John 14:1-3 "I will com again" - post-trib, pre-mill, full Rapture, visible

sovereigngrace

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Hi sg,

So are you saying that the believers who are in heaven now, in the General Assembly, (Heb. 12: 22 & 23) will have to be judged? And also the OT saints, the just men, (Heb. 12: 23)?

Doesn`t being `in Christ` exempt up from judgment? Didn`t Christ take our judgment for sin upon Himself?

Marilyn.

Where in Scripture does it talk about "resurrection days" (plural)?
Where in Scripture does it talk about "judgement days" (plural)?


Nowhere!

Acts 17:30-31 reinforces my supposition: “And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent: Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.”

He has not appointed days but "a day" (singular).

NASU says: "He has fixed a day in which He will judge the world in righteousness."

NLT says: "he has set a day for judging the world with justice."

Jesus said in Matthew 16:27, For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.”

It is not just the righteous living and the righteous dead that are raised - as you argue, everyone must be raised because Paul says everyone is judged when Jesus comes and introduce His eternal kingdom.

In 1 Peter 4:1-5 Peter contrasts the righteous and the wicked, and then concludes: Who shall give account to him (Christ) that is ready to judge the quick (or the living) and the dead (1 Peter 4:5).

2 Timothy 4:1 identifies the actual time when Adam's race will stand to account before the throne of God, saying, I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom.”

Adam’s race – in total – is therefore judged “at his (Christ’s) epifaneian (or) appearing and his kingdom.” Everyman that has ever lived from the foundation of the world will be then brought before the final judgment bar of God to account for their earthly lives. This is undoubtedly an all-inclusive general judgment. The persons involved and the occasion referred to could not be clearer.

1 Corinthians 4:5 tells us: “judge nothing before the time, until the Lord come, who both will bring to light the hidden things of darkness, and will make manifest the counsels of the hearts: and then shall every man have praise of God.”

When you place Revelation 20:11-15 together with all the other Second coming passages you see that it correlates beautifully with them. In fact, it mirrors them in remarkable detail. You would search in vain to find any Scripture that corroborates the idea of another judgment day 1000 years after the coming of the Lord. Scripture does not divide the judgment of the righteous and the wicked by a protracted period of time. Premillennialism does.

The reading declares: And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.”

Revelation 22:12 states: “behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.”

Romans 2:5, 6 indicates: “after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God; Who will render to every man according to his deeds.

Romans 2:16 tells us that Christ’s return will be “the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.”

Romans 14:10 asks: “why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.”

Romans 14:12 relates: every one of us shall give account of himself to God.”

Jesus said in Matthew 10:32-33: “Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven. But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.”

Jesus said in Luke 12:8-9: “Also I say unto you, Whosoever shall confess me before men, him shall the Son of man also confess before the angels of God: But he that denieth me before men shall be denied before the angels of God.”

Jesus said in Mark 14:62: ye shall see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.”

Jesus said in Matthew 26:64: “I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.”

Jesus said in Matthew 24:29-31: “Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.”

Jesus said in Matthew 16:25-27: “For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it. For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul? For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.”

The Lord here compares the attitude of the believer to the unbeliever in life. He then relates the stark contrast between the two on judgement day, showing that those that surrender their lives to Christ in this life will experience eternal life on judgement day, whereas those who are selfish and live for themselves in this life will be exposed on judgement day for their folly and rebellion.
 
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Blade

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Thank you OP :) I disagree, things like. "Same Matt 24 rapture-event described by Paul". Compare them again side by side.

Matt 24 All see Christ also IS Christ coming in the clouds with those that had fallen asleep? No He sends His angels to gather and yet seems He forgot to raise the dead first. Paul Thess 4 says Christ comes in the clouds with those that fallen asleep and "the dead in Christ will rise first". No where unless I missed it does it say ALL will see Him. No where does it say He sends His angels to get anyone. Is this what were doing? "They don't say the same exact thing but.. it means the same." This is what man does not God.

Seems some here are taking this very personal. Take a break relax its just text. Praise GOD for the word yet taking verses out of context is never wise. For then we can make HIs word say anything. What was written above and below.. to whom was it addressed to? On and on. Some are pulling this verse that verse out of context then calling it proof.

So since I disagree with some is this where I post verses and then say "ooh look I proved it. I am right your in error". See its kind of hard talking to a wall huh. Know that you are not right many have spent a life time on some of these things and they say "this is what I personally believe". Because .. forget it.. this won't go anywhere.

Its awesome to read what others believe.. we know JESUS CHRIST Is the only way and you believe and love Him.. thats what matters praise GOD!
 
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Marilyn C

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I would say that it is Gods righteous judgment, and all who believe in him already know that nothing negative will happen to them on that day. His righteous judgment for us believers on that day is glorious reward and inheritance.


Rom 8
16 The Spirit Himself testifies with our spirit that we are children of God, 17 and if children, heirs also, heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him so that we may also be glorified with Him.

18 For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory that is to be revealed to us. 19 For the eagerly awaiting creation waits for the revealing of the sons and daughters of God. 20 For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it, in hope 21 that the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God. 22 For we know that the whole creation groans and suffers the pains of childbirth together until now. 23 And not only that, but also we ourselves, having the first fruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting eagerly for our adoption as sons and daughters, the redemption of our body.

The whole of creation will be assembled to witness the opening of the book of life and the revealing of the Sons of God at the GWT.

Hi Jeff,

`And I saw the dead, small and great,....` (Rev. 20: 11)

So are you saying that the believers who are `live` in Christ are part of the `dead?`

regards, Marilyn,
 
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Marilyn C

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Where in Scripture does it talk about "resurrection days" (plural)?
Where in Scripture does it talk about "judgement days" (plural)?


.

Hi sg,

`And I saw the dead, small and great,....` (Rev. 20: 11)

So are you saying that the believers who are `live` in Christ are part of the `dead?`

regards, Marilyn.
 
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sovereigngrace

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Hi sg,

`And I saw the dead, small and great,....` (Rev. 20: 11)

So are you saying that the believers who are `live` in Christ are part of the `dead?`

regards, Marilyn.

The dead in Christ are resurrected. The living are changed.
 
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Spiritual Jew

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Hi sg,

So are you saying that the believers who are in heaven now, in the General Assembly, (Heb. 12: 22 & 23) will have to be judged? And also the OT saints, the just men, (Heb. 12: 23)?

Doesn`t being `in Christ` exempt up from judgment? Didn`t Christ take our judgment for sin upon Himself?

Marilyn.
We (believers) are exempt from condemnation, but not from standing before the judgment seat of Christ along with unbelievers, just as is portrayed in Matthew 25:31-46.

The following passages make it clear that all people will have to stand before the throne of judgment:

Romans 14:10 But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ. 11 For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God. 12 So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God.

2 Corinthians 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

The following passage makes it clear that there is only one judgment day when all people will be judged, not multiple judgment days as premils like yourself believe.

Acts 17:30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent: 31 Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.

That judgment day is referenced in all of the passages I referenced above along with passages like Matthew 12:36, Matthew 13:40-43, Matthew 13:47-50, 2 Peter 3:7 and, yes, Revelation 20:11-15.
 
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keras

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That judgment day is referenced in all of the passages I referenced above along with passages like Matthew 12:36, Matthew 13:40-43, Matthew 13:47-50, 2 Peter 3:7 and, yes, Revelation 20:11-15.
True. The Judgment Day for everyone who has ever lived, will happen after the Millennium.
Until then all the rest of the dead remain in their graves. Revelation 20:5
ONLY those martyrs killed during the 42 month reign of the 'beast', will be raised when Jesus Returns.

The idea of a 'rapture to heaven' of the Church before this, is never prophesied and cannot happen.
 
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sovereigngrace

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Thank you OP :) I disagree, things like. "Same Matt 24 rapture-event described by Paul". Compare them again side by side.

Matt 24 All see Christ also IS Christ coming in the clouds with those that had fallen asleep? No He sends His angels to gather and yet seems He forgot to raise the dead first. Paul Thess 4 says Christ comes in the clouds with those that fallen asleep and "the dead in Christ will rise first". No where unless I missed it does it say ALL will see Him. No where does it say He sends His angels to get anyone. Is this what were doing? "They don't say the same exact thing but.. it means the same." This is what man does not God.

Seems some here are taking this very personal. Take a break relax its just text. Praise GOD for the word yet taking verses out of context is never wise. For then we can make HIs word say anything. What was written above and below.. to whom was it addressed to? On and on. Some are pulling this verse that verse out of context then calling it proof.

So since I disagree with some is this where I post verses and then say "ooh look I proved it. I am right your in error". See its kind of hard talking to a wall huh. Know that you are not right many have spent a life time on some of these things and they say "this is what I personally believe". Because .. forget it.. this won't go anywhere.

Its awesome to read what others believe.. we know JESUS CHRIST Is the only way and you believe and love Him.. thats what matters praise GOD!

Different passages concentrate on different aspects of the Lord's return. Notwithstanding, they all portray a climatic return.
 
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Marilyn C

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We (believers) are exempt from condemnation, but not from standing before the judgment seat of Christ along with unbelievers, just as is portrayed in Matthew 25:31-46.

The following passages make it clear that all people will have to stand before the throne of judgment:

Romans 14:10 But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ. 11 For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God. 12 So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God.

2 Corinthians 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

The following passage makes it clear that there is only one judgment day when all people will be judged, not multiple judgment days as premils like yourself believe.

Acts 17:30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent: 31 Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.

That judgment day is referenced in all of the passages I referenced above along with passages like Matthew 12:36, Matthew 13:40-43, Matthew 13:47-50, 2 Peter 3:7 and, yes, Revelation 20:11-15.

Hi Spiritual Jew,

God`s word distinguishes between those two `judgments.`

1. The `bema,` seat. (2 Cor. 5: 10) This this the judgment seat of Christ. It is where rewards are passed out or works done in the flesh, (by self) are burned up. (1 Cor. 3: 11 - 15)

2. The Great White throne judgments. Gk, `krisis,` meaning justice, divine law, accusation, condemnation, damnation, judgment.

So we can see that there is quite a difference between those two.

regards, Marilyn.
 
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sovereigngrace

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Hi sg,

Yes but they are not judged at the Great White throne, for they are in Christ.

Marilyn.

According to who? Instead of repeating what you have been taught, maybe you would show us in Revelation 20 where those "in Christ" "are not judged at the Great White throne"?
 
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Marilyn C

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According to who? Instead of repeating what you have been taught, maybe you would show us in Revelation 20 where those "in Christ" "are not judged at the Great White throne"?

HI sg,

As I said to spiritual jew a few posts back -

God`s word distinguishes between those two `judgments.`

1. The `bema,` seat. (2 Cor. 5: 10) This this the judgment (bema) seat of Christ. It is where rewards are passed out or works done in the flesh, (by self) are burned up. (1 Cor. 3: 11 - 15)

2. The Great White throne judgments. Gk, `krisis,` meaning justice, divine law, accusation, condemnation, damnation, judgment.

So we can see that there is quite a difference between those two.

Marilyn.
 
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sovereigngrace

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HI sg,

As I said to spiritual jew a few posts back -

God`s word distinguishes between those two `judgments.`

1. The `bema,` seat. (2 Cor. 5: 10) This this the judgment (bema) seat of Christ. It is where rewards are passed out or works done in the flesh, (by self) are burned up. (1 Cor. 3: 11 - 15)

2. The Great White throne judgments. Gk, `krisis,` meaning justice, divine law, accusation, condemnation, damnation, judgment.

So we can see that there is quite a difference between those two.

Marilyn.

Really? The bema seat Pretrib propaganda doesn’t hold water and is presented to devotees to support the false theology that the righteous and the wicked are judged at 2 different thrones separated by 1000 years+. Christ, Paul and any that were charged were brought before the same bema seat as the common criminal.
 
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Marilyn C

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Sorry? The bema seat Pretrib propaganda doesn’t hold water and is presented to devotees to support the false theology that the righteous and the wicked are judged at 2 different thrones separated by 1000 years+. Christ, Paul and any that were charged were brought before the same bema seat as the common criminal.

Hi sg,

However the `bema` seat of Christ is set forth in Corinthians (1 Cor. 3: 11 - 15) and that refers to our rewards. We do NOT see any rewards given out, in Rev. 20: 11 - 15, but judgment and the lake of fire.

So anyone`s name not in the Book of Life, was cast into the Lake of fire. The criteria for judgment was - their works. Note, not salvation through Christ.

But in the `reward` `Bema` seat, we notice that NO ONE is cast into the lake of fire. Those whose works were not received, (by the flesh) were NOT cast into any lake of fire.

`If anyone`s work is burned, he will be saved, yet so as through fire.` (1 Cor. 3: 15)

A huge difference there.

Marilyn.
 
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sovereigngrace

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Hi sg,

However the `bema` seat of Christ is set forth in Corinthians (1 Cor. 3: 11 - 15) and that refers to our rewards. We do NOT see any rewards given out, in Rev. 20: 11 - 15, but judgment and the lake of fire.

So anyone`s name not in the Book of Life, was cast into the Lake of fire. The criteria for judgment was - their works. Note, not salvation through Christ.

But in the `reward` `Bema` seat, we notice that NO ONE is cast into the lake of fire. Those whose works were not received, (by the flesh) were NOT cast into any lake of fire.

`If anyone`s work is burned, he will be saved, yet so as through fire.` (1 Cor. 3: 15)

A huge difference there.

Marilyn.

You are trying to force the Scriptures to support your beliefs. An examination of the usage of the word bema in the New Testament gives us an insight into its real meaning and forbids this differentiation that you make. The word is found twelve times in the New Testament. It refers to a judgment seat in eleven of the twelve mentions and on the other reference it is interpreted “to set on” in Acts 7:5, which makes no allusion to a judgment tribunal.

Out of the eleven references to a judgment seat it is referring to a Roman judgment seat in nine of them. Two of them refer to Pilate’s judgment seat when sentencing Christ (Matthew 27:19, John 19:13), the other seven are found in the book of Acts and see different Roman judges sitting on them. Herod is seen sitting on the bema seat in Acts 12:21. Gallio is seen sitting on the bema seat in Acts 18:12, 16 &17. Festus is seen sitting on the bema seat in Acts 25:6, 10 & 17.

In the final two references it is referring to the final judgment of all mankind in Romans 14:10-11 and 2 Corinthians 5:10.

If Premils would actually take the time to examine what they profess – namely interpreting the Greek word bema as “rewards” throughout the New Testament – they would quickly see how ridiculous their proposal is. But this is what their doctrine requires in order to convince the masses, who also have likely never taken the time to test the contention.

Matthew 27:19 records, “When he (Pilate) was set down on the bema, his wife sent unto him, saying, Have thou nothing to do with that just man: for I have suffered many things this day in a dream because of him.”

Was this a rostrum for athletic type rewards as Premils have been misled into believing for 170 yrs? Yes or no? Every reference in Scripture points to a place of judgment, as it is rightly interpreted from the Greek language.

John 19:13 records, “When Pilate therefore heard that saying, he brought Jesus forth, and sat down in the bema in a place that is called the Pavement, but in the Hebrew, Gabbatha.”

Acts 12:21 records after Peter had broken out of prison, “And upon a set day Herod, arrayed in royal apparel, sat upon his bema, and made an oration unto them.”

Acts 18:12-17 declares, “And when Gallio was the deputy of Achaia, the Jews made insurrection with one accord against Paul, and brought him to the bema, Saying, This fellow persuadeth men to worship God contrary to the law. And when Paul was now about to open his mouth, Gallio said unto the Jews, If it were a matter of wrong or wicked lewdness, O ye Jews, reason would that I should bear with you: But if it be a question of words and names, and of your law, look ye to it; for I will be no judge of such matters. And he drave them from the bema. Then all the Greeks took Sosthenes, the chief ruler of the synagogue, and beat him before the bema. And Gallio cared for none of those things.”

Acts 25:4-11 says, “Festus answered, that Paul should be kept at Caesarea, and that he himself would depart shortly thither. Let them therefore, said he, which among you are able, go down with me, and accuse this man, if there be any wickedness in him. And when he had tarried among them more than ten days, he went down unto Caesarea; and the next day sitting on the bema commanded Paul to be brought. And when he was come, the Jews which came down from Jerusalem stood round about, and laid many and grievous complaints against Paul, which they could not prove. While he answered for himself, Neither against the law of the Jews, neither against the temple, nor yet against Caesar, have I offended any thing at all. But Festus, willing to do the Jews a pleasure, answered Paul, and said, Wilt thou go up to Jerusalem, and there be judged of these things before me? Then said Paul, I stand at Caesar's bema, where I ought to be judged: to the Jews have I done no wrong, as thou very well knowest. For if I be an offender, or have committed any thing worthy of death, I refuse not to die: but if there be none of these things whereof these accuse me, no man may deliver me unto them. I appeal unto Caesar.” And continues in verse 17, “Then all the Greeks took Sosthenes, the chief ruler of the synagogue, and beat him before the bema. And Gallio cared for none of those things.”

What about the last two passages that refer to the end? It is clear that they are referring to a general judgment of all mankind. This is a day that is anticipated for the believer as it is the time of his reward, but a time to be feared for the Christ-rejecter because he will experience the wrath of God.

Romans 14:10-11 says, “for we shall all stand before the bema of Christ. For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.”

The literalists cherry pick what they take literal. Because if we let the Bible speak for itself and take this in a plain straightforward fashion then we could only conclude that this judgment includes both the righteous and the unrighteous.

2 Corinthians 5:10-11 says, “For we must all appear before the bema of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad. Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences.

The bema seat is the one and only judgment seat of Christ where all mankind stands before at the final judgment.

Theological bias may come into some scholars writing but we know the word bema simply means "judgment seat." Strong’s definition tells us it appears in the KJV 12 times and is “judgment seat” 11 times and “throne” 1 time. The “judgment seat” of Christ is one and same great white “throne” of Christ.

All must appear before the one throne on the Judgment Day at the same time. Nowhere in Scripture is there 1,000 yrs placed between the judging of the righteous and the wicked. There is zero corroboration for the Premil opinion of that taken from Revelation 20.

What Scripture, if any (including Revelation 20), do you consider definitely corroborates the Premillennial theory that there are two distinct future judgement days (that will see all mankind stand before Christ to give account for their lives) separated by a literal 1000 years?
 
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sovereigngrace

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Hi sg,

However the `bema` seat of Christ is set forth in Corinthians (1 Cor. 3: 11 - 15) and that refers to our rewards. We do NOT see any rewards given out, in Rev. 20: 11 - 15, but judgment and the lake of fire.

So anyone`s name not in the Book of Life, was cast into the Lake of fire. The criteria for judgment was - their works. Note, not salvation through Christ.

But in the `reward` `Bema` seat, we notice that NO ONE is cast into the lake of fire. Those whose works were not received, (by the flesh) were NOT cast into any lake of fire.

`If anyone`s work is burned, he will be saved, yet so as through fire.` (1 Cor. 3: 15)

A huge difference there.

Marilyn.

That is not true. The wicked receive their due punishment when Jesus comes. This correlates with the GWT judgment. They are the same event. Jesus alludes to the very same concluding day, in Matthew 25:31-34, 41, 46, saying, When the son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: and before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: and he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left. Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world … then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels … and these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.”

One of the great problems many encounter when trying to ascertain the meaning of such parables as this is that they feel compelled to view it through the lens of a well-formulated school of thought rather than letting such a simple allegory speak for itself. Many modern-day end-time students are so indoctrinated with a complicated system of theology that they are impaired from comprehending the meaning and application of many of the parables. They are forced to place a stretched meaning upon the narrative that correlates with their existing dogma. This results in the most amazing and fanciful of meanings to be placed upon the story.

For example, let us establish a few absolutes about this familiar passage before progressing further.

(1) This is referring to the second coming of the Lord Jesus Christ.
(2) The Lord only encounters two types of people when He returns.
(3) These are both judged at His appearing.
(4) One group is portrayed as righteous and is the subject of blessing and reward.
(5) The other group is portrayed as wicked and is the subject of God’s wrath and punished.
(6) They are before the exact same throne at the exact same time.
(7) The good receive eternal life.
(8) The bad obtain eternal punishment.
(9) There is absolutely no mention of, or allowance made for, a third group.
 
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Timtofly

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We (believers) are exempt from condemnation, but not from standing before the judgment seat of Christ along with unbelievers, just as is portrayed in Matthew 25:31-46.

The following passages make it clear that all people will have to stand before the throne of judgment:

Romans 14:10 But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ. 11 For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God. 12 So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God.

2 Corinthians 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

The following passage makes it clear that there is only one judgment day when all people will be judged, not multiple judgment days as premils like yourself believe.

Acts 17:30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent: 31 Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.

That judgment day is referenced in all of the passages I referenced above along with passages like Matthew 12:36, Matthew 13:40-43, Matthew 13:47-50, 2 Peter 3:7 and, yes, Revelation 20:11-15.
Revelation 20:11-15 does not count. Time does not even exist. There is no day in this context.

God judged the world in righteousness on the Cross. If there is a coming judgment, it will be in comparison to man's righteousness to that of God on the Cross.

Some interpret Matthew 25 when Christ sets up His throne and judges the nations as this judgement seat. No where does Jesus say, these sheep and goats are dead. At this point Jesus is calling sheep and goats out of the Nations for people alive on the earth. The dead are not going to stand in judgment in Jerusalem before this earthly throne, for their rejection of the Atonement on the Cross. Jesus is very explicit that these humans did not even know what they did to deserve being a sheep and a goat.

Two things here: these people still physically alive. They were not there by choice.


These people are brought out of the nations, not tombs.

The judgment seat of Christ is for the redeemed to stand before Christ and recieve a reward. The we is not the universal world for all of Adam's descendants. This was written to the redeemed or at least those claiming to be redeemed. For rewards, any work that is not burned up will come forth as gold.

There are separate judgments. Even different locations. 2 Corinthians 5 is in Paradise for the redeemed. Christ has set on that throne since the 1st century. Matthew 25 is for Israel on earth. This is set up at the Second Coming. The GWT is between reality where time and space do not even exist. Even Revelation 20:4 is where the church sits in judgment over those beheaded in the 42 months given to Satan. Lumping these altogether does not make sense.
 
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Timtofly

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Sorry? The bema seat Pretrib propaganda doesn’t hold water and is presented to devotees to support the false theology that the righteous and the wicked are judged at 2 different thrones separated by 1000 years+. Christ, Paul and any that were charged were brought before the same bema seat as the common criminal.
No.

Christ has been sitting on a throne of judgment since 30AD. That is where He reigns from now. The redeemed stand before that throne day and night. John saw them as "souls under the alter" symbolism for already having been judged.

This is not the throne set up in Matthew 25. Not that the same throne cannot come down and now reign from physical Jerusalem. Kind of hard to set up a throne in Jerusalem, if Jerusalem and the earth no longer exist.

The throne of the Lord God is based on the earth already. The earth is the footstool.
 
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Timtofly

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(9) There is absolutely no mention of, or allowance made for, a third group.
The third group is in sheol.

The 4th group is in Paradise.

Neither 3 and 4 are there because of their good or bad deeds.

What verse declares this sheep and goat throne involves a resurrection?
 
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Revelation 20:11-15 does not count. Time does not even exist. There is no day in this context.
You're being too literal here, as usual. Judgment day does not have to be a 24 hour day. It's the day or time when all of the dead will be raised and all people from all-time will be judged.

God judged the world in righteousness on the Cross.
You need to read scripture more carefully. Acts 17:30-31 does not refer to a day in the past, but to a day in the future when the world will be judged.

Acts 17:30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent: 31 Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.

It says God now commands all people everywhere to repent. Do you think He has stopped commanding all people to repent? Of course not. So, why are all people commanded to repent? Because God has appointed a FUTURE day at which point "he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained".

Some interpret Matthew 25 when Christ sets up His throne and judges the nations as this judgement seat. No where does Jesus say, these sheep and goats are dead.
That is not a basis for seeing Matthew 25:31-46 as being a different judgment than Revelation 20:11-15. When Revelation 20:11-15 speaks of the dead being brought before the throne to be judged, they are first resurrected. Do you understand that? They are not still dead while they are brought before the throne. How ridiculous would that be? How could they give an account of themselves (see Romans 14:10-12) if they remained dead when brought before the throne of judgment?

At this point Jesus is calling sheep and goats out of the Nations for people alive on the earth. The dead are not going to stand in judgment in Jerusalem before this earthly throne, for their rejection of the Atonement on the Cross. Jesus is very explicit that these humans did not even know what they did to deserve being a sheep and a goat.
Matthew 25:31-46 portrays people being judged for their works just as Revelation 20:11-15 does. There is no basis for seeing them as different judgments. Both speak of unbelievers being cast into everlasting fire (Matthew 25:41, Revelation 20:15). Why would that happen on two separate occasions? No, they both refer to the same event.

Two things here: these people still physically alive.
Where does it say that none of the sheep and goats were resurrected? It doesn't. You are just assuming that. You are expecting the passage to spell everything out for you. But, that's not how to interpret scripture. We need to look at all of the scriptures regarding judgment day to get all of the details relating to it since each passage regarding judgment day only has some details about it and not all.

These people are brought out of the nations, not tombs.
That is your assumption, but it doesn't say that the sheep and goat are all alive when they are gathered before the throne.

The judgment seat of Christ is for the redeemed to stand before Christ and recieve a reward. The we is not the universal world for all of Adam's descendants. This was written to the redeemed or at least those claiming to be redeemed. For rewards, any work that is not burned up will come forth as gold.
No, that is not correct. Again, you are not reading the scripture carefully enough.

Romans 14:10 But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ. 11 For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God. 12 So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God.

This passage is not just talking about believers standing before the judgment seat of Christ to give an account of themselves. We know that it's also talking about unbelievers because it refers to Isaiah 45:23 where "it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God". So, we need to look at that verse to see who Paul is talking about as appearing before the judgment seat of Christ and bowing before Him.

Isaiah 45:22 Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else. 23 I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear. 24 Surely, shall one say, in the Lord have I righteousness and strength: even to him shall men come; and all that are incensed against him shall be ashamed.

Notice that those who are against him will also bow before Him and they "shall be ashamed". There is one day of judgment and all people from all-time, including you and me, will appear before the judgment seat of Christ at that time to bow before Him and give an account of ourselves.

There are separate judgments. Even different locations. 2 Corinthians 5 is in Paradise for the redeemed. Christ has set on that throne since the 1st century. Matthew 25 is for Israel on earth. This is set up at the Second Coming. The GWT is between reality where time and space do not even exist. Even Revelation 20:4 is where the church sits in judgment over those beheaded in the 42 months given to Satan. Lumping these altogether does not make sense.
It doesn't make sense to not accept the fact that scripture repeatedly refers to a singular judgment day. God has appointed one day to judge the world, not several different days as you believe.

Which of your judgment days is the following referring to:

Acts 17:30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent: 31 Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.

Which of your judgment days is the following referring to:

Matthew 12:36 But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment.

Which of your judgment days is the following referring to:

2 Peter 3:7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.
 
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