John 14:1-3 "I will com again" - post-trib, pre-mill, full Rapture, visible

jeffweedaman

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Hi Jeff,

However John 5 was talking about `those in the graves.`

Marilyn.

I beg to differ as the time " now is " ... , for whosoever would believe will have the assurance of not coming into judgment. This is our blessed hope.
This has been ongoing from the moment he uttered those words.


Jn 5
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life


This is the first resurrection (transference from death to life ) we experience as new born babes and the most important resurrection from death to life we will get acquainted with.


Participate in this reality now and you will in no way come into the judgment of the second death at the GWT.

25 Truly, truly, I say to you, an hour is coming and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live.



The Incomparable Christ
13 For He rescued us from the domain of darkness, and transferred us to the kingdom of His beloved Son, 14 in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins.

15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation: 16 for by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones, or dominions, or rulers, or authorities—all things have been created through Him and for Him. 17 He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together. 18 He is also the head of the body, the church; and He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, so that He Himself will come to have first place in everything. 19 For it was the Father’s good pleasure for all the fullness to dwell in Him, 20 and through Him to reconcile all things to Himself, whether things on earth or things in heaven, having made peace through the blood of His cross.

He is the first resurrection we partake of first.
 
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sovereigngrace

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Hi SG,

And scriptures for that?

Marilyn.

Both the wicked and the righteous are brought before the same throne of God for the final judgment (Matthew 13:24-30, 39-43, 47-50, 25:14, 19-30 Acts 17:31 Romans 2:5-16, 2 Timothy 4:1-8 Jude 1:14-15 Revelation 11:18, 20:12-13, 22:12).
 
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Douggg

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= I will "come again" -- the rapture event
John 14:1-3 - “Let not your heart be troubled; you believe in God, believe also in Me. 2 In My Father’s house are many mansions; if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself; that where I am, there you may be also.”

=========================
Christ's full description: Matt 24 rapture-event
Matt 24:
3
..what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?”

post-trib Rapture - every eye sees it
Matt 24:29 “But immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory. 31 And He will send forth His angels with a great trumpet blast, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.

Same Matt 24 rapture-event described by Paul
1 Thess 4:13-18
13 But we do not want you to be uninformed, brothers and sisters, about those who are asleep, so that you will not grieve as indeed the rest of mankind do, who have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose from the dead, so also God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep through Jesus. 15 For we say this to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive, who remain, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore, comfort one another with these words.



And destruction of all the wicked
2 Thess 1: 6
For after all it is only right for God to repay with affliction those who afflict you, 7 and to give relief to you who are afflicted, along with us, when the Lord Jesus will be revealed from heaven with His mighty angels 8 in flaming fire, dealing out retribution to those who do not know God, and to those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. 9 These people will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, 10 when He comes to be glorified among His saints on that day, and to be marveled at among all who have believed


=====================================
Wicked armies slain - and "The rest were killed" -- at this Matt 24, 1Thess 4 rapture event.
Rev 19
11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse, and He who sat on it is called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and wages war. 12 His eyes are a flame of fire, and on His head are many crowns; and He has a name written on Him which no one knows except Himself. 13 He is clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God. 14 And the armies which are in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white and clean, were following Him on white horses. 15 From His mouth comes a sharp sword, so that with it He may strike down the nations, and He will rule them with a rod of iron; and He treads the wine press of the fierce wrath of God, the Almighty. 16 And on His robe and on His thigh He has a name written: “KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.”
17 Then I saw an angel standing in the sun, and he cried out with a loud voice, saying to all the birds that fly in midheaven, “Come, assemble for the great feast of God, 18 so that you may eat the flesh of kings and the flesh of commanders, the flesh of mighty men, the flesh of horses and of those who sit on them, and the flesh of all people, both free and slaves, and small and great.”

19 And I saw the beast and the kings of the earth and their armies, assembled to make war against Him who sat on the horse, and against His army.
20 And the beast was seized, and with him the false prophet who performed the signs in his presence, by which he deceived those who had received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image; these two were thrown alive into the lake of fire, which burns with brimstone. 21 And the rest were killed with the sword which came from the mouth of Him who sat on the horse, and all the birds were filled with their flesh.

=========================================
So that means: Persecution of the saints ends at the Rev 19 coming of Christ - when He raptures the saints and destroys the wicked.

Dan 7:24 As for the ten horns, out of this kingdom ten kings will arise; and another will arise after them, and he will be different from the previous ones and will humble three kings. 25 And he will speak against the Most High and wear down the saints of the Highest One, and he will intend to make alterations in times and in law; and they will be handed over to him for a time, times, and half a time. 26 But the court will convene for judgment, and his dominion will be taken away, annihilated and destroyed forever. 27 Then the sovereignty, the dominion, and the greatness of all the kingdoms under the whole heaven will be given to the people of the saints of the Highest One; His kingdom will be an everlasting kingdom, and all the empires will serve and obey Him.’
Bob, you have the wrong set of verses for the rapture in Matthew 24.

Matthew 24:15-31 is a message to the Jews, i.e them in Judaea, who will end up going through the great tribulation. For them to survive, they should flee to the mountains right away when they see the abomination of desolation standing in the holy place, i.e. on the temple mount. [are you living Judaea? no. the message is not to you]

Matthew 24:32-51 is a message to Christians about avoiding the great tribulation by the rapture. It is the same message as in Luke 21:34-36, be watching.

Do you call Jesus - Lord? yes. Although you know not the day nor hour your Lord comes - you learn the parable of the fig tree generation, knowing what generation - because you are reading the new testament believing what it says. v32-v51 is to you, the Jews don't care right now. They put no value in the new testament. And the Jews presently don't consider Jesus their Lord.
.
It's real simple if a person gets those two sets of verses straight. One set for the Jews, v15-v31 (to be preached to them by the two witnesses). The second set is for us Christians, v32-v51, who right now believe in Jesus as our Lord, be watching for Jesus, escape the great tribulation via the rapture..

Timing wise, the anytime rapture view makes up for the shortfalls in the traditional rapture views.


upload_2021-6-21_22-8-31.jpeg
 
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Jeffwhosoever

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Where is your 7 year trib and 3rd coming mentioned there?

The Old Testament and the New. Daniel 2-12, the Olivet Discourse of Matthew, Mark, and Luke, and the entire book of Revelation, plus the writings of Paul in Thessalonians. Doug has laid it all out many times in great detail with graphics.

Not to mention dozens of books written by people with doctorates in Theology.
 
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sovereigngrace

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The Old Testament and the New. Daniel 2-12, the Olivet Discourse of Matthew, Mark, and Luke, and the entire book of Revelation, plus the writings of Paul in Thessalonians. Doug has laid it all out many times in great detail with graphics.

Not to mention dozens of books written by people with doctorates in Theology.

Obviously, you have nothing! Once again you hide behind the opinions of man. That has been your form on end-time discussion. Doug has presented nothing to prove Pretrib, or ever can. He has been rebutted numerous times by numerous posters on this board. Your sweeping generalities continue because you know there is nothing in the Book. That is Pretrib in a nutshell! For you to give me hard Scripture would mean you have to justify it. But it is not taught anywhere.

If you are so confident: please quote actual text instead of your broad non-specific references and then we can test the validity of your claims. Until you do: your attacks on the other positions mean nothing. You can only avoid the obvious for so long!
 
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Douggg

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Doug has presented nothing to prove Pretrib, or ever can. He has been rebutted numerous times by numerous posters on this board.

I am anytime rapture view. The rapture could happen pre-70th week, although it is not a certainty.

Responded to vs rebutted are not the same thing.
 
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Marilyn C

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I have showed Scripture that proves the first resurrection occurred 2000 years ago. There are numerous scriptural proof-texts to corroborate that there is one final future judgment of mankind at the GWT in Rev 20.

· There is nowhere in Scripture that talk about "resurrection days" (plural).
· There is nowhere in Scripture that talk about "judgement days" (plural).

Hi SG,

Yes we all agree that Jesus was resurrected.

Now are you saying that the Body of Christ will be at the Great White throne and judged on their works?

`...those who have done good to resurrection of life...` (John 5: 29)

Marilyn.
 
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Marilyn C

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I beg to differ as the time " now is " ... , for whosoever would believe will have the assurance of not coming into judgment. This is our blessed hope.
This has been ongoing from the moment he uttered those words.


Jn 5
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life


This is the first resurrection (transference from death to life ) we experience as new born babes and the most important resurrection from death to life we will get acquainted with.


Participate in this reality now and you will in no way come into the judgment of the second death at the GWT.

Hi Jeff,

I agree that the believers in the Body of Christ will not come into judgment at the GWT. We will be with the Lord on His throne in the third, heaven. (Rev. 3: 21)

However our experience of receiving Christ`s new life is not `resurrection,` in regards to our bodies.

regards, Marilyn.
 
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Marilyn C

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Both the wicked and the righteous are brought before the same throne of God for the final judgment (Matthew 13:24-30, 39-43, 47-50, 25:14, 19-30 Acts 17:31 Romans 2:5-16, 2 Timothy 4:1-8 Jude 1:14-15 Revelation 11:18, 20:12-13, 22:12).

Hi sg,

Thank you for all those scriptures revealing that the Lord will judge.

So my question to you, if you believe you will be there, what `good works` will you produce to save yourself?

`And the dead were judged according to their works by the things which were written in the books.` (Rev. 20: 12)

Marilyn.
 
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jeffweedaman

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Hi Jeff,



However our experience of receiving Christ`s new life is not `resurrection,` in regards to our bodies.

regards, Marilyn.

Hi.
Very true Marilyn. That comes later at his coming.
But first we must partake of his resurrection , that results in our born again experience of passing out of darkness / death , into his life. We do have a new life now right? Thats the power of his resurrection.

You do not need to be bodily resurrected to possess the assurance of not being hurt by the second death judgment as that time now is.

So Rev 20 and the first resurrection is all about Jesus resurrection, and the hope he gave us in Jn 5 for those that believe and therefore partake of his victory over death.
 
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sovereigngrace

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Hi SG,

Yes we all agree that Jesus was resurrected.

Now are you saying that the Body of Christ will be at the Great White throne and judged on their works?

`...those who have done good to resurrection of life...` (John 5: 29)

Marilyn.

The first resurrection was Christ 2000 years ago. When He comes again He raises and judges the dead and judge the living and the dead.
 
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sovereigngrace

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Hi sg,

Thank you for all those scriptures revealing that the Lord will judge.

So my question to you, if you believe you will be there, what `good works` will you produce to save yourself?

`And the dead were judged according to their works by the things which were written in the books.` (Rev. 20: 12)

Marilyn.

Works determine our reward (30, 60 or 100-fold), not our salvation.
 
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Marilyn C

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The first resurrection was Christ 2000 years ago. When He comes again He braises and judges the dead and judge the living and the dead.

Hi SG,

Glad you also believe that our works do not determine our salvation. So where do you believe believers go when they die?

Marilyn.
 
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sovereigngrace

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Hi again sg,

So do you see Matt. 25: 31 - 46 as the Great white throne judgment?

Marilyn.

Of course! Scripture teaches only one future judgment where in all mankind is judged. Christ will judge both the living and the dead. Who is exempt from that all-inclusive description?
 
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sovereigngrace

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Hi.
Very true Marilyn. That comes later at his coming.
But first we must partake of his resurrection , that results in our born again experience of passing out of darkness / death , into his life. We do have a new life now right? Thats the power of his resurrection.

You do not need to be bodily resurrected to possess the assurance of not being hurt by the second death judgment as that time now is.

So Rev 20 and the first resurrection is all about Jesus resurrection, and the hope he gave us in Jn 5 for those that believe and therefore partake of his victory over death.

Amen! This corresponds to what Jesus taught in John 11:25, saying, “I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die."

This is speaking of the resurrection life that can be enjoyed in this life through faith.

Revelation 20 is talking about the salvation that results from being "in Christ." It is our participation in the resurrection life, whether in life or death. Those in view are souls who have passed on "in Christ," but have defeated death and Hades because of the first resurrection of Christ. They now reign in Christ.
 
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Marilyn C

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Of course! Scripture teaches only one future judgment where in all mankind is judged. Christ will judge both the living and the dead. Who is exempt from that all-inclusive description?

Hi sg,

So are you saying that the believers who are in heaven now, in the General Assembly, (Heb. 12: 22 & 23) will have to be judged? And also the OT saints, the just men, (Heb. 12: 23)?

Doesn`t being `in Christ` exempt up from judgment? Didn`t Christ take our judgment for sin upon Himself?

Marilyn.
 
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jeffweedaman

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Hi sg,

So are you saying that the believers who are in heaven now, in the General Assembly, (Heb. 12: 22 & 23) will have to be judged? And also the OT saints, the just men, (Heb. 12: 23)?

Doesn`t being `in Christ` exempt up from judgment? Didn`t Christ take our judgment for sin upon Himself?

Marilyn.

I would say that it is Gods righteous judgment, and all who believe in him already know that nothing negative will happen to them on that day. His righteous judgment for us believers on that day is glorious reward and inheritance.


Rom 8
16 The Spirit Himself testifies with our spirit that we are children of God, 17 and if children, heirs also, heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him so that we may also be glorified with Him.

18 For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory that is to be revealed to us. 19 For the eagerly awaiting creation waits for the revealing of the sons and daughters of God. 20 For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it, in hope 21 that the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God. 22 For we know that the whole creation groans and suffers the pains of childbirth together until now. 23 And not only that, but also we ourselves, having the first fruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting eagerly for our adoption as sons and daughters, the redemption of our body.

The whole of creation will be assembled to witness the opening of the book of life and the revealing of the Sons of God at the GWT.
 
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