John 14:1-3 "I will com again" - post-trib, pre-mill, full Rapture, visible

[Jeffwhosoever]

Your theology is built upon the faulty premise of Revelation 20 following Revelation 19 chronologically in time. That is it. No where does Scripture talk about two future resurrections/judgments. That is a Premil invention. The Bible teaches a climactic general resurrection/judgment.

Once I get to Revelation 20 in our bible study, I want to have a thread on the topic. For now, I've misplaced my Steve Gregg book and am upset that I may have to re-order it.

My brothers and sisters in this group, can I ask you to pray for my Mom who went to the ER today with an infection related to a kidney stone?

 

[sovereigngrace]

Once I get to Revelation 20 in our bible study, I want to have a thread on the topic. For now, I've misplaced my Steve Gregg book and am upset that I may have to re-order it.

My brothers and sisters in this group, can I ask you to pray for my Mom who went to the ER today with an infection related to a kidney stone?

Praying bro. Trust your mum receives a healing today.

 

[sovereigngrace]

Hi jeff,

However this brings up the questions -

1. Where are we when the Lord comes in flaming fire?

2. What is the purpose of the Body of Christ?

If you would like to answer, then of course, scriptures please.

Marilyn.

The elect are rescued in total and the wicked are destroyed in total. It is not a hard concept to grasp. It is written throughout the Word of God.

 

[sovereigngrace]

I recognize your view of what the bible indicates but disagree with your view.

I know. The main issue I see is: you have no proof to corroborate your claims. You avoid post after post that exposes the holes in Premil. Premils do that.

 

[Douggg]

I know. The main issue I see is: you have no proof to corroborate your claims. You avoid post after post that exposes the holes in Premil. Premils do that.

When does Jesus rule the nations with a rod of iron; and the same time Christians will given power in the end over the nations?

Revelation 2:26 And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:

27 And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.

Revelation 19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

 

[sovereigngrace]

When does Jesus rule the nations with a rod of iron; and the same time Christians will given power in the end over the nations?

Revelation 2:26 And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:

27 And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.

Revelation 19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

The word means "shepherd." But He is reigning now over His enemies.

 

[Douggg]

The word means "shepherd." But He is reigning now over His enemies.

Perhaps you did not understand the question.

Christians in the end are going to rule the nations with Jesus ruling the nations with a rod of iron. Revelation 2:26-27.

When will the nations beat their swords into plowshares?

 

[Marilyn C]

1. We are here on the earth awaiting his appearing and our change to immortality...aka glorification of the body.

2. Our purpose is to preach the Gospel of reconciliation to a lost world and then the end comes with vengeance on the day we are glorified as 2Thess 1 suggests...


More on Gods Righteous judgment...,

Rom 2
3 But do you suppose this, you foolish person who passes judgment on those who practice such things, and yet does them as well, that you will escape the judgment of God? 4 Or do you think lightly of the riches of His kindness and restraint and patience, not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance?

5 But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself on the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, 6 who will repay each person according to his deeds:

7 to those who by perseverance in doing good seek glory, honor, and immortality, He will give eternal life; 8 but to those who are self-serving and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, He will give wrath and indignation.

Paul is clearly singing the same song of one judgment after Gods patience has run out with the Gospel being fully preached before the end..

Hi Jeff,

Q.1 You have not given any scriptures there. 2 Thess. 1: 10 does does not say we are on earth, for we are in heaven. (Rev. 3: 21)

Q.2 Our ministry is as you said to bring reconciliation to the lost. God could just have individuals to do that. However He has been forming a `Body` over the centuries. God`s word tells us that we are `set` in the Body, (1 Cor.12: 18) and `knit together by what every joint supplies,` (Eph. 4: 16) and from the Head, `nourished and knit together by joints and ligaments, grows with the increase which is from God.` (Col. 2: 19)

A wondrous work of the Lord over the centuries for an eternal purpose that will be outworked in the ages to come, (Eph. 1: 21) Oh the wonder of it, the absolute thrill -

The Lord says -

`It is not the towering ability of individual men that will bring the close of this dispensation to an end, but it will be the ripening, the moulding, the perfecting of a Body of People that will be peculiarly Mine.

There will be no possibility for `flesh` to glory, for all will be interwoven one into the other, and in the center of them will be the fires of Divine Affection, in the center of them will be the seeds of Divine Love, in the center of them will be the deposit of the eternal Purpose of God;

And when that time will come, it will be far greater! - drawing from the earth a people (who have been Mine) in the sense of rapture; it will be the carrying away from the earth of that functional Organ from the realm of Time into its Eternal Setting.`



Prophetic Word (part of) from the Apostolic Convention in Penygroes, 1943.

Prophetic Ministry through Pastor J.D. Eynon.


regards, Marilyn.

 

[sovereigngrace]

Perhaps you did not understand the question.

Christians in the end are going to rule the nations with Jesus ruling the nations with a rod of iron. Revelation 2:26-27.

When will the nations beat their swords into plowshares?

The nations beat their swords into plowshares representing the weapons of war are changed into the implements of peace in Christ.

 

[Douggg]

The nations beat their swords into plowshares representing the weapons of war are changed into the implements of peace in Christ.

No that is not it. Nations will not be making war on one another.

Isaiah 2:4 And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.

When will nations not be making war against other nations?

 

[Jeffwhosoever]

The elect are rescued in total and the wicked are destroyed in total. It is not a hard concept to grasp. It is written throughout the Word of God.

It would help if your dripping condescending remarks were left out of the dialog here. "It is not a hard concept to grasp" is about like telling someone "google is your friend". Why such harsh words in a forum that is Chrisitian only, and we are all struggling to understand Scripture better? Are Christians not supposed to edify each other and lift each other up? Robust debate about your interpretations are one thing, but unnecessary sarcasm does not advance your case much with other people.

 

[Jeffwhosoever]

No that is not it. Nations will not be making war on one another.

Isaiah 2:4 And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.

When will nations not be making war against other nations?

Even the Lord said the signs of his return would include wars and rumors of wars, something the Apostle John repeated in Revelation, in addition to the prophet Isaiah. It's all consistent and everywhere in Scripture.

 

[sovereigngrace]

It would help if your dripping condescending remarks were left out of the dialog here. "It is not a hard concept to grasp" is about like telling someone "google is your friend". Why such harsh words in a forum that is Chrisitian only, and we are all struggling to understand Scripture better? Are Christians not supposed to edify each other and lift each other up? Robust debate about your interpretations are one thing, but unnecessary sarcasm does not advance your case much with other people.

There was no sarcasm involved/intended. I am not sure how you took that. I was voicing a simple opinion. You seem to be looking for offence. If you have no rebuttal then admit that instead of falsely accusing me.

You have yet to present any Scripture to support Pretrib. You, relaying your opinions, is not enough. This is a Bible forum, so let us see your supposed evidence instead of you constantly attacking every view bar Pretrib Premil.

 

[jeffweedaman]

Hi Jeff,

Q.1 You have not given any scriptures there. 2 Thess. 1: 10 does does not say we are on earth, for we are in heaven. (Rev. 3: 21)
regards, Marilyn.

Hi,
Clearly it is those on the earth that afflict us on the earth. The Lord appears from heaven taking vengeance on those who rejected his Gospel.

2Thess
1 Paul, Silvanus, and Timothy,

To the church of the Thessalonians in God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ: 2 Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

 

[Marilyn C]

Hi,
Clearly it is those on the earth that afflict us on the earth. The Lord appears from heaven taking vengeance on those who rejected his Gospel.

2Thess
1 Paul, Silvanus, and Timothy,

To the church of the Thessalonians in God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ: 2 Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

Hi jeff,

Yes the Thessalonians were getting persecuted. We both agree there.

Then we notice that Paul (Silvanus and Timothy) tells them that the Lord will bring vengeance on those that trouble them. We know that the Thessalonians are now in glory, (Heb. 12: 22 & 23) and they can rest for the Lord with His mighty angels will come and bring judgment upon the rebellious.

The Lord will be glorified in His believers in the Body of Christ who will be in heaven while He descends and brings judgment.

Marilyn.

 

[sovereigngrace]

Hi jeff,

Yes the Thessalonians were getting persecuted. We both agree there.

Then we notice that Paul (Silvanus and Timothy) tells them that the Lord will bring vengeance on those that trouble them. We know that the Thessalonians are now in glory, (Heb. 12: 22 & 23) and they can rest for the Lord with His mighty angels will come and bring judgment upon the rebellious.

The Lord will be glorified in His believers in the Body of Christ who will be in heaven while He descends and brings judgment.

Marilyn.

But what you are missing or trying to explain away (to support the error of Prrtrib) is that this is one climactic event where all the wicked are destroyed and all the righteous are glorified. This totally negates Pretrib. In fact, Pretrib has no proof-text in the Bible, just numerous untenable theories.

 

[Douggg]

But what you are missing or trying to explain away (to support the error of Prrtrib) is that this is one climactic event where all the wicked are destroyed and all the righteous are glorified. This totally negates Pretrib. In fact, Pretrib has no proof-text in the Bible, just numerous untenable theories.

But I think you may be saying the rapture/resurrection can not happen before the 70th week begins, i.e. that it is not possible.

That's where I think you are wrong.

.

 

[jeffweedaman]

Hi jeff,

Yes the Thessalonians were getting persecuted. We both agree there.

Then we notice that Paul (Silvanus and Timothy) tells them that the Lord will bring vengeance on those that trouble them. We know that the Thessalonians are now in glory, (Heb. 12: 22 & 23) and they can rest for the Lord with His mighty angels will come and bring judgment upon the rebellious.

The Lord will be glorified in His believers in the Body of Christ who will be in heaven while He descends and brings judgment.

Marilyn.

Not quite Marilyn

The Lord descends (appears), and on that day he eternally separates all who do not know God and obey the Gospel, and he also glorifies all who do know God and obey the Gospel.

. 6 For after all it is only just for God to repay with affliction those who afflict you, 7 and to give relief to you who are afflicted and to us as well when the Lord Jesus will be revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in flaming fire, 8 dealing out retribution to those who do not know God and to those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. 9 These will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, 10 when He comes to be glorified in His saints on that day, and to be marveled at among all who have believed—for our testimony to you was believed.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

Hi spiritual jew,

I did read your other comments, (#80). It seems you think that everyone will have bodies when they come before the great white throne. That is not scriptural. Only those in Christ are given new bodies, the others are only their spirits before the throne.

What are you basing that on? You can't tell me that something is not scriptural and then proceed to not give any scriptural support for your claim. It doesn't work that way.

How do you interpret the following passage:

John 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, 29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

What else will be resurrected for those who will be resurrected unto "damnation" except for their bodies? Their spirits are not dead, so it can't be their spirits that will be resurrected.

As to everyone being before the GWT we need to read ALL of God`s word, especially where it relates to Christ taking our judgment upon Himself.

I gave evidence from other parts of God's Word to support my view. And you didn't respond at all to the points I made using those scriptures. Why is that?

The Body of Christ is NOT judged at the GWT.

Marilyn.

As I said before, the body of Christ will not be condemned at the GWT like unbelievers will be, but that doesn't mean they won't be there. Scripture is clear that all people will be judged according to their works and give an account of themselves (Romans 14:10-12). Do you deny that biblical teaching? That can't be clearly seen in passages like Matthew 25:31-46 which will occur at Christ's second coming.

In Acts 17:30-31 it says that God appointed a day to judge the world. Why do you contradict that by believing in more than one day where God will judge the world? I think the problem here is that you are confusing the word "judge" with the word "condemn". Believers will be judged. But not condemned. And scripture repeatedly indicates that there is only one future judgment day when all people will be judged (believers judged and rewarded and unbelievers judged and condemned). Your belief in more than one judgment day is not taught anywhere in scripture.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

There is a direct relationship to the two judgments. One of the Cross and one of man.

That is my point exactly. There is not a single day judgment, unless the Cross, when it comes to billions of humans. Why place all judgment at the GWT?

It seems that you have chosen to disregard what Acts 17:30-31 says, which is that God has appointed a future day to judge the world. But, you and other premils contradict that by saying He has appointed multiple future days to judge the world (judging some on one day, others on another day, etc.). Premils also have no explanation for passages like Matthew 13:40-43, Matthew 13:47-50 and Matthew 25:31-46 which depict all people being judged on the same day.