John 22-71 a case for Calvinism?

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Reading through Gospel of John 6 and immediately thought of predestination. I wouldn't classify myself as Calvinist and I accept I may have comprehension barriers others do not, (1 Corinthians 13:9-13 in my defense! :))

I do find its claims interesting to explore. John 6 was very striking in this regard, the whole predestination thing jumped out. What do you think? Will bold the most pertinent vereses...


JOHN 6:22-71

22 The day following, when the people which stood on the other side of the sea saw that there was none other boat there, save that one whereinto his disciples were entered, and that Jesus went not with his disciples into the boat, but that his disciples were gone away alone;

23 (Howbeit there came other boats from Tiberias nigh unto the place where they did eat bread, after that the Lord had given thanks:)

24 When the people therefore saw that Jesus was not there, neither his disciples, they also took shipping, and came to Capernaum, seeking for Jesus.

25 And when they had found him on the other side of the sea, they said unto him, Rabbi, when camest thou hither?

26 Jesus answered them and said, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Ye seek me, not because ye saw the miracles, but because ye did eat of the loaves, and were filled.

27 Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed.

28 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?

29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

30 They said therefore unto him, What sign shewest thou then, that we may see, and believe thee? what dost thou work?

31 Our fathers did eat manna in the desert; as it is written, He gave them bread from heaven to eat.

32 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Moses gave you not that bread from heaven; but my Father giveth you the true bread from heaven.

33 For the bread of God is he which cometh down from heaven, and giveth life unto the world.

34 Then said they unto him, Lord, evermore give us this bread.

35 And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.

36 But I said unto you, That ye also have seen me, and believe not.

37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.

39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

41 The Jews then murmured at him, because he said, I am the bread which came down from heaven.

42 And they said, Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? how is it then that he saith, I came down from heaven?

43 Jesus therefore answered and said unto them, Murmur not among yourselves.

44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

46 Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father.

47 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.

48 I am that bread of life.

49 Your fathers did eat manna in the wilderness, and are dead.

50 This is the bread which cometh down from heaven, that a man may eat thereof, and not die.

51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.

52 The Jews therefore strove among themselves, saying, How can this man give us his flesh to eat?

53 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.

54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.

55 For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed.

56 He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him.

57 As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me.

58 This is that bread which came down from heaven: not as your fathers did eat manna, and are dead: he that eateth of this bread shall live for ever.

59 These things said he in the synagogue, as he taught in Capernaum.

60 Many therefore of his disciples, when they had heard this, said, This is an hard saying; who can hear it?

61 When Jesus knew in himself that his disciples murmured at it, he said unto them, Doth this offend you?

62 What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before?

63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.

65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.

66 From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.

67 Then said Jesus unto the twelve, Will ye also go away?

68 Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life.

69 And we believe and are sure that thou art that Christ, the Son of the living God.

70 Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil?

71 He spake of Judas Iscariot the son of Simon: for he it was that should betray him, being one of the twelve.
 
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51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.

You know, I've often wondered if Calvinist Bibles even included John 6:51. If it is the Word of God, and if the Bible is to be believed to find eternal life, why don't the Calvinists believe this verse? "if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever:
 
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Tree of Life

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You know, I've often wondered if Calvinist Bibles even included John 6:51. If it is the Word of God, and if the Bible is to be believed to find eternal life, why don't the Calvinists believe this verse? "if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever:

If you don't know how a Calvinist would explain this verse then you don't understand Calvinism.
 
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If you don't know how a Calvinist would explain this verse then you don't understand Calvinism.

I never HAVE understood Calvinism. I cannot believe that an all-loving God could create many more people than He is willing to let into heaven, only to throw the majority--no matter how they've prayed, believed evangelized, etc.--to hell. It makes God a monster, and not a God.
 
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I never HAVE understood Calvinism. I cannot believe that an all-loving God could create many more people than He is willing to let into heaven, only to throw the majority--no matter how they've prayed, believed evangelized, etc.--to hell. It makes God a monster, and not a God.
watch out for those deadly sins.
 
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I never HAVE understood Calvinism. I cannot believe that an all-loving God could create many more people than He is willing to let into heaven, only to throw the majority--no matter how they've prayed, believed evangelized, etc.--to hell. It makes God a monster, and not a God.

Do you think you're describing a Calvinistic view here? Because, taken all together, you're not.
 
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RC1970

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Reading through Gospel of John 6 and immediately thought of predestination. I wouldn't classify myself as Calvinist and I accept I may have comprehension barriers others do not, (1 Corinthians 13:9-13 in my defense! :))

I do find its claims interesting to explore. John 6 was very striking in this regard, the whole predestination thing jumped out. What do you think? Will bold the most pertinent vereses...


JOHN 6:22-71

22 The day following, when the people which stood on the other side of the sea saw that there was none other boat there, save that one whereinto his disciples were entered, and that Jesus went not with his disciples into the boat, but that his disciples were gone away alone;

23 (Howbeit there came other boats from Tiberias nigh unto the place where they did eat bread, after that the Lord had given thanks:)

24 When the people therefore saw that Jesus was not there, neither his disciples, they also took shipping, and came to Capernaum, seeking for Jesus.

25 And when they had found him on the other side of the sea, they said unto him, Rabbi, when camest thou hither?

26 Jesus answered them and said, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Ye seek me, not because ye saw the miracles, but because ye did eat of the loaves, and were filled.

27 Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed.

28 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?

29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

30 They said therefore unto him, What sign shewest thou then, that we may see, and believe thee? what dost thou work?

31 Our fathers did eat manna in the desert; as it is written, He gave them bread from heaven to eat.

32 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Moses gave you not that bread from heaven; but my Father giveth you the true bread from heaven.

33 For the bread of God is he which cometh down from heaven, and giveth life unto the world.

34 Then said they unto him, Lord, evermore give us this bread.

35 And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.

36 But I said unto you, That ye also have seen me, and believe not.

37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.

39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

41 The Jews then murmured at him, because he said, I am the bread which came down from heaven.

42 And they said, Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? how is it then that he saith, I came down from heaven?

43 Jesus therefore answered and said unto them, Murmur not among yourselves.

44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

46 Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father.

47 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.

48 I am that bread of life.

49 Your fathers did eat manna in the wilderness, and are dead.

50 This is the bread which cometh down from heaven, that a man may eat thereof, and not die.

51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.

52 The Jews therefore strove among themselves, saying, How can this man give us his flesh to eat?

53 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.

54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.

55 For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed.

56 He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him.

57 As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me.

58 This is that bread which came down from heaven: not as your fathers did eat manna, and are dead: he that eateth of this bread shall live for ever.

59 These things said he in the synagogue, as he taught in Capernaum.

60 Many therefore of his disciples, when they had heard this, said, This is an hard saying; who can hear it?

61 When Jesus knew in himself that his disciples murmured at it, he said unto them, Doth this offend you?

62 What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before?

63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.

65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.

66 From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.

67 Then said Jesus unto the twelve, Will ye also go away?

68 Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life.

69 And we believe and are sure that thou art that Christ, the Son of the living God.

70 Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil?

71 He spake of Judas Iscariot the son of Simon: for he it was that should betray him, being one of the twelve.
Yes, you will find Calvinism taught throughout the Gospel of John.
 
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I cannot believe that an all-loving God could create many more people than He is willing to let into heaven, only to throw the majority--no matter how they've prayed, believed evangelized, etc.--to hell. It makes God a monster, and not a God.

The same problem exists without Calvinism though. With Calvinism, all those born of God return to him. Without Calvinism, some of those born of God are lost in the end. That's not what a good Shepard would do.

I believe the latter end of your post reveals a misunderstanding. Those who pray and evangelize and seek God are surely born of God, whether they endure dark periods of doubt and struggles with the faith or not.

Jesus says in John 6:45 and John 6:47 for example.
 
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A_Thinker

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I never HAVE understood Calvinism. I cannot believe that an all-loving God could create many more people than He is willing to let into heaven, only to throw the majority--no matter how they've prayed, believed evangelized, etc.--to hell. It makes God a monster, and not a God.

The best apolegetic against Calvin are those scriptures that indicate that God predestined according to His foreknowledge ...

“For those who God foreknew He also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of His Son, that He might be the Firstborn among many brothers”.

- Romans 8:29-30

1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ,

To the elect, exiles of the Dispersion throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, 2 chosen by the foreknowledge of God the Father and sanctified by the Spirit for obedience to Jesus Christ and sprinkling by His blood:

Grace and peace be yours in abundance.

- 1 Peter 1:1-2
 
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A_Thinker

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The same problem exists without Calvinism though. With Calvinism, all those born of God return to him. Without Calvinism, some of those born of God are lost in the end. That's not what a good Shepard would do.

Perseverance of the saints is not soley a Calvinist belief ...
 
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St_Worm2

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You know, I've often wondered if Calvinist Bibles even included John 6:51. If it is the Word of God, and if the Bible is to be believed to find eternal life, why don't the Calvinists believe this verse? "if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever:
Hi MB, do you also believe this verse?

1 Timothy 2
15 Women will be saved through the bearing of children if they continue in faith and love and sanctity with self-restraint.
Or these verses:

John 6:37-40 (excerpt)
All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and ... of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day.

I suppose the question comes down to this (for me anyway), do we always take each verse in the most pedestrian way possible, and out of its immediate context (as well out of the context of the rest of the Bible), or do we try to see if there might be something more to each of these verses than our presuppositions will allow for at first blush?

Finally, if we are saved by grace through faith/by believing (as the Bible tells us we are), apart from the things we do, how can we also be saved by the things we do :scratch: (by eating, or childbearing, or by anything else ... other than believing we are saved by the things HE did for us?)

Thanks!

Yours and His,
David

Titus 3
5 He saved us, NOT ON THE BASIS OF DEEDS
(not even those deeds) which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy....
 
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I never HAVE understood Calvinism. I cannot believe that an all-loving God could create many more people than He is willing to let into heaven, only to throw the majority--no matter how they've prayed, believed evangelized, etc.--to hell. It makes God a monster, and not a God.
Hi again MB, well, you said you have "NEVER understood Calvinism", and you continue to prove yourself correct about that (or you are choosing not to understand it ;)).

All who confess Christ/trust in Him & in His works alone (and trust that God will save them on that basis alone, just like He promised us He would :amen:), who desire to be saved from their sins/sinful selves in the here and now, and who ask God to forgive them (and to be their Savior and Lord), will be saved .. e.g. Romans 10:9-10 :preach:

IOW, no one is going to end up in Hell w/o God who truly wants to be with Him, both now and in eternity. And God is the one who will make certain of that according to the Bible .. e.g. John 10:27-28; Philippians 1:6, 2:13; Hebrews 7:25; 1 John 5:13 (+John 6:37-40, 44, 65 .. see the OP).

That's what Calvinism teaches :)

Soli Deo gloria!!

Yours and His,
David

Romans 4
5 To the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness.
 
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bling

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Reading through Gospel of John 6 and immediately thought of predestination. I wouldn't classify myself as Calvinist and I accept I may have comprehension barriers others do not, (1 Corinthians 13:9-13 in my defense! :))

I do find its claims interesting to explore. John 6 was very striking in this regard, the whole predestination thing jumped out. What do you think? Will bold the most pertinent vereses...


JOHN 6:22-71

22 The day following, when the people which stood on the other side of the sea saw that there was none other boat there, save that one whereinto his disciples were entered, and that Jesus went not with his disciples into the boat, but that his disciples were gone away alone;

23 (Howbeit there came other boats from Tiberias nigh unto the place where they did eat bread, after that the Lord had given thanks:)

24 When the people therefore saw that Jesus was not there, neither his disciples, they also took shipping, and came to Capernaum, seeking for Jesus.

25 And when they had found him on the other side of the sea, they said unto him, Rabbi, when camest thou hither?

26 Jesus answered them and said, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Ye seek me, not because ye saw the miracles, but because ye did eat of the loaves, and were filled.

27 Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed.

28 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?

29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

30 They said therefore unto him, What sign shewest thou then, that we may see, and believe thee? what dost thou work?

31 Our fathers did eat manna in the desert; as it is written, He gave them bread from heaven to eat.

32 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Moses gave you not that bread from heaven; but my Father giveth you the true bread from heaven.

33 For the bread of God is he which cometh down from heaven, and giveth life unto the world.

34 Then said they unto him, Lord, evermore give us this bread.

35 And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.

36 But I said unto you, That ye also have seen me, and believe not.

37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.

39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

41 The Jews then murmured at him, because he said, I am the bread which came down from heaven.

42 And they said, Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? how is it then that he saith, I came down from heaven?

43 Jesus therefore answered and said unto them, Murmur not among yourselves.

44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

46 Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father.

47 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.

48 I am that bread of life.

49 Your fathers did eat manna in the wilderness, and are dead.

50 This is the bread which cometh down from heaven, that a man may eat thereof, and not die.

51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.

52 The Jews therefore strove among themselves, saying, How can this man give us his flesh to eat?

53 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.

54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.

55 For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed.

56 He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him.

57 As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me.

58 This is that bread which came down from heaven: not as your fathers did eat manna, and are dead: he that eateth of this bread shall live for ever.

59 These things said he in the synagogue, as he taught in Capernaum.

60 Many therefore of his disciples, when they had heard this, said, This is an hard saying; who can hear it?

61 When Jesus knew in himself that his disciples murmured at it, he said unto them, Doth this offend you?

62 What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before?

63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.

65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.

66 From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.

67 Then said Jesus unto the twelve, Will ye also go away?

68 Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life.

69 And we believe and are sure that thou art that Christ, the Son of the living God.

70 Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil?

71 He spake of Judas Iscariot the son of Simon: for he it was that should betray him, being one of the twelve.

John 6: 22-71 is not meant to be an easy passage and it drove most of Christ’s followers away and even drives people today away. It would take lots of explaining and the rest of Christ’s life and death to help these people to become followers.

First and foremost you have to realize this was said specifically to the group of people being addressed at that time and place. We need to understand the truths Jesus was trying to communicate to that specific group and not just take it like it is a sermon to us today without need of explaining.

Secondly we need to keep in mind how Christ responds to questions and comments, because Jesus does not “address” the verbalized comments or questions unless that is truly what is on their heart, but Jesus knows what is on their heart and address that specifically to help them move to the next spiritual level we might say. The response of Jesus may not be understandable by those being addressed at the time, but they will understand later even after the Kingdom comes to them on the day of Pentecost and even after that.

The masses are a very fickle group, so Jesus is not trying to amass a large following of them at this time, but the emphasis will always be on the small group (12 and 120).

In the end we have this: 66 From this time many of his disciples turned back and no longer followed him. 67 “You do not want to leave too, do you?” Jesus asked the Twelve.

Are we saying these disciples who turned back at this time are lost forever? Was Nicodemus lost forever after going to Christ at night?

Do you think Jesus looked at the hearts of all those and found only 11 elect, so He drives off the rest?

The encounter in John 6 comes fairly early in Christ’s ministry, so how much knowledge of Christ can the person have to build his/her faith on and what did they “believe” about Christ at this time?

Christ needs to get his group of followers down to those truly committed, since there is a long road ahead and He does not need lots “fans” needing lots of babying (He has enough of that with the 12).

Christ is not going to lie to the group or order them away, but, like God does, will allow them to leave of their own free will (it will be by there choice and they will not be able to later blame Jesus).

We talk about “works” and “faith only” but Jesus explains it with: 28 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God? 29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

Believe is the verb of the noun “Faith” so it means the same thing.

“Believe or faith” is not really a “work” you do (doing something to earn a wage) and the people would not recognize it as a “work” the same as we do not recognize faith as a work. In the Kingdom that comes with Pentecost (and has always really been the case), faith will be the only thing the person does bring to relationship which is not a “work” as defined by man.

They ask a strait forward honest question which Jesus answers directly, but they asked “What must we do…” and Jesus did not answer “you can do nothing”, which seems to be the correct Calvin answer?

The “ye believe” is referring to those who asked Him and they will also walk away, so could they have believe or is Jesus misleading them by telling them to do something they cannot do?

Let’s look at your specific verses:
37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

And

39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

If someone leaves it will not be Christ’s fault since He did not cast them out or lose them, so the question is who is the Father “giving to Jesus”?

32…. it is my Father who gives you the true bread from heaven.

40. For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life

45. …They will all be taught by God. Everyone who has heard the Father and learned from him comes to me.

All those that hear, see, learn and believe come (are given) to Jesus and it is the Father’s doing, since it is God who “taught” them. This is not saying those God implanted with faith and knowledge or a soft heart, but who were taught and believed.

The question is thus: “How did this faith come about?”

All mature adults have a God given faith in something or someone, but not everyone directs that faith/trust toward the creator (again faith is not work).

Next verses;

44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

“draw” is the same word “invite” and we know everyone at the banquet has been invited (drawn there by the Master), but some refused the draw (invitation) of their own free will.

Next verse:

64. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.


65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.

Jesus knows like God knows who will be saved and who will be lost, but again it will not be God’s or Christ’s fault since they do their part perfectly and really treat everyone equally, giving the same opportunities for the willing individual to fulfill his/her earthly objective.

Again the person must be taught by God and believe.

Next verse:


70 Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil?

So did Jesus make Judas hell bound or did Jesus do all He could to help Judas not to be lost, but it was still up to Judas? Jesus knew Judas would never repent, but that did not relieve Jesus of His actions toward Judas to help him.

These verses in John 6 do not take man’s free will ability away, but tell us more about what God and Christ are doing, their part in the process with “faith” being man’s part.
 
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Monk Brendan

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I believe the latter end of your post reveals a misunderstanding. Those who pray and evangelize and seek God are surely born of God, whether they endure dark periods of doubt and struggles with the faith or not.

My understanding of the Calvinist doctrine is that--from the beginning of the world, God only created so many people that will get into heaven, and the rest will end up in hell. Now, if one of those destined to hell somehow hears and believes the Gospel--and it's pretty hard to avoid--then, no matter how many times he answers an altar call, no matter how many times he goes to church, no matter how often he prays, no matter how hard he trusts in Jesus, he is still bound to hell, because God predestined him for hell.

Also, that totally robs man of free will. If free will is an attribute of God (and it is), and we are made in God's image (which we are), THEN WE HAVE FREE WILL!

But I understand that Calvin denies man having free will, which means that we are just robots, each parroting what God has programmed into us to say, be it Blessed be God, or hurray for Buddha. Even then, to make living breathing beings solely to be thrown into hell for doing what God programmed us to say and do and believe is not just.
 
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Monk Brendan

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I suppose the question comes down to this (for me anyway), do we always take each verse in the most pedestrian way possible, and out of its immediate context (as well out of the context of the rest of the Bible), or do we try to see if there might be something more to each of these verses than our presuppositions will allow for at first blush?

Finally, if we are saved by grace through faith/by believing (as the Bible tells us we are), apart from the things we do, how can we also be saved by the things we do :scratch: (by eating, or childbearing, or by anything else ... other than believing we saved by the things HE did for us?)

I have never said we are saved by works, and if you say that to me just because I am Catholic, you really lack understanding.

Grace saves us. Grace from God. If ANYONE has faith enough to believe, then HE/SHE will be saved.

Aside from that, I was talking about the obvious lack of understanding about the Eucharist, which most Protestants deny being anything MORE than a symbol. Jesus said that His flesh is food indeed, and in other places, he specifically stated that the bread and wine BECOME the true Body and Blood of our Lord, God, and Savior Jesus Christ. To read anything other than that is moving away from the clear text of the Bible.
 
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Monk Brendan

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All who confess Christ/trust in Him & in His works alone (and trust that God will save them on that basis alone, just like He promised us He would :amen:), who desire to be saved from their sins/sinful selves in the here and now, and who ask God to forgive them (and to be their Savior and Lord), will be saved .. e.g. Romans 10:9-10 :preach:


Okay, then, how is it that God still sends sinners to hell?

Or for that matter, why evangelize? If God has to do ALL the work, and if (as Calvin taught) we have no free will, why bother spreading the word at all? If God wants them in heaven, then it is up to God to get them there, and all of the evangelism programs, ROMAN ROAD, EVANGELISM EXPLOSION, etc. are just a waste of time, paper, money and breath.
 
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Tree of Life

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Okay, then, how is it that God still sends sinners to hell?

Or for that matter, why evangelize? If God has to do ALL the work, and if (as Calvin taught) we have no free will, why bother spreading the word at all? If God wants them in heaven, then it is up to God to get them there, and all of the evangelism programs, ROMAN ROAD, EVANGELISM EXPLOSION, etc. are just a waste of time, paper, money and breath.

You got us. Calvinists never thought about this one before.
 
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