john 20.28 nom for nom.

[he-man]

NKJV) John 20:28 And Thomas answered and said to Him, "My Lord and my God!"

απεκριθη ο θωμας και ειπεν αυτω ο (omitted, in English idiom of mental sight) κς μου και ο (omitted, in English idiom of mental sight) θς μου
Jn 28 And Thomas answering [G611] said to him, My Lord and my God.

29 The Jesus said to him, because you have perceived me, you have believed: blessed those not having discerned, and believed.
ειπεν δε αυτω ο ις οτι εωρακας [G3708] με πεπιστευκας [G4100] μακαριοι οι μη ϊδοντες και πιστευ

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif][FONT=Tahoma, sans-serif]G3708 οράω ἑώρακας aorist passive for [G990] βλεπω To see, look, behold, perceive, future: of mental sight, discern, compare [G3799][/FONT][/FONT]

 

[Der Alte]

NKJV) John 20:28 And Thomas answered and said to Him, "My Lord and my God!"

Rotherham) John 20:28 Thomas answered, and said unto him--My Lord, and my God!

GodsWord) John 20:28 "Thomas responded to Jesus, "My Lord and my God!"

(NASB) John 20:28 Thomas answered and said to Him, "My Lord and my God!"[

Wey NT) John 20:28 "My Lord and my God!" replied Thomas.

(LITV (Green)) John 20:28 And Thomas answered and said to Him, My Lord and my God!

French LS) John 20:28 Thomas lui répondit: Mon Seigneur et mon Dieu!

](German Luther 1912) John 20:28 Thomas antwortete und sprach zu ihm: Mein HERR und mein Gott!

note the red !, it means all these translations translate "my Lord and my God" as an exclamation. They are just afraid to translate it correctly all the way and translate the def. article o as o, thus O my lord and O my God." seems everyone on both sides of t he issue want the definite article to disappear. Man, sure looks conspiratorial.

Joh 20:28-29
(28) [size=+1]και απεκριθη ο θωμας και ειπεν αυτω ο κυριος μου και ο θεος μου[/size]
(29) [size=+1]λεγει αυτω ο ιησους οτι εωρακας με θωμα πεπιστευκας μακαριοι οι μη ιδοντες και πιστευσαντες[/size]​

Here is John 20:28-29. If "o kurios mou and o Theos mou," vs. 28, is an exclamation, "O my Lord and O my God" then "o thomas" vs. 28 and "o ihsous," vs. 29, must also be an exclamation. So lets translate these two verses "according to 2Duck."

Joh 20:28 And O Thomas answered and said unto him, O My Lord and O my God.
29 O Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.​

 

[he-man]

Joh 20:28-29(28) [SIZE=+1]και απεκριθη ο θωμας και ειπεν αυτω ο κυριος μου και ο θεος μου [/SIZE](29) [SIZE=+1]λεγει αυτω ο ιησους οτι εωρακας με θωμα πεπιστευκας μακαριοι οι μη ιδοντες και πιστευσαντες[/SIZE]
Here is John 20:28-29. If "o kurios mou and o Theos mou," vs. 28, is an exclamation, "O my Lord and O my God" then "o thomas" vs. 28 and "o ihsous," vs. 29, must also be an exclamation. So lets translate these two verses

Except for the fact that it was after the resurrection and και is not in that position in the manuscript and the ο is omitted, in English idiom of mental sight) plus the word is ειπεν not [SIZE=+1]λεγει. [/SIZE]The word θωμα is also not in the manuscript in verse 29

απεκριθη ο θωμας και ειπεν αυτω ο (omitted, in English idiom of mental sight) κς μου και ο (omitted, in English idiom of mental sight) θς μου
Jn 28 And Thomas answering [G611] said to him, My Lord and my God.

29 The Jesus said to him, because you have perceived me, you have believed: blessed those not having discerned, and believed.
ειπεν δε αυτω ο ις οτι εωρακας [G3708] με πεπιστευκας [G4100] μακαριοι οι μη ϊδοντες και πιστευσαντες
(Codex Sinaiticus)
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif][FONT=Tahoma, sans-serif]G3708 οράω ἑώρακας aorist passive for [G990] βλεπω To see, look, behold, perceive, future: of mental sight, discern, compare [G3799][/FONT][/FONT]

 

[Der Alte]

Except for the fact that it was after the resurrection and και is not in that position in the manuscript and the ο is omitted, in English idiom of mental sight) plus the word is ειπεν not λεγει. The word θωμα is also not in the manuscript in verse 29

And you think this is relevant how? The position of a word in Greek has little effect on the meaning. The Tense, Voice, Mood, etc. of words are important, those are not changed in the mss. mentioned.

It is irrelevant that [SIZE="+1"]θωμα[/SIZE] does not occur in vs. 29. That Jesus is speaking to Thomas is clear in the text.

απεκριθη ο θωμας και ειπεν αυτω ο (omitted, in English idiom of mental sight) κς μου και ο (omitted, in English idiom of mental sight) θς μου
Jn 28 And Thomas answering [G611] said to him, My Lord and my God.

The definite article has nothing to do with "mental sight." English does not use the definite article with names, Greek does. Omicron, "[SIZE="+1"]ο[/SIZE]" is the Greek definite article.

29 The Jesus said to him, because you have perceived me, you have believed: blessed those not having discerned, and believed.
ειπεν δε αυτω ο ις οτι εωρακας [G3708] με πεπιστευκας [G4100] μακαριοι οι μη ϊδοντες και πιστευσαντες
(Codex Sinaiticus)
G3708 οράω ἑώρακας aorist passive for [G990] βλεπω To see, look, behold, perceive, future: of mental sight, discern, compare [G3799]

Here is Jn 20:28 from the NA27 which is widely recognized as the correct text.

[SIZE="+1"]29 λέγει αὐτῷ ὁ Ἰησοῦς, Ὅτι ἑώρακάς με πεπίστευκασ; μακάριοι οἱ μὴ ἰδόντες καὶ πιστεύσαντες.[/SIZE]​

While [SIZE="+1"]ἑώρακάς[/SIZE] can mean "mental sight," in Jn 20:29 it means to "see," with the eyes.

 

[2ducklow]

more translations of john 20/28 b wherein it is translated as an exclamation

NET ©Thomas replied to him, 1 “My Lord and my God!” 2
NIV ©
Thomas said to him, "My Lord and my God!"
NASB ©
Thomas answered and said to Him, "My Lord and my God!"
NLT ©
"My Lord and my God!" Thomas exclaimed.
MSG ©
Thomas said, "My Master! My God!"
BBE ©
And Thomas said in answer, My Lord and my God!
NRSV ©
Thomas answered him, "My Lord and my God!"
NKJV ©
And Thomas answered and said to Him, "My Lord and my God!"

Notes1 tn Grk “answered and said to him.”
2 sn Should Thomas’ exclamation be understood as two subjects with the rest of the sentence omitted (“My Lord and my God has truly risen from the dead”), as predicate nominatives (“You are my Lord and my God”), or as vocatives (“My Lord and my God!”)? Probably the most likely is something between the second and third alternatives. It seems that the second is slightly more likely here, because the context appears confessional. Thomas’ statement, while it may have been an exclamation, does in fact confess the faith which he had previously lacked, and Jesus responds to Thomas’ statement in the following verse as if it were a confession

NETBible: John 20:28

this guy lieaves out the nominative of exclamation as a possible meaning. It's like no one wants to face that truth cause to face it is to have to accept it.
I do accept however that the first meaning is possible, it is possible that thomas used 'the lord of meand the god of me as subjects to a sentence where the rest was understood. NOTE. the above author also refuses to acknowledge that the greek actuially says "the lord of me and the god of me", If bible translators for once could be honest on john 20.28,,which they cant, then the whole jesus is god arguement of john 20.28 would fall by the wayside.

 

[2ducklow]

i finally found a bible that puts the def. article in john 20.28 "the lord of me and the God of me". My angel friends revealed it to me.

ἀπεκρίθη Θωμᾶς καὶ εἶπεν αὐτῷ· Ὁ κύριός μου καὶ ὁ θεός μου.

John 20:28 Parallel Greek Texts

It's the Greek NT. the only bible that puts the def. article in what Thomas said is the orgininalGreek NT. Everybody else can't tell the truth about what John 20.28 actually says. only the original Greek nt is honest on this score. You won't find the def. article "the" in any bible trnslation in any language, All bible translations i n everylanguage, French, German, spanish, Finnish, norwegian, swedish, korean, chinesse all of them leave it out without exception. My angel friends sure are smart, I never saw that before till i asked um fer help.

but to say "the lord of me and the God of me" in English is somewhat awkward, I think most english speaking people would express that idea this way, "the Lord that is mine and the God that is mine". To say "my Lord and my God" is to change the meaning of the verse, which all bibles in every language do. The only other option, which I believe is the correct intended meaning Thomas had, is to translate it as a nominative of exclamation "o my Lord and o my God". So only 2 correct translation options for john 20.28, neither of which anyone in the world uses to translate john 20.28, Everyone and his mother goes for the false translation of john 20.28, namely "my Lord and my God".

 

[he-man]

And you think this is relevant how? It is irrelevant that [SIZE=+1]θωμα[/SIZE] does not occur in vs. 29. While [SIZE=+1]ἑώρακάς[/SIZE] can mean "mental sight," in Jn 20:29 it means to "see," with the eyes.

Back to the old "It is irrelevant!" What is relevant are the facts quoted by Jesus just before jn 20:28:

John 20:17 (KJV) Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

 

[Superfast]

i finally found a bible that puts the def. article in john 20.28 "the lord of me and the God of me". My angel friends revealed it to me.


John 20:28 Parallel Greek Texts

It's the Greek NT. the only bible that puts the def. article in what Thomas said is the orgininalGreek NT. Everybody else can't tell the truth about what John 20.28 actually says. only the original Greek nt is honest on this score. You won't find the def. article "the" in any bible trnslation in any language, All bible translations i n everylanguage, French, German, spanish, Finnish, norwegian, swedish, korean, chinesse all of them leave it out without exception. My angel friends sure are smart, I never saw that before till i asked um fer help.

but to say "the lord of me and the God of me" in English is somewhat awkward, I think most english speaking people would express that idea this way, "the Lord that is mine and the God that is mine". To say "my Lord and my God" is to change the meaning of the verse, which all bibles in every language do. The only other option, which I believe is the correct intended meaning Thomas had, is to translate it as a nominative of exclamation "o my Lord and o my God". So only 2 correct translation options for john 20.28, neither of which anyone in the world uses to translate john 20.28, Everyone and his mother goes for the false translation of john 20.28, namely "my Lord and my God".

Far out man! That is so heavy. I can dig it.

 

[he-man]

Far out man! I can dig it.

What is relevant are the facts quoted by Jesus just before verse 28:
John 20:17 (KJV) Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

 

[Superfast]

What is relevant are the facts quoted by Jesus just before verse 28:
John 20:17 (KJV) Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

relevant to what?

 

[Der Alte]

Far out man! That is so heavy. I can dig it.

Superlow complimenting himself Duckfast. No wait I got that wrong. Superfast who is a sock puppet for 2 Ducklow is complimenting himself, again.

In this post Superfast admits he is 2 Ducklow.

here ya go OzSpen, here is the thread I was talking about. 2ducklow use to be my SN but I changed it to Superfast.

 

[2ducklow]

Translate from


English

<<O my God>>

tramslate

to

Greek

«&#959; &#920;&#949;&#972;&#962; &#956;&#959;&#965;»

Bing Translator

gee, wonder how it says t o say 'my god" in Greek? "thee mou"? Thanks angel friends.
yep it sure does

&#920;&#949;&#941; &#956;&#959;&#965;

and that's from a secular source unpoluted by doctrine like christian scholars are on this issue.
so next question is what does john 20.28 say?
'o theos mou'
so which one does that fit with above? do the math.

 

[Der Alte]

Bing Translator

gee, wonder how it says t o say 'my god" in Greek? "thee mou"? Thanks angel friends.
yep it sure does

&#920;&#949;&#941; &#956;&#959;&#965;

and that's from a secular source unpoluted by doctrine like christian scholars are on this issue.

When I tried Bing it translated "O my God" as [SIZE="+1"]&#937;, &#952;&#949;&#941; &#956;&#959;&#965;[/SIZE] Notice that Omega not omicron.

And "my God" is the same [SIZE="+1"]&#920;&#949;&#941; &#956;&#959;&#965;[/SIZE]

This is somewhat interesting but it assumes that modern Greek is exactly like 1st century Koine Greek. Which is not necessarily true. Then it shows that there is one form for Vocative and Nominative. So it does not help your argument.

 

[2ducklow]

It's become obvious to me now why no one ever translates john 20.28 correctly.

Translate from


Greek

<<O &#920;&#949;&#972;&#962; &#956;&#959;&#965;>>

tramslate

to

English

«O my God»
​

Bing Translator
When it comes to john 20.28 , all bible translators throw greek english dictionaries out the window. When theology and greek grammar collide. Theology always prevails over Greek grammar in Bible translations. John 20.28 is a perfect example.

Hint: the Greek NT says in John 20.28 <<O &#920;&#949;&#972;&#962; &#956;&#959;&#965;>>

So again do the math from the Greek English translation above and tell me what you get.

Or let me put it another way. Which is more important, theology, or what the literal Greek says in the NT as far as translating a verse? Every single bible translator has chosen theology over what the literal Greek says in john 20.28, but I doubt that any of them would admit it or even know it.

I gaurantee you one thing, if when Jesus was before Pilate and Pilate had said "&#959; &#920;&#949;&#972;&#962; &#956;&#959;&#965;. execute Jesus for his words" Every single bible translation in the world would have translated it correctly as "o my God execute Jesus for his words." Cause it would be an instance of theology and grammar being on the same side. The rule is Theology first, grammar second when translating the bible. I think everyone reading this post who has studied the bible to any great extent knows of other instances of this bible translation rule. Whew this new stuff I'm gettn sometimes I know it's coming from God through my angel friends. but one things fer sure it sure is potent. Someone came to my door while wiriting this post and I was so deep in the spirit I didn't know it till she came to my door.

 

[Der Alte]

It's become obvious to me now why no one ever translates john 20.28 correctly. It's because no bible translator ever has been able to read a greek english dictonary such as this one.

[/INDENT]
Bing Translator
When it comes to john 20.28 , all bible translators throw greek english dictionarys out the window.

Bing is not an English Greek dictionary it is a computer translator, it is not 100% accurate and it cannot replace Greek dictionaries or lexicons.

I tried translating "O my God," Bing translated it [SIZE="+1"]&#927; &#920;&#949;&#972;&#962; &#956;&#959;&#965;[/SIZE]

When I back translated [SIZE="+1"]&#927; &#920;&#949;&#972;&#962; &#956;&#959;&#965;[/SIZE], Bing translated it "my God'

"My God," Bing translated [SIZE="+1"]&#920;&#949;&#941; &#956;&#959;&#965;[/SIZE]. Back translated [SIZE="+1"]&#920;&#949;&#941; &#956;&#959;&#965;[/SIZE], Bing translated as "oh my God". Real reliable.

 

[nChrist]

John 20:27-29 KJV Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing. 28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God. 29 Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.

Um? - What was Jesus Christ saying in verses 27 and 29 - and why? It's real simple - what did Thomas believe - verse 28? Jesus Christ is God, one with God the Father and God the Holy Spirit.

 

[2ducklow]

Interesting, it's case sensitive. if you translate o my god you get o thee mou, if on the other hand if you capitalize o and thus translate O my god, you get O theos mou. I'm thinking that an uncapitalized o means nothing but an uncapitalized o so that would be why it's translating it as if it just said my God with a letter in front of it, whereas a capital O which is the greek letter/word for the is translated as O in O my God.

o my god
o &#920;&#949;&#941; &#956;&#959;&#965;

O my god
&#927; &#920;&#949;&#972;&#962; &#956;&#959;&#965;

Translation of O my god in Greek | English-Greek dictionary

Many years ago when I was in college, I had a Greek friend from Thesolonika and I remember asking him if he could read the Greek NT. I asked him that even though at the time I was not a christian. He told me he could read it but with difficulty since there were some expressions and words that they no longer used in modern greek. So my friend Illias V.[ ( I remember his whole name but don't want to expose it, hey it might be an american now for all I know.), he went by Lee though.] would know when reading "O theos mou" that it meant O my God. just as this dictionary states that it means. Hummm, it would be interesting to find out what the Greek orthodox church says about "O theos" and "O theos mou".
Obviously just like everyone else they would say O theos means O God, it's all over the bible, but do they take it to the one of only two places that the bible says O theos mou? I'll see if I can find it.

Now look at O my Lord and O my God.

O my Lord and O my God
O &#940;&#961;&#967;&#959;&#957;&#964;&#945; &#956;&#959;&#965; &#954;&#945;&#953; &#927; &#920;&#949;&#972;&#962; &#956;&#959;&#965;

http://translation.sensagent.com/ O my Lord and O my God/en-el/

Same wording as found in john 20.28 except that the greek word for Lord has changed through the years to '&#945;&#961;&#967;&#959;&#957;&#964;&#945;

Yep Illias would know that O &#940;&#961;&#967;&#959;&#957;&#964;&#945; &#956;&#959;&#965; &#954;&#945;&#953; &#927; &#920;&#949;&#972;&#962; &#956;&#959;&#965; meant the exact same thing as what is found in john 20.28.

O my Lord
&#927; &#954;&#973;&#961;&#953;&#959;&#962; &#956;&#959;&#965;

http://translation.sensagent.com/ O my Lord /en-el/

Hummmm, wonder why it translates O my Lord different than it does when "O my Lord and O my god" are together? apparently both words mean lord in mod greek. just prob. used in different sayings or ways would be my guess. Wish Illias was here, he could help out a lot, incidently he was at least a nominal christian of the greek orthodox church. What we need in this conversation is a native greek speaker.

 

[Der Alte]

It's become obvious to me now why no one ever translates john 20.28 correctly.
Bing Translator
When it comes to john 20.28 , all bible translators throw greek english dictionaries out the window. When theology and greek grammar collide. Theology always prevails over Greek grammar in Bible translations. John 20.28 is a perfect example.

Hint: the Greek NT says in John 20.28 <<O &#920;&#949;&#972;&#962; &#956;&#959;&#965;>>

So again do the math from the Greek English translation above and tell me what you get.

Or let me put it another way. Which is more important, theology, or what the literal Greek says in the NT as far as translating a verse? Every single bible translator has chosen theology over what the literal Greek says in john 20.28, but I doubt that any of them would admit it or even know it.

You won't. You keep frantically surfing the 'net trying to find something, anything, by anybody, anywhere that will support what you want John 20:28 to say and you have never been able to find anything from any credible scholar that does. So all you are left with are your assumptions/presuppositions. A modern Greek translator is worthless.

I gaurantee you one thing, if when Jesus was before Pilate and Pilate had said "&#959; &#920;&#949;&#972;&#962; &#956;&#959;&#965;. execute Jesus for his words" Every single bible translation in the world would have translated it correctly as "o my God execute Jesus for his words." Cause it would be an instance of theology and grammar being on the same side.

You cannot guarantee any such thing. Anybody can make up examples that given a specific imaginary situation, might prove true or not.

The rule is Theology first, grammar second when translating the bible. I think everyone reading this post who has studied the bible to any great extent knows of other instances of this bible translation rule. Whew this new stuff I'm gettn sometimes I know it's coming from God through my angel friends. but one things fer sure it sure is potent. Someone came to my door while wiriting this post and I was so deep in the spirit I didn't know it till she came to my door.
...

Wrong! Joseph Smith talked to angels too.

Here's another grammar for you to ignore, This is classical Greek, Greek Series for Colleges and Schools, Herbert Weir Smyth, Harvard, 1916.

860 The nominative with the article may stand instead of the vocative: [SIZE="+1"]&#959; &#960;&#945;&#953;&#962; &#913;&#954;&#959;&#955;&#959;&#965;&#952;&#949;&#953;[/SIZE], boy, attend me Ar. Ran. 521, [SIZE="+1"]&#969; &#922;&#965;&#961;&#949; &#954;&#945;&#953; &#959;&#953; &#945;&#955;&#955;&#959;&#953; &#928;&#949;&#961;&#963;&#945;&#953;[/SIZE], Cyrus and the rest of you Persians X. C. 3. 3. 20. p.226

Herbert Weir Smyth, A Greek Grammar for Colleges, chapter 1​

Wonder if the secular scholars who compiled the Greek Series for Colleges and Schools also considered Theology first, grammar second? Got any more specious arguments?

 

[drstevej]

here ya go OzSpen, here is the thread I was talking about. 2ducklow use to be my SN but I changed it to Superfast.

Multiple personality???

 

[Superfast]

oh yea man, this has got to be duckies best thread ever. groovey. Man no doubt it's going down in history as the greatest thread ever in CF Unorthodox. Great Job duckie. I like how duckie exposes all the coverup that scholars engaged in to rob people pf the knowledge that God really said "the Lord of me and the God of me" and not "my lord and my God." Course it don't matter cause nobody wants to know what God said in john 20.28, they all want to know what God did not say in john 20.28 (my lord and my god.) but hey that's life. singning out dude. good job duckie.