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JOHN 3:16 - JESUS CHRIST ON HIS ATONEMENT

Discussion in 'Salvation (Soteriology)' started by Christodoulos, Jul 13, 2017.

  1. Christodoulos

    Christodoulos Member

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    God is at work in sinners as in convicting them of their sins and showing them their need for Jesus as their Saviour. Not as in making them believe. The passage above shows that man must possess a "free will", "believe", "believe not", is only possible with this.
     
  2. Christodoulos

    Christodoulos Member

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    It is only when a sinner accepts what Jesus has done for them, that His Atoning Work is applied to them. He has done His work on the cross, the sinner must first "repent" and "accept" this to be forgiven and saved.
     
  3. Christodoulos

    Christodoulos Member

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    do you believe that a sinner needs to repent before they are forgiven and saved?
     
  4. Christodoulos

    Christodoulos Member

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    Interesting in Luke's account of the Lord's Supper, that he says that Judas was still present with them when Jesus said to them, that the bread and wine represented His body and blood, which was shed for THEIR (including Judas) sins?
     
  5. jimmyjimmy

    jimmyjimmy Pardoned Rebel Supporter

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    Me too.
     
  6. Christodoulos

    Christodoulos Member

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    then how comes you have a picture of some guy's work for those who cannot afford seminary, instead of the Holy Bible? This is like a form of brainwashing! care to comment of my latest post?
     
  7. jimmyjimmy

    jimmyjimmy Pardoned Rebel Supporter

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    It's "humor". Try it sometime.

    "This" is just a word.

    Not really.


    Q: Why did the Calvinist marry a girl named Grace.

    A: He found her irresistible.
     
  8. sdowney717

    sdowney717 Newbie

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    Only if God believes for us.
    The reason you believe is God was at work in you. Do you really deny that?

    Philippians 2:12-14 Amplified Bible, Classic Edition (AMPC)
    12 Therefore, my dear ones, as you have always obeyed [my suggestions], so now, not only [with the enthusiasm you would show] in my presence but much more because I am absent, work out (cultivate, carry out to the goal, and fully complete) your own salvation with reverence and awe and trembling (self-distrust, with serious caution, tenderness of conscience, watchfulness against temptation, timidly shrinking from whatever might offend God and discredit the name of Christ).

    13 [Not in your own strength] for it is God Who is all the while effectually at work in you [energizing and creating in you the power and desire], both to will and to work for His good pleasure and satisfaction and delight.
     
  9. sdowney717

    sdowney717 Newbie

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    Colossians 1 says all things are of God, includes your salvation, which as Ephesians 2 says is not of yourselves it is God's gift. Even your faith is God's gift to you. And you are a new creation in Christ Jesus.
    You are Christ's workmanship. Fact is if you believe you were elect before you believed, and because you were elect, God performed His work in you, transforming, changing your spirit from a heart of stone (dead) to a heart of flesh(alive), by making you regenerated, born again, born of God so that He could teach you and drag (draw you) to Himself, and then after you believed, He sealed you in His Holy Spirit.

    1 Peter 1 New International Version (NIV)

    1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ,

    To God’s elect, exiles scattered throughout the provinces of Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia and Bithynia, 2 who have been chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through the sanctifying work of the Spirit, to be obedient to Jesus Christ and sprinkled with his blood:

    Grace and peace be yours in abundance.



    Colossians 1
    12 Giving thanks to the Father, Who has qualified and made us fit to share the [l]portion which is the inheritance of the saints (God’s holy people) in the Light.

    13 [The Father] has delivered and [m]drawn us to Himself out of the control and the dominion of darkness and has transferred us into the kingdom of the Son [n]of His love,
    14 In Whom we have our redemption through His blood, [which means] the forgiveness of our sins.
    15 [Now] He is the [o]exact likeness of the unseen God [the visible representation of the invisible]; He is the Firstborn of all creation.
    16 For it was in Him that all things were created, in heaven and on earth, things seen and things unseen, whether thrones, dominions, rulers, or authorities; all things were created and exist through Him [by His service, intervention] and in and for Him.

    17 And He Himself existed before all things, and in Him all things consist (cohere, are held together).

    1 Peter 1:20-22New King James Version (NKJV)
    20 He indeed was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you 21 who through Him believe in God, who raised Him from the dead and gave Him glory, so that your faith and hope are in God.

    22 Since you have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit in sincere love of the brethren, love one another fervently with a pure heart,
     
  10. sdowney717

    sdowney717 Newbie

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    Judas was not there for the cup of His blood.
    He left after Christ handed to Judas the bread.
    the bread first, the cup (of blood) after the bread, but you should be able to see Judas left IMMEDIATELY after the bread, so no cup (blood) for Judas. Judas was also not present for John 17 teaching. Judas left in John 13, so Judas had no part in much of Christ's teaching .

    In fact he may not have even eaten the bread, but discarded the same when he immediately departed from Christ. Judas most certainly did not receive the cup from Christ, which signified the blood of the New Covenant. Judas never believed in Christ, Judas was a devil. John 6:70, and devils do not partake of the blood of Christ.

    John 13
    26 Jesus answered, “It is he to whom I shall give a piece of bread when I have dipped it.” And having dipped the bread, He gave it to Judas Iscariot, the son of Simon. 27 Now after the piece of bread, Satan entered him. Then Jesus said to him, “What you do, do quickly.” 28 But no one at the table knew for what reason He said this to him. 29 For some thought, because Judas had the money box, that Jesus had said to him, “Buy those things we need for the feast,” or that he should give something to the poor.

    30 Having received the piece of bread, he then went out immediately. And it was night.


    Luke 22:19-21New King James Version (NKJV)
    19 And He took bread, gave thanks and broke it, and gave it to them, saying, “This is My body which is given for you; do this in remembrance of Me.”

    20 Likewise He also took the cup after supper, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in My blood, which is shed for you. 21 But behold, the hand of My betrayer is with Me on the table.

    Jesus tells us Judas was there when He was speaking those words, but Judas left and did not receive the cup.

    'he then went out immediately.'
    Satan had entered into Judas, Satan drove Judas, took control, Satan would not want to take the body and blood of Christ. Judas was directly possessed by Satan. So after Judas receives the piece of bread from Christ into Judas hand, Satan possessed Judas, and I really have my doubts Satan would eat that bread or allow Judas to do that.
     
    Last edited: Jul 14, 2017
  11. Christodoulos

    Christodoulos Member

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    Note what Luke says: "But behold, the hand of My betrayer is with Me on the table"

    See what Matthew Henry, a Calvinist says on this:

    "By placing this after the institution of the Lord's supper, though in Matthew and Mark it is placed before it, it seems plain that Judas did receive the Lord's supper, did eat of that bread and drink of that cup"
     
  12. jimmyjimmy

    jimmyjimmy Pardoned Rebel Supporter

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    If he did, he did it to his own condemnation.
     
  13. sdowney717

    sdowney717 Newbie

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    Scripture can not be wrong, Judas left immediately after some bread, SOP bread, I guess you don't believe the scripture in John 13. Lots pf people simply choose to believe or not believe what scripture says, your free to go and imagine your own ideas.

    Did Judas Take Communion Before Betraying Jesus?

    To summarize, we can place Judas at the Passover, and at the table, and at his dipping of the sop. But we should note that sop-dipping is not part of the Lord's Supper/Communion! But we cannot place Judas as eating or drinking the communion elements. It was after the meal, and the foot washing, that Jesus instituted the Lord's Supper; Judas was no longer there by then. The remainder of the apostles listened to some more preaching from Jesus and then sung a hymn and went to the Mount of Olives.
     
    Last edited: Jul 14, 2017
  14. sdowney717

    sdowney717 Newbie

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    Matthew 26
    23 Jesus replied, “The one who has dipped his hand into the bowl with me will betray me. 24 The Son of Man will go just as it is written about him. But woe to that man who betrays the Son of Man! It would be better for him if he had not been born.”

    25 Then Judas, the one who would betray him, said, “Surely you don’t mean me, Rabbi?”

    Jesus answered, “You have said so.”


    No mention of Judas leaving, but in John 13, Judas leaves right after this SOP bread and before the communion body and blood . John 13 fleshes out, gives the missing details of what happened at that time. John 13 does not even mention the cup and the body communion event, yet we know it happened.. And Judas was GONE.

    26 While they were eating, Jesus took bread, and when he had given thanks, he broke it and gave it to his disciples, saying, “Take and eat; this is my body.”


    John 13, Judas leaves after the SOP bread.
    26 Jesus answered, “It is the one to whom I will give this piece of bread when I have dipped it in the dish.” Then, dipping the piece of bread, he gave it to Judas, the son of Simon Iscariot. 27 As soon as Judas took the (SOP) bread, Satan entered into him.

    So Jesus told him, “What you are about to do, do quickly.” 28 But no one at the meal understood why Jesus said this to him. 29 Since Judas had charge of the money, some thought Jesus was telling him to buy what was needed for the festival, or to give something to the poor. 30 As soon as Judas had taken the bread, he went out. And it was night.


    Christ after handing Judas the SOP bread, not communion bread, then commands Satan possessing Judas this
    So Jesus told him, “What you are about to do, do quickly.”
    And Judas leaves and is gone on his mission to betray Christ and have Christ arrested. Judas is commanded by Christ to LEAVE, to do it NOW, and Judas does...
     
    Last edited: Jul 14, 2017
  15. Christodoulos

    Christodoulos Member

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    Do you think that Luke, who was a first-class historian, and guided by the Holy Spirit in what he wrote, wrong in his account? Even Matthew Henry a Calvinist says that Judas part-took of the Lord's Supper.
    Also note the words of the Greek scholar, Dr A T Robertson, "That betrayeth (tou paradidontos). Present active participle, actually engaged in doing it. The hand of Judas was resting on the table at the moment. It should be noted that Luke narrates the institution of the Lord's Supper before the exposure of Judas as the traitor while Mark and Matthew reverse this order."
     
  16. sdowney717

    sdowney717 Newbie

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    Your taking sides? One apostle versus the other 2 ot them?

    John puts in the details of what actually happened regarding Judas.
    How about Jesus tells Satan (Judas) to go and do quickly what he must do betray Christ (you know it was a preplanned event).
    And as Christ was speaking these words in Luke 22, Judas got up and left the table. Judas rejects Christs body and blood for him. Since Christ calls Judas a devil, makes sense to me. the cup of the Lord and the cup of the demons don't mix at all...
    Luke 22
    20 In the same way, after the supper he took the cup, saying, “This cup is the new covenant 21 But the hand of him who is going to betray me is with mine on the table.
     
    Last edited: Jul 14, 2017
  17. sdowney717

    sdowney717 Newbie

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    1 Corinthians 10:20-22New International Version (NIV)

    20 No, but the sacrifices of pagans are offered to demons, not to God, and I do not want you to be participants with demons. 21 You cannot drink the cup of the Lord and the cup of demons too; you cannot have a part in both the Lord’s table and the table of demons. 22 Are we trying to arouse the Lord’s jealousy? Are we stronger than he?

    Judas was a devil and Christ would not have allowed Judas to have a part in the Lord's table or cup.
    Christ tells him to depart and do what he must do.
    Then afterwards Christ and the remaining 11 have the communion.
     
  18. Christodoulos

    Christodoulos Member

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    Not taking sides, simply stating facts as they are. Another Calvinst, John Gill, accept the facts are they are, others have done"!

    "with me on the table; and is an aggravation of his sin, that one that sat with him at his table, ate bread with him, and dipped his morsel in the same dish, should be the betrayer of him, according to the prophecy in Ps 41:9 as well as describes and points at the person that should do this action, even one of his disciples; for which disciples, he had just now said, his body is given, and his blood is shed. The phrase, "with me", is left out in the Syriac and Persic versions. From Luke's account it appears most clearly, that Judas was not only at the passover, but at the Lord's supper, since this was said when both were over.
     
  19. Christodoulos

    Christodoulos Member

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    The whole point of this is that for Judas to have been present at the initiation of the Lord's Supper, and have the words, "this is my blood shed for you", also addressed to him, who we know went to hell, shows beyond any doubt, that Jesus must have also died for Judas!
     
  20. sdowney717

    sdowney717 Newbie

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    You believe that Judas was one of Christ's sheep?
    John 10, Jesus tells us who He dies for and why.
    Jesus dies for the sheep.
    I think you are adding onto the story...
    Judas however PERISHED, so don't call Christ a liar, because the sheep do not perish.

    11 “I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep. 12 The hired hand is not the shepherd and does not own the sheep. So when he sees the wolf coming, he abandons the sheep and runs away. Then the wolf attacks the flock and scatters it. 13 The man runs away because he is a hired hand and cares nothing for the sheep.

    14 “I am the good shepherd; I know my sheep and my sheep know me— 15 just as the Father knows me and I know the Father—and I lay down my life for the sheep.

    25 Jesus answered, “I did tell you, but you do not believe. The works I do in my Father’s name testify about me, 26 but you do not believe because you are not my sheep. 27 My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. 28 I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all[c]; no one can snatch them out of my Father’s hand. 30 I and the Father are one.”
     
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