John 14:1-3 "I will com again" - post-trib, pre-mill, full Rapture, visible

Spiritual Jew

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Hi Spiritual Jew,

God`s word distinguishes between those two `judgments.`

1. The `bema,` seat. (2 Cor. 5: 10) This this the judgment seat of Christ. It is where rewards are passed out or works done in the flesh, (by self) are burned up. (1 Cor. 3: 11 - 15)

2. The Great White throne judgments. Gk, `krisis,` meaning justice, divine law, accusation, condemnation, damnation, judgment.

So we can see that there is quite a difference between those two.

regards, Marilyn.
I don't see any difference. People are judged for their words in the passages that speak of the judgment seat of Christ as well as Revelation 20:11-15. Why? Because it's the same judgment. The same judgment as Matthew 25:31-46 as well which also portrays people being judged for their works. I believe your doctrinal bias causes you to see a difference.

Which of your 2 judgment days do you think the following passage refers to?

Acts 17:30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent: 31 Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.

Please read my post #80 where I addressed this issue in more detail. The idea that only believers appear before the judgment seat of Christ is false. You referenced 2 Corinthians 5:10, but you need to read Romans 14:10-12 as well.
 
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Spiritual Jew

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The third group is in sheol.

The 4th group is in Paradise.

Neither 3 and 4 are there because of their good or bad deeds.

What verse declares this sheep and goat throne involves a resurrection?
What verse in Matthew 25:31-46 declares that none of the sheep or goats were resurrected? Are you willing to acknowledge that it doesn't specify if some of them were resurrected or not?

We can safely assume that some (most) of them were resurrected because scripture repeatedly teaches that there will be one future judgment of all people at the same time. And Matthew 25:31-46 portrays that judgment. We can even clearly see that Matthew 25:41 refers to the exact same thing as Revelation 20:15 as it relates to unbelievers (they are all cast into everlasting fire), so there's no basis for thinking that Matthew 25:31-46 is a different event than Revelation 20:11-15.

For those who think believers are not present at the great white throne, they are not realizing that Revelation 21 shows us what happens to them at that time. Matthew 25:31-46 indicates that believers (the sheep) will inherit "eternal life" in "the kingdom prepared" for them "from the foundation of the world". What else can that be referring to except for the new heavens and new earth?
 
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Timtofly

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You're being too literal here, as usual. Judgment day does not have to be a 24 hour day. It's the day or time when all of the dead will be raised and all people from all-time will be judged.

You need to read scripture more carefully. Acts 17:30-31 does not refer to a day in the past, but to a day in the future when the world will be judged.

Acts 17:30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent: 31 Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.

It says God now commands all people everywhere to repent. Do you think He has stopped commanding all people to repent? Of course not. So, why are all people commanded to repent? Because God has appointed a FUTURE day at which point "he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained".

That is not a basis for seeing Matthew 25:31-46 as being a different judgment than Revelation 20:11-15. When Revelation 20:11-15 speaks of the dead being brought before the throne to be judged, they are first resurrected. Do you understand that? They are not still dead while they are brought before the throne. How ridiculous would that be? How could they give an account of themselves (see Romans 14:10-12) if they remained dead when brought before the throne of judgment?

Matthew 25:31-46 portrays people being judged for their works just as Revelation 20:11-15 does. There is no basis for seeing them as different judgments. Both speak of unbelievers being cast into everlasting fire (Matthew 25:41, Revelation 20:15). Why would that happen on two separate occasions? No, they both refer to the same event.

Where does it say that none of the sheep and goats were resurrected? It doesn't. You are just assuming that. You are expecting the passage to spell everything out for you. But, that's not how to interpret scripture. We need to look at all of the scriptures regarding judgment day to get all of the details relating to it since each passage regarding judgment day only has some details about it and not all.

That is your assumption, but it doesn't say that the sheep and goat are all alive when they are gathered before the throne.

No, that is not correct. Again, you are not reading the scripture carefully enough.

Romans 14:10 But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ. 11 For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God. 12 So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God.

This passage is not just talking about believers standing before the judgment seat of Christ to give an account of themselves. We know that it's also talking about unbelievers because it refers to Isaiah 45:23 where "it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God". So, we need to look at that verse to see who Paul is talking about as appearing before the judgment seat of Christ and bowing before Him.

Isaiah 45:22 Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else. 23 I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear. 24 Surely, shall one say, in the Lord have I righteousness and strength: even to him shall men come; and all that are incensed against him shall be ashamed.

Notice that those who are against him will also bow before Him and they "shall be ashamed". There is one day of judgment and all people from all-time, including you and me, will appear before the judgment seat of Christ at that time to bow before Him and give an account of ourselves.

It doesn't make sense to not accept the fact that scripture repeatedly refers to a singular judgment day. God has appointed one day to judge the world, not several different days as you believe.

Which of your judgment days is the following referring to:

Acts 17:30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent: 31 Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.

Which of your judgment days is the following referring to:

Matthew 12:36 But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment.

Which of your judgment days is the following referring to:

2 Peter 3:7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.
Matthew 25 spells it out as all Nations. Not the same thing as sheol or the grave.

Heaven and earth pasing away is being too literal? What about a climactic end, is that too literal?
 
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Timtofly

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You need to read scripture more carefully. Acts 17:30-31 does not refer to a day in the past, but to a day in the future when the world will be judged.

Acts 17:30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent: 31 Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.

It says God now commands all people everywhere to repent. Do you think He has stopped commanding all people to repent? Of course not. So, why are all people commanded to repent? Because God has appointed a FUTURE day at which point "he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained".
It is also appointed unto all men, once to die.

They do not all die on a single day, at the end of time.
 
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Spiritual Jew

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Matthew 25 spells it out as all Nations. Not the same thing as sheol or the grave.
The Greek word translated as "nations" in Matthew 25:32 is "ethnos" and it can also mean "people" in general. The sheep and goats are obviously people and not nations. Nations won't inherit eternal life in the kingdom prepared for them from the foundation of the world and nations will not be cast into everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels.

Heaven and earth pasing away is being too literal? What about a climactic end, is that too literal?
No, I'm saying you're taking the phrase "judgment day" too literally. It doesn't have to refer to a 24 hour day. It's a reference to the time or event when all people are judged/rewarded, as portrayed in passages like Acts 17:30-31, Romans 14:10-12, Matthew 25:31-46 and Revelation 20:11 to Revelation 21:5.
 
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Spiritual Jew

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It is also appointed unto all men, once to die.

They do not all die on a single day, at the end of time.
You can't seriously be comparing that to what it says in Acts 17:30-31? Nowhere does it say God appointed a day for all people to die, so that's a bad comparison to make.

Acts 17:31 says that God has appointed a single day to judge the world. So, to believe that God has appointed more than one day or event to judge the world contradicts that verse.
 
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Timtofly

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What verse in Matthew 25:31-46 declares that none of the sheep or goats were resurrected? Are you willing to acknowledge that it doesn't specify if some of them were resurrected or not?

We can safely assume that some (most) of them were resurrected because scripture repeatedly teaches that there will be one future judgment of all people at the same time. And Matthew 25:31-46 portrays that judgment. We can even clearly see that Matthew 25:41 refers to the exact same thing as Revelation 20:15 as it relates to unbelievers (they are all cast into everlasting fire), so there's no basis for thinking that Matthew 25:31-46 is a different event than Revelation 20:11-15.

For those who think believers are not present at the great white throne, they are not realizing that Revelation 21 shows us what happens to them at that time. Matthew 25:31-46 indicates that believers (the sheep) will inherit "eternal life" in "the kingdom prepared" for them "from the foundation of the world". What else can that be referring to except for the new heavens and new earth?
I think this is circular reasoning. These sheep have to be resurrected, because other verses talk about a resurrection.


There was a resurrection at the Cross. They were not resurrected as sheep and goats in Matthew 27. It was the first day of the NT. It was the last day resurrection of those in the OT.
 
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Timtofly

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The Greek word translated as "nations" in Matthew 25:32 is "ethnos" and it can also mean "people" in general. The sheep and goats are obviously people and not nations. Nations won't inherit eternal life in the kingdom prepared for them from the foundation of the world and nations will not be cast into everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels.

No, I'm saying you're taking the phrase "judgment day" too literally. It doesn't have to refer to a 24 hour day. It's a reference to the time or event when all people are judged/rewarded, as portrayed in passages like Acts 17:30-31, Romans 14:10-12, Matthew 25:31-46 and Revelation 20:11 to Revelation 21:5.
No, the nations are the location. It is on earth. It is not out of tombs.

Obviously I accept an ongoing judgment for all in Christ since the Cross. They all have been judged and given permanent incorruptible bodies. I do not hold to a literal single event as you are describing.
 
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Marilyn C

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You are trying to force the Scriptures to support your beliefs. An examination of the usage of the word bema in the New Testament gives us an insight into its real meaning and forbids this differentiation that you make. The word is found twelve times in the New Testament. It refers to a judgment seat in eleven of the twelve mentions and on the other reference it is interpreted “to set on” in Acts 7:5, which makes no allusion to a judgment tribunal.

Hi sg,

A lot of interesting information there, thank you.

However it is not any of those people`s `bema seat` that God is talking about . God is speaking of the `Bema seat of CHRIST.`

And Christ has a different character to any of the others mentioned. And Christ has a different purpose than any of those others.

Marilyn.
 
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Marilyn C

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I don't see any difference. People are judged for their words in the passages that speak of the judgment seat of Christ as well as Revelation 20:11-15. Why? Because it's the same judgment. The same judgment as Matthew 25:31-46 as well which also portrays people being judged for their works. I believe your doctrinal bias causes you to see a difference.

Which of your 2 judgment days do you think the following passage refers to?

Acts 17:30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent: 31 Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.

Please read my post #80 where I addressed this issue in more detail. The idea that only believers appear before the judgment seat of Christ is false. You referenced 2 Corinthians 5:10, but you need to read Romans 14:10-12 as well.

Hi spiritual jew,

I did read your other comments, (#80). It seems you think that everyone will have bodies when they come before the great white throne. That is not scriptural. Only those in Christ are given new bodies, the others are only their spirits before the throne.

As to everyone being before the GWT we need to read ALL of God`s word, especially where it relates to Christ taking our judgment upon Himself. The Body of Christ is NOT judged at the GWT.

Marilyn.
 
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sovereigngrace

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Hi sg,

A lot of interesting information there, thank you.

However it is not any of those people`s `bema seat` that God is talking about . God is speaking of the `Bema seat of CHRIST.`

And Christ has a different character to any of the others mentioned. And Christ has a different purpose than any of those others.

Marilyn.

Says who? Your Dispy Teachers. You have to let the Scriptures speak for themselves. If you do, you will realize that Dispensationalism is wrong. Many of us have abandoned it a long time ago.
 
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Douggg

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Says who? Your Dispy Teachers. You have to let the Scriptures speak for themselves. If you do, you will realize that Dispensationalism is wrong. Many of us have abandoned it a long time ago.
sovereigngrace, you are caught up in the covenant (and new covenant) theology vs dispensationalism theological war....that has been going on since upstart dispensationalism started encroaching on the monopoly that covenant theology (begun in England) once had.

Both are man-made systematic approaches created on how to understand the bible.

There are many futurists that are not dispensationalists, i.e. they don't use the dispensational systematic approach to understanding the bible by dividing the bible up in dispensation time periods. Nor the covenant theology systematic approach.
________________________________________________________

The Great White Throne judgment is for everyone who had not previously partaked in the anytime rapture/resurrection and the resurrection of the martyred great tribulation saints at the start of the millennium in Revelation 20:4-6.




upload_2021-6-25_19-12-22.jpeg
 
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Timtofly

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You can't seriously be comparing that to what it says in Acts 17:30-31? Nowhere does it say God appointed a day for all people to die, so that's a bad comparison to make.

Acts 17:31 says that God has appointed a single day to judge the world. So, to believe that God has appointed more than one day or event to judge the world contradicts that verse.
There is a direct relationship to the two judgments. One of the Cross and one of man.

That is my point exactly. There is not a single day judgment, unless the Cross, when it comes to billions of humans. Why place all judgment at the GWT?

24 For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us:

25 Nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place every year with blood of others;

26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.

27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

There is no single one size fits all judgment for humans.

If so, the verse would read:

And as it is appointed unto men once to die, so after this there is one single judgment for all mankind:

That would nullify the judgment of the Cross. All humans will face judgment, but not all at the same judgment.
 
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Marilyn C

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Says who? Your Dispy Teachers. You have to let the Scriptures speak for themselves. If you do, you will realize that Dispensationalism is wrong. Many of us have abandoned it a long time ago.

Hi sg,

It`s easy to sling shots, but harder to actually address what the person has written from scripture.

Also where have I talked about `Dispensationalism?`



Marilyn.
 
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jeffweedaman

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Hi spiritual jew,



As to everyone being before the GWT we need to read ALL of God`s word, especially where it relates to Christ taking our judgment upon Himself. The Body of Christ is NOT judged at the GWT.

Marilyn.

The Body of Christ receives their reward at the GWT , when Jesus appears in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who are afflicting us.
Paul refers to this as Gods righteous judgment when Christ appears to eternally separate those who rejected his Gospel.
He does this on the day he appears to Glorify all who have ever believed , which is our reward.

2thess 1
3 We ought always to give thanks to God for you, brethren, as is only fitting, because your faith is greatly enlarged, and the love of each one of you toward one another grows ever greater; 4 therefore, we ourselves speak proudly of you among the churches of God for your perseverance and faith in the midst of all your persecutions and afflictions which you endure.

5 This is a plain indication of God’s righteous judgment so that you will be considered worthy of the kingdom of God, for which indeed you are suffering. 6 For after all it is only just for God to repay with affliction those who afflict you, 7 and to give relief to you who are afflicted and to us as well when the Lord Jesus will be revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in flaming fire, 8 dealing out retribution to those who do not know God and to those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. 9 These will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, 10 when He comes to be glorified in His saints on that day, and to be marveled at among all who have believed—for our testimony to you was believed.

11 To this end also we pray for you always, that our God will count you worthy of your calling, and fulfill every desire for goodness and the work of faith with power, 12 so that the name of our Lord Jesus will be glorified in you, and you in Him, according to the grace of our God and the Lord Jesus Christ.
 
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Marilyn C

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The Body of Christ receives their reward at the GWT , when Jesus appears in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who are afflicting us.
Paul refers to this as Gods righteous judgment when Christ appears to eternally separate those who rejected his Gospel.
He does this on the day he appears to Glorify all who have ever believed , which is our reward.
.

Hi jeff,

However this brings up the questions -

1. Where are we when the Lord comes in flaming fire?

2. What is the purpose of the Body of Christ?

If you would like to answer, then of course, scriptures please.

Marilyn.
 
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jeffweedaman

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Hi jeff,

However this brings up the questions -

1. Where are we when the Lord comes in flaming fire?

2. What is the purpose of the Body of Christ?

If you would like to answer, then of course, scriptures please.

Marilyn.

1. We are here on the earth awaiting his appearing and our change to immortality...aka glorification of the body.

2. Our purpose is to preach the Gospel of reconciliation to a lost world and then the end comes with vengeance on the day we are glorified as 2Thess 1 suggests...


More on Gods Righteous judgment...,

Rom 2
3 But do you suppose this, you foolish person who passes judgment on those who practice such things, and yet does them as well, that you will escape the judgment of God? 4 Or do you think lightly of the riches of His kindness and restraint and patience, not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance?

5 But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself on the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, 6 who will repay each person according to his deeds:

7 to those who by perseverance in doing good seek glory, honor, and immortality, He will give eternal life; 8 but to those who are self-serving and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, He will give wrath and indignation.


Paul is clearly singing the same song of one judgment after Gods patience has run out with the Gospel being fully preached before the end..
 
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sovereigngrace

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sovereigngrace, you are caught up in the covenant (and new covenant) theology vs dispensationalism theological war....that has been going on since upstart dispensationalism started encroaching on the monopoly that covenant theology (begun in England) once had.

Both are man-made systematic approaches created on how to understand the bible.

There are many futurists that are not dispensationalists, i.e. they don't use the dispensational systematic approach to understanding the bible by dividing the bible up in dispensation time periods. Nor the covenant theology systematic approach.
________________________________________________________

The Great White Throne judgment is for everyone who had not previously partaked in the anytime rapture/resurrection and the resurrection of the martyred great tribulation saints at the start of the millennium in Revelation 20:4-6.




View attachment 301333

Your theology is built upon the faulty premise of Revelation 20 following Revelation 19 chronologically in time. That is it. No where does Scripture talk about two future resurrections/judgments. That is a Premil invention. The Bible teaches a climactic general resurrection/judgment.
 
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Douggg

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Your theology is built upon the faulty premise of Revelation 20 following Revelation 19 chronologically in time. That is it. No where does Scripture talk about two future resurrections/judgments. That is a Premil invention. The Bible teaches a climactic general resurrection/judgment.
I recognize your view of what the bible indicates but disagree with your view.
 
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Jeffwhosoever

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sovereigngrace, you are caught up in the covenant (and new covenant) theology vs dispensationalism theological war....that has been going on since upstart dispensationalism started encroaching on the monopoly that covenant theology (begun in England) once had.

Both are man-made systematic approaches created on how to understand the bible.

There are many futurists that are not dispensationalists, i.e. they don't use the dispensational systematic approach to understanding the bible by dividing the bible up in dispensation time periods. Nor the covenant theology systematic approach.
________________________________________________________

The Great White Throne judgment is for everyone who had not previously partaked in the anytime rapture/resurrection and the resurrection of the martyred great tribulation saints at the start of the millennium in Revelation 20:4-6.




View attachment 301333

Me for one. I'm not even sure what Dispensationalism is just yet! Thought I don't find an immediate need to say one way or another as to my faith in Scripture being true.
 
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