe, will you force them by means of logic?
    Why do you suppose some men believe in Christ?
    Scripture has those answers, but you likely dont like them.
     
    Last edited: Jul 26, 2017
  18. EmSw

    EmSw White Horse Rider

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    From regeneration, that is only mentioned twice, you get all this? I wonder what the Reformed really believe - is regeneration the same as born again, or is it not? I hear conflicting viewpoints. Marvin doesn't think it is the same (is that true, Marvin?) and it seems you think it is the same. What is the truth?
     
  19. shakewell

    shakewell Active Member

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    Yes, God loved every human being. He gave His only begotten Son for every human being. Every human being can and may believe in Him during their short lifetime and have everlasting life. That is the clear message of John 3:16, as well as the entirety of Scripture.

    John 3:14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: 15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

    Numbers 21:7 Therefore the people came to Moses, and said, We have sinned, for we have spoken against the LORD, and against thee; pray unto the LORD, that he take away the serpents from us. And Moses prayed for the people. 8 And the LORD said unto Moses, Make thee a fiery serpent, and set it upon a pole: and it shall come to pass, that every one that is bitten, when he looketh upon it, shall live. 9 And Moses made a serpent of brass, and put it upon a pole, and it came to pass, that if a serpent had bitten any man, when he beheld the serpent of brass, he lived.
     
  20. FredVB

    FredVB Regular Member

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    Those who reject God are hardened, in this they are blinded, spiritually (usually). But as you say, which was shown in the text referred to, "God commands all men to repent and believe the gospel, but the only ones who do respond in belief and faith are those God regenerates," if it is all God's doing, God is giving a command that cannot accomplish, if it is only God's doing at all, it would mean some impotence, otherwise the command would accomplish it in all cases. What I said does not mean that, because there is the response needed to the command, those not responding with repentance and faith in the needed way become hardened, each time they are given opportunity, as with hearing the gospel again, it will be harder as they have rejected it before, and become blinder in that.

    You don't have to accuse me or others of not believing the scriptures, these things I have said are shown in the scriptures.
     
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