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John 15 The Vine

Discussion in 'Non-denominational' started by chuck, Jan 2, 2002.

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  1. chuck

    chuck New Member

    67
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    Hello all,
    I have been on another discussion board and we have been dealing with Jesus' parable of the True Vine. We all agree that Jesus is the True Vine but we have ran into a sorta wall on exactly who the branches are. Some believe that the branches connected to the vine are christians those who have accepted Him as Lord and Savior. Then the others believe that the branches represent all the world not just christians. I thought it would be nice to bring this discussion over here and get other ideas or thoughts on this.

    Thanks and God Bless
    Chuck
     
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  2. bible

    bible RECESSION.[wash my mouth][wash my mouth][wash my m

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    Taoist
    Jhn 15:1 I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.

    Jhn 15:2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every [branch] that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.

    Rev 14:18 And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.

    Rev 14:19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast [it] into the great winepress of the wrath of God.

    I believe the verses above probably refers to Christians rather than nations. The verses refer to vines bearing fruit, and this is what Christians are meant to do. We are meant to abide in Jesus and bear fruit, or we will be pruned away. I remember someone saying how Gentiles have been grafted onto the vine through Jesus as well.
     
  3. chuck

    chuck New Member

    67
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    Hi bible,
    I also believe that the branches being refered to in John 15 are christians also. Let me post acouple responces in the other forum from people that believe the branches are all men.

    1) If a branch is cut away from the vile withers and is burned then this christian lost their salvation
    2) That because all things were created through Him, John 1:3, then these branches are connected to Him.

    Thanks and God Bless
    Chuck
     
  4. rkbo

    rkbo Member

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    "Every branch in me" this is all important to the understanding. Does this mean all professing Christians? The true ones and the not so true ones.

    I believe there are a lot of professing christians that are head Christians and not heart Christians. This is kind of like the wheat and the tares.
    Matt 13:25-26
    25 But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way.
    26 But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also.
    (KJV)

    Matt 13:30
    30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.
    (KJV)

    I believe a "TRUE" Christian will produce fruit. It is a 100% happening. The ones that do produce is pruned and nurtured so they can produce more. The psudo-christian is cut off.

    A true Christian will not loose salvation.
    I Jn 2:19
    19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.
    (KJV)

    See the "no doubt" phrase.


    [This message has been edited by rkbo (edited 02 January 2002).]
     
  5. john316

    john316 Member

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    I love this site! You just learn new things all the time! Thank you all for sharing!
     
  6. psalms 22.3

    psalms 22.3 Member

    282
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    i am the true vine...(christ is the vine)

    ...everybranch IN ME (these branches are in christ so must be beleivers)...

    that beareth not fruit he taketh away
    (they had to be taken away from christ the vine, even these were in the vine as beleivers originally)...

    i am the vine YE ARE THE BRANCHES
    (he was speaking the disciples, who were beleivers, not any who was not)
    it really doesnt make sense if all the branches arent beleivers.
     
  7. psalms 22.3

    psalms 22.3 Member

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    you beleive christians can't loose salvation?

    david didnt beleive that
    and psalms 69.28
    let them be BLOTTED OUT of the book of the book of the living, and not be written with the rightouse.

    god doesnt beleive that
    exodus 32.33
    ...whosoever hath sinned agaisnt me, him will i blot out of my book.

    moses didnt beleive that
    exodus 32.32
    yet now if thou wilt forgive thier sin; and if not, blot me, i pray, out of thy book which thou hast written

    jesus doesnt beleive that
    rev 3.5
    he that overcometh, the same shall i cloth with white raiment; AND I WILL NOT BLOT OUT HIS NAME OUT OF THE BOOK OF LIFE, but i will CONFESS HIS NAME BEFORE MY FATHER, AND BEFORE HIS ANGLES.
    rev.22.19
    and if ANY MAN shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, GOD SHALL TAKE AWAY HIS PART OUT OF THE BOOK OF LIFE, and out of the holycity and from the things which are written in this book.

    you say that lots of christians are really only professing christians, true, and they do fool us sometimes, but they cant ever fool god, and these verses talk about god taking names out of his book, no man could have fooled god into wrighting his name in this book. only true christians get written in this book. the book where the "rightouse" are written psalms 69.28

    the tares in the wheat are false people, yes i agree they exist, but it doenst prove that all christians will be christians forever.

    it cannot be a 100% happening if only "those who overcome" rev 22.19 are confessed before god by jesus, and there are others who didnt overcome who were originally in that book that got blotted out.

    i really dont understand what 1john 2.19 means, becuase if its talking about permanent salvation then it must contradict all the verses i just stated.

    one thing i do know,
    is that this verse is talking about ANTICHRISTS, not regular people.




     
  8. chuck

    chuck New Member

    67
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    Hi psalms 22.3

    Hey in your responce you posted:
    How would you responde to this person thats makes the statement that; "because all things are made through Him then the branches are representing all men not just christians and if the branch does not accept Him it will be cut off wither and burned." This person is stating John 1:3;

    Let me post this as an addon or P.S. LOL
    ---------------------------------------------
    The other discussion board I am at only had myself and this other person in a discussion about this topic. I have given this person alot of the same reasons everyone here is giving for why the branches are christians. Now what I find is instead of studying John 15 on the other board he has gotten into the old ways of "why you can not intrupute scripture correctly" and statments like "I am trying to show you why you are incorrectly interupting scripture". I found this forum and one thing I have come to find, although I have not been here over a month, is almost everyone studies and learns and whats to learn and grow there is not alot of "your wrong because" even if the person is dead wrong in here people bring scripture and they bring testimony to show why and how they believe which I think is awesome. So may God richly bless you all, and in it maybe someone will bring to this topic a great piece of wisdom from the Lord that I can take to the other board.

    God Bless
    Chuck

    [This message has been edited by chuck (edited 03 January 2002).]
     
  9. Hervey

    Hervey Member

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    Hi Chuck:

    Everywhere in the Word of God, God uses figures of speech to "hide" the true meaning. These are called "mysteries" within the Word of God. The parables are just that - "mysteries" -- or "hidden secrets" in God, revealed unto those who have eyes to see and ears to hear.

    When we read that Jesus Christ is the true vine, most of us do not fully take into consideration the full knowledge of the word "vine". A "vine" is nothing more than a "Branch". It is the "main branch", but none the less, it is a "Branch".

    OT Prophets prophesied about the Messiah in many different ways. One way was the "Branch". The word "vine" means - "main branch". So the word "vine" in the gospels means, "main branch". Here are a few verses from the OT pertaining to this "main branch" -- Isa 4:2 -- Jer. 23:5 -- Jer. 33:15 --- Zech. 3:8 ---- Zech. 6:12

    So who are the branches that branch off from the "main branch" ? Well the answer is in the context of chapter 15 of the gospel of John. One must also understand "who" is Jesus Christ talking "too" ?

    John 15:8 tells us that those who are the branches which shoot off of the main branch, are his disciples. So he was talking to "his disciples". Now , here is something else that is very important to remember, and that is what it says in verse 16 of John chapter 15 - "Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should bring forth fruit , etc". The branches were "chosen" , "as" Jesus Christ "choose" his disciples to follow him, and bring forth much fruit. In fact, Jesus Christ choose only 16 "disciples" while he was here on earth. Only 16, and one became a traitor, and his branch ( Judas ) was cast forth and his branch withered, and it was cast into the fire.

    We have learned that "only" the "chosen" become branches of the true vine ( Main Branch ). They are his disciples, which bring forth fruit. His disciples were called "friends" - verse 15 of John chapter 15. His friends, because as Jesus Christ said > "for all things that I have heard of my Father I have made known unto you". So these disciples understood the "mysteries" = "hidden things of God", and that they should bring forth fruit.

    Later on in John chapter 15 and at the end of this chapter, Jesus Christ tells his "disciples" ( branches ) that the "Comforter" that he will send from the Father, which is the "Spirit of truth", which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me" . "And ye also shall bear witness, because ye have been with me from the beginning".

    Who are these disciples ( branches ) ?

    #1 - they are the "chosen"

    #2 - Ony "Christians" are the "Chosen branches" > Many are called, but few are chosen - Matthew 22:14 --- Ephesians 1:4 - "chosen us" from before the foundations fo the world" ------ Acts 11:26 - "And the "disciples" were called "Christians" first in Antioch"

    The "branches" are his "disciples" , who were "chosen" to be called Christians = "Christ IN" - Colossians 1:27.

    So your statement Chuck, that Christians are those who have chosen Jesus Christ as Lord and Saviour, is not what makes one a Christian, who are his "disciples", who are the "branches". Christians - disciples - branches, are chosen from before the foundations of the world. Christians - disciples - branches, are chosen, we do not choose him, he chooses us.

    All those who "choose" to believe are saved, and they are called "followers".

    Love IN Christ - Hervey

    [This message has been edited by Hervey (edited 03 January 2002).]
     
  10. psalms 22.3

    psalms 22.3 Member

    282
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    chuck
    that cant make sense.

    if all people are in him by being created, then how can he remove them and cut them off?
    our spirits will live forever in either heavon or hell, so they will always exist. these creations will always exist.

    so if being IN CHRIST, means to BE CREATED OR EXIST, then hed have to make you NOT EXIST OR UNCREAT YOU, in order for him to remove you (as this verse speaks of him doing).

    AND THAT DOES NOT HAPPEN, YOUR SPIRIT IS ETERNAL AND WILL LIVE FOREVER WITH HIM OR IN HELL.
    it cant mean that.
     
  11. chuck

    chuck New Member

    67
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    Wow,
    Ok lets see, Hervey are you saying that God has chosen a select group, "discipals", which are who Jesus is refering to in John 15? Then all those that choose to accept Christ as thier Savior are "followers"?
    I'm sorry if I am butchering your reply I just want to make sure I am understanding it.
    But if what I have posted above is what you are conveying then what if any part do the followers have in the vine?

    psalms 22.3
    I can understand were this person is coming from. It like this he is saying because we are all made through Him then he is seeing it as everything is connected to Him. Now if someone does not accept Him as their Savior they are cut off they wither and are burnt, not that they cease to exsist but they no long have life but death.
    Like I have stated I do not agree with that I like almost all I have discussed this with believe the branches are christians and not all men.
    One thing I always do is when presented with questions that do stump me or when I feel that a person has made a good claim that goes either intirely or somewhat againest my belief, I go to prayer and ask the Lord to reveil the truth to me and also, like I did here, bring these questions before other christians were together we can talk study and pray over them for God's wisdom [​IMG]

    Thanks everyone for your responces and I'm eager to read more!

    God Bless
    Chuck
     
  12. Hervey

    Hervey Member

    481
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    Hi Chuck:

    You asked >

    "--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Wow,
    Ok lets see, Hervey are you saying that God has chosen a select group, "discipals", which are who Jesus is refering to in John 15? Then all those that choose to accept Christ as thier Savior are "followers"?
    I'm sorry if I am butchering your reply I just want to make sure I am understanding it.
    But if what I have posted above is what you are conveying then what if any part do the followers have in the vine? "

    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Chuck: Yes, a select group , called Christians, who were "chosen" and they are his disciples.

    The followers are the "fruit" . The branches are to bring forth "fruit".

    II Corinthians 5:18 & 19

    "Ministry of reconciliation"

    Love IN Christ - Hervey
     
  13. chuck

    chuck New Member

    67
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    Ok Hervey,
    I wanted to make sure I was o the same wave as you LOL.
    So are disciples (spelled it right that time [​IMG] ) relevent today, are there disciples today or was "discipleship" restricted to the orginal 12?

    Also the fruit in the verse why do you believe it is those that come to accept Christ, and not fruit of the Spirit as in Galatians 5:22&23?

    God Bless
    chuck
     
  14. Hervey

    Hervey Member

    481
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    Hi Chuck:

    First I would like to say, that this is a great conversation about the Word of God ! Love it !

    The fruit of the Spirit is something we as Christians perform. This sets the example for others to follow. Plus the fruit of the Spirit is that which you produce (fruit) in your Christian life, when walking in the Spirit > Galatians 5:25. Galatians 5:22 & 23 "against such there is no law".

    The "fruit" of the vine, are those who were lost, but by the ministry of reconciliation, we can bring those who are lost back to God through the salvation that is offered unto those whom God is calling. They become the fruit of the vine - "main branch", unto Christ.

    Yes, discipleship is most definitely in operation today, and is most relevant. Christians, are those who are "IN Christ" , and they are "his" disciples. They are the "chosen" IN Christ. Christians are those who have received the "Comforter" , which is "Christ IN You".

    Love IN Christ - Hervey

    [This message has been edited by Hervey (edited 03 January 2002).]
     
  15. psalms 22.3

    psalms 22.3 Member

    282
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    but chuck that doesnt make sense.

    the vines are in him.
    if this means to be created by god,
    then to be TAKEN AWAY must mean the opposite of that.
    and that would mean for him to stop your existence.
    his explanation simply does not make sense in this scripture.
    it doesnt make sense.
     
  16. MarkS

    MarkS New Member

    19
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    Speaking of branches,
    Romans 11 speaks of Gentile Christians as being grafted in, after Some of the Natural branches were broken off, which are Natural Israelites.

    We or those that are Gentile Believers are called "grafted in".

    Then there is the warning for us to not to be arrogant of boastful about the 'natural branches' that were broken off because we Do Not support the Root, but the Root supports us.

    Does Romans 11 help in explaining the branches?

    Grafted In<><

     
  17. chuck

    chuck New Member

    67
    +1
    psalms 22.3
    I myself understand this person's ideas about why the branches symbolize all men, I however do not agree with him on it.
    To understand his thought on this you have to look at it this way. We are created by and through Him with a choise to make either to accept Him or to reject Him if we reject Him we then are cut off from Him and we die (spiritually) were as if we were to accept Him we gain life in Him.
    Let me give you alittle more info about this person or at least what I know of him from his posts. He believes everyone starts off with their names written in the book of life but if they do not accept Him their names are blotted out. Now again I do not believe this but if I were looking at things that way then yes I do understand and see how he is believing this.
    I hope I did not just confuse you even more [​IMG]

    marks,
    LOL my discussion with this person went into Romans 11 and then it really went into a spin LOL. But I agree with you I think Romans 11 expands on John 15 and gives us an even greater picture.

    Thanks and God Bless
    chuck
     
  18. psalms 22.3

    psalms 22.3 Member

    282
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    this person beleives that we are all born with our names in it?
    thats simply not true, so that explanation still simply doesnt make sense.

    with his deception it can make sense, with knowlegde of the truth it does not.
     
  19. chuck

    chuck New Member

    67
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    LOL now you getting it psalms 22.3.
    No matter how wrong a person might be you need to listen and to try to see why the person believes the way they do and you will start to understand the reasons.

    I can give you the big example of in my life why I hold to this now. Before I rededicated my life to Christ and asked Him to take control back, I was living the way I wanted to live, and that was about as far away from Him as I could get. My our very close friends one day were approched by Jehovah witnesses and they started asking me about them. I told them they were basically a cult that they were really messed up in their beliefs, and thats were I left it. Well the Jehovah witness spent many hour explaining to our friends not only why they held the truth but also why I and us as christians were following a deception.
    Bottom line is I knew they were a cult I knew their teachings were wrong but I did not know why or even exactly what their teachings were.

    Here is a sorta test for you with the Jehovah witnesses. The scripture that alot of christians will debate with them is John 1:1 in the KJV it reads:
    In their bible do you know how that verse is translated?

    God Bless
    chuck [​IMG]
     
  20. rkbo

    rkbo Member

    272
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    NWT says something like In the begining the word already was and the same was in the begining with God and the word was "a" god...... am I close. Their biggest problem is in John 8:58 where they translate "I am" to "I have been"
    In there pre 1958 edition Bibles they have a foot note as to why they changed this verses and under jn 8:58 they say this (this is due to the perfect indefinit tense of the verb) Guess what there is no such grammer in english or greek
    How'd we get on this subject anyway? I love it.

    [This message has been edited by rkbo (edited 05 January 2002).]
     
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