John 3:16 and limited attonment.

Innerfire89

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So usually when a debate arises about Calvinism and/or limited attonment someone is sure to quote John 3:16 to refute Calvinisim. John 3:16 and limited attonment do not contradict each other, here's why.

John 3:16 For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son. That whosoever beliveth on him shall not perish but eternal life.
God loves the world doesn't mean Christ died for every person in the world, because world doesn't always mean every person within it. World or kosmos in the Greek has more than one meaning, one of them is the believers only. Another is all nations of the world. If we use the word " world" as meaning everyone and apply it to other verses we see it has multible meanings. Examples- 1 John 5:19 And we know that we are of God, and the whole WORLD lieth in wickedness.
Rev. 13:3 and I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and all the WORLD wondered after the beast.
Scripture tells us who Christ died for.
John 10:15 As the Father knoweth me I know the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.
Eph. 5:25 Husbands love your wives even as Christ also loved the church and gave himself for it.
Limited attonment isn't cruel and doesn't mean God is unloving but shows us how the work of Christ is unfailing and the maximum effect always.

Stay strong in Christ and have a blessed day.
 
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SkyWriting

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So usually when a debate arises about Calvinism and/or limited atonement someone is sure to quote John 3:16 to refute Calvinism. John 3:16 and limited atonement do not contradict each other, here's why.

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SBC

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So usually when a debate arises about Calvinism and/or limited attonment someone is sure to quote John 3:16 to refute Calvinisim. John 3:16 and limited attonment do not contradict each other, here's why.

John 3:16 For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son. That whosoever beliveth on him shall not perish but eternal life.
God loves the world doesn't mean Christ died for every person in the world, because world doesn't always mean every person within it. World or kosmos in the Greek has more than one meaning, one of them is the believers only. Another is all nations of the world. If we use the word " world" as meaning everyone and apply it to other verses we see it has multible meanings. Examples- 1 John 5:19 And we know that we are of God, and the whole WORLD lieth in wickedness.
Rev. 13:3 and I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and all the WORLD wondered after the beast.
Scripture tells us who Christ died for.
John 10:15 As the Father knoweth me I know the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.
Eph. 5:25 Husbands love your wives even as Christ also loved the church and gave himself for it.
Limited attonment isn't cruel and doesn't mean God is unloving but shows us how the work of Christ is unfailing and the maximum effect always.

Stay strong in Christ and have a blessed day.

John 3:16 For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son. That whosoever beliveth on him shall not perish but eternal life.

Gods Love revealed.
Gods giving revealed.
Gods "caveat" revealed.

God loves the world doesn't mean Christ died for every person in the world, because world doesn't always mean every person within it.

Gods IS Love ~ that does not change.
Gods Love for his creations IS constant ~ that does not change
Whether or not God "LIKES" a man ~ is totally dependent upon the man
Scripture NEVER teaches God "LIKES" all of His creations.
Scripture DOES teach God DOES NOT LIKE "corruption".

Scripture teaches God created mankind in His (Gods) LIKEness.
Gods LIKENESS is "GOOD".
Scripture teaches all of Gods creations were created "VERY GOOD".
Scripture teaches "NOT ALL" of Gods creations "remained" VERY GOOD.
Scripture teaches God DOES NOT LIKE what He created that "CHANGED" from being;
....VERY GOOD.

Scripture teaches WHY.
Scripture teaches His creations that changed from being VERY GOOD, have become "CORRUPT".
"CORRUPT" is that creation that became/becomes "NOT GOOD".
A "CORRUPT" thing, can not "PRODUCE" a GOOD THING.
Mankind became corrupt, and produces corrupt things from his corrupt seed.

God presented mankind a WAY, for mankind WHO is "NOT GOOD", to become CHANGED again, and BECOME "Acceptable" unto God.

A man WHO does so, become "Acceptable" unto God. IS a man WHO submits unto God, in the WAY God has provided for the man; and God "CHANGES" the man, according to what God has taught He is willing to "accept" the man.

Mans "submission" of following Gods "WAY"; and Gods "acceptance" of that man;
Is called a man being "reconciled" back to God.

That whosoever beliveth on him

God loves the world doesn't mean Christ died for every person in the world, because world doesn't always mean every person within it.

God is Love.
God Loves all of His creations.
God Sent Christ Jesus into the world, IN a flesh pure holy body, prepared of God.
Mankind of the earth who SAW Christ Jesus, ONLY KNEW Him as JESUS.
God Sent that pure holy body, to be given unto DEATH, "FOR" the life of the world.
The "life of the world" INCLUDES ALL of MANKIND.
(Some of the) Mankind of the earth who SAW Jesus, ALSO came to BELIEVE, that
....that man Jesus, was ALSO the Christ Messiah they had been waiting for.
The Christ Messiah; their Lord God; fulfilling His promise to come among them; to save them from being corrupt; and save them from the world's corruption; and save them UNTO being restored and reconciled back unto their God's LIKENESS.

They came into being the: whosoever beliveth on him

God loves the world doesn't mean Christ died for every person in the world, because world doesn't always mean every person within it.

EVERY PERSON within the world, is Precisely WHO Jesus died FOR.

Scripture teaches God is LOVE, LOVES His creations and LOVES Himself.
Gods LOVES His Word.
God LOVES His Word He has given to mankind since the beginning of mankind.
God LOVES His Word He called Jesus.
God LOVES His Word He prepared a body for and sent into the world.
God LOVES His Word that mankind Heard, Saw, & Believed/Believes.
God LOVES His Word that GAVE His prepared body (of flesh and blood) FOR: the life of
....the world.

God absolutely GAVE that BODY to His Word, to DIE "for the life of the WHOLE world".

John.6
  1. [51] I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.
Heb.10
  1. [5] Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:
THE FACTS:

He who came down from heaven, IS Jesus.
He who prepared His flesh is God.
He who gave His flesh, IS Jesus.
Who Jesus gave His flesh FOR, IS the life of the world.
He WHO is the life of this world, IS mankind.

THE CAVEAT:

Mankind MUST accept what has been given "FOR" him, before the man himself can become reconciled BACK unto God.

John 6
[54] Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.


The Life of the WHOLE world, (who has become corrupt; called mankind), ALL have an opportunity to LOVE Gods Word. When ANY ONE of mankind LOVES Gods Word; God forgives their "corruption"; and reconciles that man unto Him (God).

The "action" or "lack of action" by a man himself, has nothing to do with WHO Jesus came to give His body for.

Jesus came to give His flesh body FOR ALL of mankind.
Jesus' blood spilled, was for the forgiveness of ALL of mankind.

Salvation IS for ALL of mankind.
However, WE KNOW, not all of mankind WILL reach out and take their Salvation....
And IF a man does NOT reach out and take his salvation, then he loses his Salvation.

That simple.

God Bless.
SBC
 
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Innerfire89

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God grants what we believe Philippians 1:29.
2 Tim. 2:25.
God works belief in us John 6:28-29.
The "whosoever" are the predestined/elect. Acts 13:48
Thess. 2:13
Only those who are drawn by God believe Christ. John 6:44.
God loves the world, but some don't have attonment but we do because of what God has done for us.
 
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Anto9us

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World or kosmos in the Greek has more than one meaning, one of them is the believers only.

Got a chapter and verse for that? Where KOSMOS means "believers only"?
 
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DamianWarS

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So usually when a debate arises about Calvinism and/or limited attonment someone is sure to quote John 3:16 to refute Calvinisim. John 3:16 and limited attonment do not contradict each other, here's why.

John 3:16 For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son. That whosoever beliveth on him shall not perish but eternal life.
God loves the world doesn't mean Christ died for every person in the world, because world doesn't always mean every person within it. World or kosmos in the Greek has more than one meaning, one of them is the believers only. Another is all nations of the world. If we use the word " world" as meaning everyone and apply it to other verses we see it has multible meanings. Examples- 1 John 5:19 And we know that we are of God, and the whole WORLD lieth in wickedness.
Rev. 13:3 and I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and all the WORLD wondered after the beast.
Scripture tells us who Christ died for.
John 10:15 As the Father knoweth me I know the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.
Eph. 5:25 Husbands love your wives even as Christ also loved the church and gave himself for it.
Limited attonment isn't cruel and doesn't mean God is unloving but shows us how the work of Christ is unfailing and the maximum effect always.

Stay strong in Christ and have a blessed day.

John uses kosmos often, in fact it is used in John more than any other book (57 times) Where it may be the word kosmos can be used contextually and may even refer to the redeemed, in John's gospel it doesn't. To suggest it does in John 3:16 seems desperate and presents the text as overly cryptic and inconsistent and I would suggest it is irresponsible.
 
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Innerfire89

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John uses kosmos often, in fact it is used in John more than any other book (57 times) Where it may be the word kosmos can be used contextually and may even refer to the redeemed, in John's gospel it doesn't. To suggest it does in John 3:16 seems desperate and presents the text as overly cryptic and inconsistent and I would suggest it is irresponsible.
In light of the rest of Scripture, how should world or kosmos be read in John 3:16?
 
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ViaCrucis

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For the Lutheran the rejection of limited atonement is simple: Scripture consistently and repeatedly tells us that Christ came for the ungodly, to save sinners, that it is the will of God to save all, etc. Which is why Calvinism errors by saying Christ died only for the elect, and by teaching--contrary to Scripture--that God's predestination extends over the elect and the unelect equally. For predestination is the soothing comfort for the believer, for the elect only.

As we confess,

"The eternal election of God, however, vel praedestinatio (or predestination), that is, God's ordination to salvation, does not extend at once over the godly and the wicked, but only over the children of God, who were elected and ordained to eternal life before the foundation of the world was laid, as Paul says, Eph. 1:4. 5: He hath chosen us in Him, having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ." - Solid Declaration of the Formula of Concord XI.5

And further from the same,

"Therefore, if we wish to consider our eternal election to salvation with profit, we must in every way hold sturdily and firmly to this, that, as the preaching of repentance, so also the promise of the Gospel is universalis (universal), that is, it pertains to all men, Luke 24:47. For this reason Christ has commanded that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in His name among all nations. For God loved the world and gave His Son, John 3:16. Christ bore the sins of the world, John 1:29, gave His flesh for the life of the world, John 6:51; His blood is the propitiation for the sins of the whole world, 1 John 1:7; 2:2. Christ says: Come unto Me, all ye that labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest, Matt. 11:28. God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that He might have mercy upon all, Rom. 11:32. The Lord is not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance, 2 Pet. 3:9. The same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon Him, Rom. 10:12. The righteousness of God, which is by faith of Jesus Christ, unto all and upon all them that believe, Rom. 3:22. This is the will of Him that sent Me, that every one that seeth the Son and believeth on Him may have everlasting life, John 6:40. Likewise it is Christ's command that to all in common to whom repentance is preached this promise of the Gospel also should be offered Luke 24:47; Mark 16:15." - ibid. XI.28

It isn't on account of any one passage that alone establishes the error of limited atonement; it is instead the grand testimony of the whole of Scripture that Christ's work is universal, for the entire world of sinners.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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Innerfire89

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For the Lutheran the rejection of limited atonement is simple: Scripture consistently and repeatedly tells us that Christ came for the ungodly, to save sinners, that it is the will of God to save all, etc. Which is why Calvinism errors by saying Christ died only for the elect, and by teaching--contrary to Scripture--that God's predestination extends over the elect and the unelect equally. For predestination is the soothing comfort for the believer, for the elect only.
-
Without election no one turns to Christ for salvation, since they are hostile to God. Only those that are drawn by The Father come to Christ John 6:44. The non elect can hear the word but that's have no root.
Salvation is a finished work for an intended people and not just a possibilty. Now if Christ died as a substitute for every person that would mean that every person has salvation or Christ work on the cross can fail in what it's meant to do. Calvinisim looks at how we are absolutely helpless in our own to come to Christ, even our faith is a gift to us from God. Phil. 1:29. 2nd Tim. 2:25. John 6:28-29.
 
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ViaCrucis

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Without election no one turns to Christ for salvation, since they are hostile to God.

Agreed.

Only those that are drawn by The Father come to Christ John 6:44.

Agreed.

The non elect can hear the word but that's have no root.

This places election outside of God's means of grace rather than in them; election is a doctrine of comfort for us that believe that we might in confidence trust God's gracious work and that it is for us; namely, to trust in the sure and certain word of the Gospel that Christ died for us and that our sins are forgiven. We did not choose Him, Her chose us.

The problem here is that election is not God saying, "Okay, you, you, not you, not you, you, not you"; that is not the biblical doctrine of election; the biblical doctrine of election is that God chose us in Christ, predestining us to salvation in Him.

Salvation is a finished work for an intended people and not just a possibilty.

The intended people is sinners, all sinners, everyone; and you are correct the work is finished; Christ saves us, not in potential but actually. The objective work of Christ is the salvation of the world.

Now if Christ died as a substitute for every person that would mean that every person has salvation or Christ work on the cross can fail in what it's meant to do.

And that's the Crux Theologorum, we are saved apart from ourselves by the grace of God by Christ's finished work; the regenerate did not choose Him, He chose them. But God does not damn anyone, nobody is excluded, men are damned because they reject the Son of God and choose to be damned. Damnation does not arise by the will of God, but by the will of sinful man.

Calvinisim looks at how we are absolutely helpless in our own to come to Christ, even our faith is a gift to us from God. Phil. 1:29. 2nd Tim. 2:25. John 6:28-29.

As does Lutheranism. But we also confess Scripture where it tells us that "God consigned all to disobedience so that He might have mercy on all" and "God is the Savior of all men, especially those that belief" and "God is unwilling that any should perish" and "As long as I live, says the Lord GOD, I do not take pleasure in the death of the wicked, but that the wicked turn from his way and live". For the Lutheran God's grace is unconditional and for all men, His love is for the entire lost world of sinners; Christ died for the ungodly, God demonstrates His love in that while we were yet still sinners Christ died for us, etc.

Christ died for all, for God desires that all be saved. There's no getting around that.

The chief error of Calvinism is that it has chosen to emphasize sovereignty over grace; and has therefore ignored the essence of the Gospel. Seeking to divine God's will apart from His revealed word and means by which we encounter the Revealed God, clothed in Jesus Christ, crucified and raised from the dead for the sins of the whole world, who has called, elected, predestined us in Him, and accomplished our salvation.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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Innerfire89

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It's not God's will that any should perish but due to the free will of the non elect they do perish and God knows this. In other words God doesn't force anyone to come to Christ. God wants them to come but they don't, now if Christ already took their punishment they would have nothing to be punished for but still would be, sin would be punished twice because we know that some will be punished. A debt paid is a debt paid.
 
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ViaCrucis

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It's not God's will that any should perish but due to the free will of the non elect they do perish and God knows this. In other words God doesn't force anyone to come to Christ. God wants them to come but they don't, now if Christ already took their punishment they would have nothing to be punished for but still would be, sin would be punished twice because we know that some will be punished. A debt paid is a debt paid.


God appropriates to us what Christ has done through His means.

"For neither you nor I could ever know anything of Christ, or believe on Him, and obtain Him for our Lord, unless it were offered to us and granted to our hearts by the Holy Ghost through the preaching of the Gospel. The work is done and accomplished; for Christ has acquired and gained the treasure for us by His suffering, death, resurrection, etc. But if the work remained concealed so that no one knew of it, then it would be in vain and lost. That this treasure, therefore, might not lie buried, but be appropriated and enjoyed, God has caused the Word to go forth and be proclaimed, in which He gives the Holy Ghost to bring this treasure home and appropriate it to us." - The Large Catechism, II.38

Romans 10:14-17

-CryptoLutheran
 
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Innerfire89

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It's not that God damned them but that they will be shown justice. Romans 9:22-23. What if God, choosing to show His wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the object of his wraith- prepared for destution? What if He did this to make the riches of His glory known to the objects of His mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory.
 
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Innerfire89

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God appropriates to us what Christ has done through His means.

"For neither you nor I could ever know anything of Christ, or believe on Him, and obtain Him for our Lord, unless it were offered to us and granted to our hearts by the Holy Ghost through the preaching of the Gospel. The work is done and accomplished; for Christ has acquired and gained the treasure for us by His suffering, death, resurrection, etc. But if the work remained concealed so that no one knew of it, then it would be in vain and lost. That this treasure, therefore, might not lie buried, but be appropriated and enjoyed, God has caused the Word to go forth and be proclaimed, in which He gives the Holy Ghost to bring this treasure home and appropriate it to us." - The Large Catechism, II.38

Romans 10:14-17

-CryptoLutheran
I'm confused now are you agreeing with me?
 
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ViaCrucis

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I'm confused now are you agreeing with me?

My post is in address specifically to this statement you made:

"God wants them to come but they don't, now if Christ already took their punishment they would have nothing to be punished for but still would be, sin would be punished twice because we know that some will be punished."

That if Christ died for everyone, including those who in the end reject Him, then their sin is "punished twice", once on the Cross and then in Hell. Is that what you are saying?

If so then that is why I said what I said; the work of Christ is appropriated to us. The one who rejects Christ and the grace of God rejects the forgiveness which is theirs in Christ; this forgiveness of sins is applied to us by God's means. Christ died for my sins, that forgiveness is appropriated to me through the Means instituted by God, namely Word and Sacrament. Without that appropriation--without those Means--Christ's work is not appropriated and applied (as far as it is revealed to us). That is why the preaching of the Gospel is efficacious, the word goes forth and accomplishes what God sets it out to do (Isaiah 55:11).

We are not saved by accepting what God has done for us in Jesus, because we are dead in our trespasses and the will is fallen, broken, and bound under the slavery of sin; which is why God efficaciously works through Means to appropriate the work of Christ to save us.

We are damned by our rejection of what God has done for us in Jesus. No one is damned because God refuses them, God refuses none; we are damned by our own choice to reject the Gospel.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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ViaCrucis

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It's not that God damned them but that they will be shown justice. Romans 9:22-23. What if God, choosing to show His wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the object of his wraith- prepared for destution? What if He did this to make the riches of His glory known to the objects of His mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory.

Don't stop reading in Romans 9, keep reading through Romans 10 and 11. You can't stop reading after Paul says "Jacob I have loved and Esau I have hated" and "What if God, choosing to show His wrath and make His power known, bore with great patience the object of His wrath" etc; you have to keep reading because Paul isn't telling us that God picks some for salvation and picks some for damnation, Paul is telling us that all--both Jew and Gentile--are condemned (keep in mind that Paul begins his argument right there in the first chapter, and the Apostle has already stated that "all have sinned", both Jew and Gentile) and so the Apostle continues his argument reaching its climax:

"So that you may not claim to be wiser than you are, brothers and sisters, I want you to understand this mystery: a hardening has come upon part of Israel, until the full number of the Gentiles has come in. And so all Israel will be saved; as it is written,

“Out of Zion will come the Deliverer;
he will banish ungodliness from Jacob.”
“And this is my covenant with them,
when I take away their sins.”

As regards the gospel they are enemies of God for your sake; but as regards election they are beloved, for the sake of their ancestors; for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. Just as you were once disobedient to God but have now received mercy because of their disobedience, so they have now been disobedient in order that, by the mercy shown to you, they too may now receive mercy. For God has imprisoned all in disobedience so that he may be merciful to all.

O the depth of the riches and wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are his judgments and how inscrutable his ways!

“For who has known the mind of the Lord?
Or who has been his counselor?”
“Or who has given a gift to him,
to receive a gift in return?”

For from him and through him and to him are all things. To him be the glory forever. Amen.
"

Jacob, the elect of God, given the covenants, the promise, and the prophets.
Esau, who did not inherit the birthright.

To Jacob (the Jews) God has mercy.
To Esau (the Gentiles) God has mercy.

God will have mercy on whom He will have mercy, and on whom will He have mercy? On all.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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sdowney717

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It's not God's will that any should perish but due to the free will of the non elect they do perish and God knows this. In other words God doesn't force anyone to come to Christ. God wants them to come but they don't, now if Christ already took their punishment they would have nothing to be punished for but still would be, sin would be punished twice because we know that some will be punished. A debt paid is a debt paid.

Christ gave Himself for us so that we are redeemed, as a realized actual atonement from our sin. Those He predestined, etc... Those He foreknew... So that Christ would be the firstborn among many brothers... It is by faith that it might be according to grace , so that the promise is made SURE to all the seed (elect)... like Abraham who is the father of us all whom God called.

Titus 2:14
who gave Himself for us, that He might redeem us from every lawless deed and purify for Himself His own special people, zealous for good works.

Ephesians 5:25
Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ also loved the church and gave Himself for her,

God sent Paul to certain Gentiles, but forbid him to go into certain places in Asia.

Acts 26:17-19New King James Version (NKJV)
17 I will deliver you from the Jewish people, as well as from the Gentiles, to whom I now send you, 18 to open their eyes, in order to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who are sanctified by faith in Me.’

You must be sent to someone particular by God, for the targeted someone to hear and believe.
And they must have spiritual ears to hear what God says or it is just foolishness to them. The Holy SPirit goes ahead of the people He sends.

Romans 10
14 How then shall they call on Him in whom they have not believed?
And how shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear without a preacher?
15 And how shall they preach unless they are sent? As it is written:

“How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the gospel of peace,
Who bring glad tidings of good things!”

16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, “Lord, who has believed our report?” 17 So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

Now the Lord sent out generally to all the world His people to preach the good news, but the LORD directed their steps, and prevented some from hearing the gospel, He forbid them, not desiring for certain ones to hear. God's will be done and He makes sure t is.

Acts 16:6-7New King James Version (NKJV)

6 Now when they had gone through Phrygia and the region of Galatia, they were forbidden by the Holy Spirit to preach the word in Asia. 7 After they had come to Mysia, they tried to go into Bithynia, but the Spirit did not permit them.

1 Corinthians 15New King James Version (NKJV)
The Risen Christ, Faith’s Reality
1 Moreover, brethren, I declare to you the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received and in which you stand, 2 by which also you are saved, if you hold fast that word which I preached to you—unless you believed in vain.

3 For I delivered to you first of all that which I also received: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4 and that He was buried, and that He rose again the third day according to the Scriptures, 5 and that He was seen by Cephas, then by the twelve. 6 After that He was seen by over five hundred brethren at once, of whom the greater part remain to the present, but some have fallen asleep. 7 After that He was seen by James, then by all the apostles. 8 Then last of all He was seen by me also, as by one born out of due time.
 
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