John 14:1-3 "I will com again" - post-trib, pre-mill, full Rapture, visible

keras

Writer of studies on Bible prophecy
Feb 7, 2013
13,698
2,492
82
Thames, New Zealand
Visit site
✟293,592.00
Country
New Zealand
Faith
Pentecostal
Marital Status
Married
Beyond just that, it would have to be a temple that scripture would refer to as "the temple of God". Would a physical temple built by unbelieving Jews be something that scripture would refer to as "the temple of God"? No way.
2 Thessalonians 2:4 ....he even enthrones himself in God's Temple, claiming to be God.
Also in Daniel 9:27....he will put a stop to the sacrifices and offerings....

Proofs that there will be a new Temple, the one Ezekiel 40 to 46 comprehensively describes, in Jerusalem and dedicated to God.
It will not be built by 'unbelieving Jews', but by the faithful Christian peoples, a seen by John in Revelation 7:9.
 
Upvote 0

Spiritual Jew

Amillennialist
Site Supporter
Oct 12, 2020
7,394
2,496
MI
✟308,043.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
To be Israel, you need to both be a descendent of Jacob, and also keep with the law. Torah is full of laws where if a person transgresses the law, they are cut off.
Is this your interpretation of Romans 9:6-8? If so, I couldn't disagree more. That passage says nothing about Jacob or keeping the law as being a requirement to be part of the Israel of which not all of Israel are part.

So. you can outwardly be a Jew, but inwardly not be a Jew.
Right. What does Romans 2:29 indicate that identified a Jew who is one inwardly?

We're grafted into the family of God, but we are not Israel.
We are spiritual Israel. I'm not saying where you're differentiating between the two Israels in Romans 9:6-8. Can you describe what is required to be part of each of the two Israels described there?

Replacement theology teaches that Gentile Christians replace the descendants of Abraham and that God is "done" with Israel as a nation and people.
Then that isn't what I believe and isn't what a lot of people who get accused of believing in replacement theology believe. I believe that Jew and Gentile Christians ARE the descendants of Abraham as it concerns the promises made to Abraham. It says so right here:

Galatians 3:16 The promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. Scripture does not say “and to seeds,” meaning many people, but “and to your seed,” meaning one person, who is Christ....26 So in Christ Jesus you are all children of God through faith, 27 for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.

I don't believe that, I believe Arbraham, Isaac, and Jacob will be welcoming in literal blood relatives into heaven, and that there are still promises to keep to those 3 involving the land they were promised and that they'd always have descendants. The promise to David that His descendant would always rule is kept in Jesus, but I don't think that's all God will do with Abraham's bloodline.
I'm not a dispensationalist, I think that the same thing that saved us is going to save Israel, but, I think that Israel is back as a nation, and that the prophecies involving Israel involve that literal nation of Jews and the remnant of them that'll be saved, rather than applying those prophecies to the church.
Why do you not allow passages like Galatians 3:16-29 to determine your understanding of the promises made to Abraham?
 
Upvote 0

Spiritual Jew

Amillennialist
Site Supporter
Oct 12, 2020
7,394
2,496
MI
✟308,043.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
2 Thessalonians 2:4 ....he even enthrones himself in God's Temple, claiming to be God.
How is God's temple described elsewhere in the New Testament in terms of its identity after Christ rendered the physical temple desolate (Matt 23:37-38)?

Also in Daniel 9:27....he will put a stop to the sacrifices and offerings....
Jesus did that long ago.

Hebrews 10:5 Therefore, when Christ came into the world, he said: “Sacrifice and offering you did not desire, but a body you prepared for me; 6 with burnt offerings and sin offerings you were not pleased.
7 Then I said, ‘Here I am—it is written about me in the scroll—I have come to do your will, my God.’”
8 First he said, “Sacrifices and offerings, burnt offerings and sin offerings you did not desire, nor were you pleased with them”—though they were offered in accordance with the law. 9 Then he said, “Here I am, I have come to do your will.” He sets aside the first to establish the second. 10 And by that will, we have been made holy through the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

Jesus set aside the first (referring to the old covenant and its animal sacrifices and offerings) to establish the second (the new covenant that He established with His blood).

Proofs that there will be a new Temple, the one Ezekiel 40 to 46 comprehensively describes, in Jerusalem and dedicated to God.
It will not be built by 'unbelieving Jews', but by the faithful Christian peoples, a seen by John in Revelation 7:9.
There is no mention of anyone building a temple in Revelation 7:9. Do you understand that the temple described in Ezekiel 40 to 46 would have animal sacrifices and offerings performed there for the purpose of making "atonement for the Israelites"?

Ezekiel 45:15 Also one sheep is to be taken from every flock of two hundred from the well-watered pastures of Israel. These will be used for the grain offerings, burnt offerings and fellowship offerings to make atonement for the people, declares the Sovereign Lord. 16 All the people of the land will be required to give this special offering to the prince in Israel. 17 It will be the duty of the prince to provide the burnt offerings, grain offerings and drink offerings at the festivals, the New Moons and the Sabbaths—at all the appointed festivals of Israel. He will provide the sin offerings grain offerings, burnt offerings and fellowship offerings to make atonement for the Israelites.

How can you possibly think that would happen in the future when Jesus Christ already made His once for all sacrifice for the atonement of sins long ago? The animal sacrifices foreshadows Christ's sacrifice (Hebrews 10:1), so their purpose was fulfilled long ago.

What many don't realize is that the Ezekiel prophecy was conditional upon the repentance of the ancient Israelites, but they did not repent.

Ezekiel 43:10 “Son of man, describe the temple to the people of Israel, that they may be ashamed of their sins. Let them consider its perfection, 11 and if they are ashamed of all they have done, make known to them the design of the temple—its arrangement, its exits and entrances—its whole design and all its regulations and laws. Write these down before them so that they may be faithful to its design and follow all its regulations.
 
Upvote 0

Spiritual Jew

Amillennialist
Site Supporter
Oct 12, 2020
7,394
2,496
MI
✟308,043.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Okay since you seem to completely miss this..
again
1 Corinthians was written to a church, 40 years before Revelation was written.
Was Paul meaning to utterly confuse the church for 40 years until they'd be able to read Revelation to learn about the 7 trumpet judgements?
You have to understand the pupose of the letters is to communicate, not obscure.
You wouldn't need Revelation to understand 1 Corinthians.
but in your interpretation, you would, you would not be able to understand what Paul meant by "last trump" until 40 years later, IF you got a copy of that book.
I am not saying they would have understood that he was speaking of the seventh trumpet mentioned in a book that hadn't been written yet. I'm saying that the last trumpet is just that. It's the last one. The last prophetic trumpet. Which we can now see from the book of Revelation is the seventh trumpet.

In what sense is the last trumpet the actual LAST trumpet in your view? How do you think Paul's readers of his letter to the church in Corinth would have understood a reference to the last trumpet?
 
Upvote 0

Jamdoc

Watching and Praying Always
Oct 22, 2019
7,485
2,334
43
Helena
✟206,984.00
Country
United States
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Single
Is this your interpretation of Romans 9:6-8? If so, I couldn't disagree more. That passage says nothing about Jacob or keeping the law as being a requirement to be part of the Israel of which not all of Israel are part.

Right. What does Romans 2:29 indicate that identified a Jew who is one inwardly?

We are spiritual Israel. I'm not saying where you're differentiating between the two Israels in Romans 9:6-8. Can you describe what is required to be part of each of the two Israels described there?

Then that isn't what I believe and isn't what a lot of people who get accused of believing in replacement theology believe. I believe that Jew and Gentile Christians ARE the descendants of Abraham as it concerns the promises made to Abraham. It says so right here:

Galatians 3:16 The promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. Scripture does not say “and to seeds,” meaning many people, but “and to your seed,” meaning one person, who is Christ....26 So in Christ Jesus you are all children of God through faith, 27 for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Why do you not allow passages like Galatians 3:16-29 to determine your understanding of the promises made to Abraham?

Equal in the eyes of God, but we don't have the land promises, we're also not beholden to the same covenant of laws as Israel. we don't have to get circumcised or abstain from pork.
 
Upvote 0

Spiritual Jew

Amillennialist
Site Supporter
Oct 12, 2020
7,394
2,496
MI
✟308,043.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Equal in the eyes of God, but we don't have the land promises, we're also not beholden to the same covenant of laws as Israel. we don't have to get circumcised or abstain from pork.
No one needs to get circumcised or abstain from pork anymore, so I don't know what your point is there. And speaking of land promises, do you understand how Abraham understood the land promises? Have you ever read this:

Hebrews 11:8 By faith Abraham, when called to go to a place he would later receive as his inheritance, obeyed and went, even though he did not know where he was going. 9 By faith he made his home in the promised land like a stranger in a foreign country; he lived in tents, as did Isaac and Jacob, who were heirs with him of the same promise. 10 For he was looking forward to the city with foundations, whose architect and builder is God. 11 And by faith even Sarah, who was past childbearing age, was enabled to bear children because she considered him faithful who had made the promise. 12 And so from this one man, and he as good as dead, came descendants as numerous as the stars in the sky and as countless as the sand on the seashore. 13 All these people were still living by faith when they died. They did not receive the things promised; they only saw them and welcomed them from a distance, admitting that they were foreigners and strangers on earth. 14 People who say such things show that they are looking for a country of their own. 15 If they had been thinking of the country they had left, they would have had opportunity to return. 16 Instead, they were longing for a better country—a heavenly one. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for he has prepared a city for them.

Can you see here that Abraham and the other OT saints dwelt in the promised land "like a stranger in a foreign country"? That is because they were not looking for just a piece of land on the earth. Instead, "they are looking for a country of their own" and "they were longing for a better country--a heavenly one". Why are you looking for them to inherit a piece of earthly land when they themselves were looking for something better than that?
 
Upvote 0

keras

Writer of studies on Bible prophecy
Feb 7, 2013
13,698
2,492
82
Thames, New Zealand
Visit site
✟293,592.00
Country
New Zealand
Faith
Pentecostal
Marital Status
Married
Can you see here that Abraham and the other OT saints dwelt in the promised land "like a stranger in a foreign country"? That is because they were not looking for just a piece of land on the earth. Instead, "they are looking for a country of their own" and "they were longing for a better country--a heavenly one". Why are you looking for them to inherit a piece of earthly land when they themselves were looking for something better than that?
Abraham and all the people of God who have died since Adam, will rise on the Last Day, at the GWT Judgment. They will be given Eternal life and will live in the New Jerusalem. Revelation 21:1-7
But before that, before Jesus Returns for His Millennium reign, we Christians will go to and live in all of the holy Land. Ezekiel 34:11-16, Isaiah 35, Romans 9:24-26
Out inheritance and our great privilege. Isaiah 65:9, Psalms 69:32-36, +
We will be the new owners; Jeremiah 8:10
We will find the title deed and confirm our possession of all of the holy Land; Jeremiah 32:14-15
 
Upvote 0

Timtofly

Well-Known Member
Jun 29, 2020
9,318
568
56
Mount Morris
✟124,959.00
Country
United States
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Why do you interpret the entire book chronologically? The birth of Christ and His ascension (Rev 12:5) are mentioned AFTER the sounding of the seventh trumpet (Rev 11:15-18). Do you think Christ was born and ascended to heaven after the sounding of the seventh trumpet? I'm sure you don't. So, with that in mind, it would be foolish to think that the events written about in the book all occur chronologically.

I didn't say that all 7 trumpets already sounded. Yet again you have misrepresented my view, as you have done so many times before.

You are misinterpreting the 70th week. It is Christ who established the new covenant with His blood and put an end to the animal sacrifices during the 70th week. The confirmation of the new covenant continued with the preaching of the gospel first in Jerusalem and the rest of Israel. There is no basis whatsoever for inserting a huge gap within the 70th week. The prophecy had to do with 70 continuous weeks (of years, so 490 years) with no gaps.
Why do you think that John put the birth of Jesus Christ in? You use that as the only excuse to claim it is not chronological. I claim it as the reason Jesus Christ is the 70th week.

The life of Christ inserted into the narrative gives you the reason for the gap. The gap was not for Himself. The gap was for the fulness of the Gentiles. For John to go out of the way, and really not mention the church at all in the whole narrative, yet is sending this account to 7 churches, does not give you a single clue? How can you miss that point, but think the book cannot be in chronological order?

Should John have declared to the 7 churches there would be almost a two thousand year gap in events to prove to this current, seemingly clueless generation, that it was about them, so posters today can stop claiming it is not about them?

Do you think the 70AD event was only about the Jews themselves, or did it pertain directly to this gap that no one wants to admit has happened?

Then explain why Gabriel did not specify that when Messiah was cut off, that was the stopping point of the sacrifices. Do you think verse 27 itself refers to this large gap? It seems you do not. If it does not, why object to the gap at all. If you object that a temple is built, and verse 27 is not referring to that time, and verse 27 is not a 1900 year gap, what point is verse 27 making?

It is not a 7 year peace treaty. It is not a 1900 year gap. It can only be the days of the sounding of the 7th Trumpet. Days that is symbolic of a week long celebration. Except the celebration that starts in chapter 11, turns into a woe when Satan is cast out of heaven and very angry his time is short.

Gabriel correctly identified this woe as stopping the activity of this future temple, and gives us desolation, that John claims is the 42 months given to Satan, the FP, and the beast. Because the days of the sounding are interrupted in the narrative by chapter 13, after John inserts his version of Christ being the 70th week mentioned by Gabriel in Daniel 9. Chapter 12 is the correct chronological order of the 70th week. John places chapter 12 in the correct position to make the best sense of Daniel 9. The only thing John does not do is explain how this is all reconciled to the rest of the NT like the OD and the writings of Paul. John is clearly pulling from Daniel, except one tiny detail of the OD.

I also think most Jews would dismiss Revelation immediately if they thought Daniel was involved, and Jesus' teachings. They seem to reject that either are important. Revelation, though sent to 7 churches, favors the nation of Israel by not directly mentioning the church. It is about them mostly. At least chapter 12 points to that notion. Even the OD is heavily about Israel and not the church. Jesus gives us no hint of a 1991 year gap.
 
Upvote 0

Timtofly

Well-Known Member
Jun 29, 2020
9,318
568
56
Mount Morris
✟124,959.00
Country
United States
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Though you are correct, that's a bit different than now. A temple needs to be built now and pronto, if any of these things are ever going to come to pass in a literal sense before Christ returns. For all we know, Christ might return within the next 10 years or less, for example.
If Jesus is setting up his throne in a temple, why does the temple have to be built first? Does it sit empty waiting for the throne? I still think many are looking for the wrong temple. If Jesus is sitting on a throne, there is no need for the Holy of Holies. Why would disbelieving Jews build a temple that would have space for a throne instead of the Holy of Holies? I doubt many here has even thought why there needs to be a Holy of Holies when there will be a throne instead. The veil was rent at the Cross. The Messiah is coming back as Prince. A throne will replace the part God only came down once a year. Christ is coming down permanently as Prince. The Messiah part was permanent at the first century coming.
 
Upvote 0

Timtofly

Well-Known Member
Jun 29, 2020
9,318
568
56
Mount Morris
✟124,959.00
Country
United States
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
The Holy Spirit knows all and inspired both Paul and John. How else should we understand the LAST trumpet if it's not actually the LAST prophetic trumpet?
The Trumpets are not prophecies. They are soundings that will actually happen. The nation of Israel had Trumpets built, even for the tabernacle. They were used in the conquest of Jericho. The Trump of God is a literal Trumpet. The archangel is a literal being. I think it is Gabriel. Gabriel can sound the Trump of God at any time announcing the Coming. Then Gabriel will do the honors of being the last sounding as well. The Trump is still the Trumpet currently in Heaven. The Holy Spirit let Paul know it was the Trumpet to both sound at the Second Coming, and will sound again after the other 6 Trumpets and 7 Thunders. Paul did not say after 6 Trumpets and 7 Thunders. He just states the same Trump of God is used. Did Paul know it is Gabriel and could not tell us, or did the Holy Spirit just say the last trumpet without any other specifics. Why did Paul even write differently to the Thessalonians than to the Corinthians?

16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

This is the same event, not two different times. Yes, the same Trump, can be used more than once. Thessalonians is more in line with the OD. That does not mean Corinthians is not, but more in line with Revelation.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Timtofly

Well-Known Member
Jun 29, 2020
9,318
568
56
Mount Morris
✟124,959.00
Country
United States
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
So, you are using other scripture to aid your understanding of Revelation 11. You acted as if it was explained clearly in Revelation itself, which it is not. And you know that because you had to refer to Zechariah 4 for more understanding. How is that different than me using other scripture that talks about the temple of God being the church/collective body of Christ to
John did not say the book of Revelation is about the church nor the body of Christ, the temple of God. The verse does not say the Revelation of the church, the temple of God. This is the Revelation of Jesus Christ to the 7 churches.

John made it more personal by pointing out specifics about each church being written to. This is to relate each church to Christ. Then John literally leaves the churches behind and transitions to Christ Himself.
 
Upvote 0

Timtofly

Well-Known Member
Jun 29, 2020
9,318
568
56
Mount Morris
✟124,959.00
Country
United States
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Who exactly is being replaced in "replacement theology" and who replaces them?

How do you interpret this passage:

Romans 9:6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel: 7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. 8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

Can you discern that there are two Israels mentioned here? What is the difference between them? Who are part of the Israel of which not all of Israel are part?
Not two Israels. One Israel and in distinction children of God. The children of God did not replace Israel. The children of God are not the physical descendants of Abraham. Some children of God are from Abraham. Some children of God are even from Israel. Many children of God are Gentile, neither from Abraham nor Israel.

The seed of Abraham even Israel did not replace the children of God, nor did the children of God replace any of the seed of Abraham. The children of God are the redeemed from Adam's descendants. Abraham and Jacob were chosen for a particular reason. It was not to replace the children of God. Nor did God change His plan at the Cross and replace Abraham and Israel with the church.
 
Upvote 0

Spiritual Jew

Amillennialist
Site Supporter
Oct 12, 2020
7,394
2,496
MI
✟308,043.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Abraham and all the people of God who have died since Adam, will rise on the Last Day, at the GWT Judgment. They will be given Eternal life and will live in the New Jerusalem. Revelation 21:1-7
Agree.

But before that, before Jesus Returns for His Millennium reign, we Christians will go to and live in all of the holy Land. Ezekiel 34:11-16, Isaiah 35, Romans 9:24-26
Out inheritance and our great privilege. Isaiah 65:9, Psalms 69:32-36, +
We will be the new owners; Jeremiah 8:10
We will find the title deed and confirm our possession of all of the holy Land; Jeremiah 32:14-15
Completely disagree. Why would we want to go and live in a place where we, like Abraham and those other OT saints, would just be strangers in a foreign country? No, like Abraham and those other OT saints, are looking for something better than that. We are looking forward to the new heavens and new earth, as Peter said (2 Peter 3:13), not some relatively small piece of land. I'd like to know how all Christians could even fit there, anyway. The logistics would be a complete nightmare.
 
Upvote 0

keras

Writer of studies on Bible prophecy
Feb 7, 2013
13,698
2,492
82
Thames, New Zealand
Visit site
✟293,592.00
Country
New Zealand
Faith
Pentecostal
Marital Status
Married
Completely disagree. Why would we want to go and live in a place where we, like Abraham and those other OT saints, would just be strangers in a foreign country? No, like Abraham and those other OT saints, are looking for something better than that. We are looking forward to the new heavens and new earth, as Peter said (2 Peter 3:13), not some relatively small piece of land. I'd like to know how all Christians could even fit there, anyway. The logistics would be a complete nightmare.
To live in the holy Land is our destiny.
The NH, NE does not come until after the Millennium.

This will happen soon after the forthcoming Lord’s Day of vengeance and wrath:

Ezekiel 20:34 By My outpoured wrath, I shall bring you out from the nations and gather you from wherever you are dispersed.

Isaiah 41:8-10 Have no fear, My people - the descendants of My friend, Abraham.
I have not rejected you, now I summon you from the four corners of the earth; I am with you and will give you strength.
Galatians 3:29

But not all of those whom God knows are actual Israelites, Amos 9:9, will be allowed to enter the holy Land:
Ezekiel 20:35-38 I shall bring you out of the nations and I shall state My case against you. I shall make you pass under the Rod of Judgement. Just as I did in the wilderness of Egypt, so I shall indict you. I will count you as you enter, but those who revolt and rebel, I shall take them from the lands where they now live, but they will not set foot in the holy Land. Thus you will know I am the Lord.

These are plainly stated prophesies, not yet fulfilled, but surely will be.
 
Upvote 0

Timtofly

Well-Known Member
Jun 29, 2020
9,318
568
56
Mount Morris
✟124,959.00
Country
United States
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Can you see here that Abraham and the other OT saints dwelt in the promised land "like a stranger in a foreign country"? That is because they were not looking for just a piece of land on the earth. Instead, "they are looking for a country of their own" and "they were longing for a better country--a heavenly one". Why are you looking for them to inherit a piece of earthly land when they themselves were looking for something better than that?
I agree that Abraham was looking as a child of God for a different country.

However Abraham also was promised land on earth. As pointed out, not all of Abraham's offspring would be children of God. Some would be a remnant to live on earth.

Not all of Israel would be children of God. Some would partake of an earthly kingdom.

If you declared your views not to be that of replacement, then you have to accept there is also a part of Abraham and Israel that will remain on earth. Otherwise you have replaced those who stay on earth with those who do not.
 
  • Like
Reactions: keras
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Spiritual Jew

Amillennialist
Site Supporter
Oct 12, 2020
7,394
2,496
MI
✟308,043.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Why do you think that John put the birth of Jesus Christ in? You use that as the only excuse to claim it is not chronological. I claim it as the reason Jesus Christ is the 70th week.
An excuse? You have to be joking. It looks like you are upset that I easily proved that your belief that the entire book is chronological is false. And don't forget that His ascension to heaven is mentioned there in Revelation 12 as well. That certainly didn't happen after the seventh trumpet, either. But, go ahead and be stubborn and interpret the whole book chronologically if you want. It's your choice.
 
Upvote 0

Spiritual Jew

Amillennialist
Site Supporter
Oct 12, 2020
7,394
2,496
MI
✟308,043.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Not two Israels. One Israel and in distinction children of God. The children of God did not replace Israel. The children of God are not the physical descendants of Abraham. Some children of God are from Abraham. Some children of God are even from Israel. Many children of God are Gentile, neither from Abraham nor Israel.
As usual, your post is filled with just your words and no scripture to support them. What do you think Paul was saying when he said "For not all who are descended from Israel are Israel"? Or, as your preferred CJB translation puts it: "For not everyone from Isra’el is truly part of Isra’el".

How can you not see that Paul is contrasting 2 different Israels there? Think about it. If he's only talking about the nation of Israel as you believe, then how can it possibly make sense to say that not everyone from the nation of Israel is truly part of the nation of Israel? That makes no sense at all. Of course, everyone from the nation of Israel is part of the nation of Israel, so he couldn't possibly have been saying that not everyone from the nation of Israel is part of the nation of Israel.

Why are you so against the idea of a spiritual Israel (consisting of believers) in contrast to the earthly nation of Israel (consisting of both believers and unbelievers), anyway? You're so against it that you can't even accept it when it's clearly taught in a passage like Romans 9:6-8.

The seed of Abraham even Israel did not replace the children of God, nor did the children of God replace any of the seed of Abraham. The children of God are the redeemed from Adam's descendants. Abraham and Jacob were chosen for a particular reason. It was not to replace the children of God. Nor did God change His plan at the Cross and replace Abraham and Israel with the church.
No one is saying anything about anyone being replaced, so please stop that nonsense. Do you understand that there is the natural seed of Abraham, but also the spiritual seed of Abraham?

How do you interpret this passage:

Galatians 3:16 The promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. Scripture does not say “and to seeds,” meaning many people, but “and to your seed,” meaning one person, who is Christ....26 So in Christ Jesus you are all children of God through faith, 27 for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Guojing

Well-Known Member
Apr 11, 2019
11,844
1,311
sg
✟217,441.00
Country
Singapore
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
As usual, your post is filled with just your words and no scripture to support them. What do you think Paul was saying when he said "For not all who are descended from Israel are Israel"? Or, as your preferred CJB translation puts it: "For not everyone from Isra’el is truly part of Isra’el".

How can you not see that Paul is contrasting 2 different Israels there? Think about it. If he's only talking about the nation of Israel as you believe, then how can it possibly make sense to say that not everyone from the nation of Israel is truly part of the nation of Israel? That makes no sense at all. Of course, everyone from the nation of Israel is part of the nation of Israel, so he couldn't possibly have been saying that not everyone from the nation of Israel is part of the nation of Israel.

Why are you so against the idea of a spiritual Israel (consisting of believers) in contrast to the earthly nation of Israel (consisting of both believers and unbelievers), anyway? You're so against it that you can't even accept it when it's clearly taught in a passage like Romans 9:6-8.

No one is saying anything about anyone being replaced, so please stop that nonsense. Do you understand that there is the natural seed of Abraham, but also the spiritual seed of Abraham?

How do you interpret this passage:

Galatians 3:16 The promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. Scripture does not say “and to seeds,” meaning many people, but “and to your seed,” meaning one person, who is Christ....26 So in Christ Jesus you are all children of God through faith, 27 for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.

There are people who make a distinction between the Body of Christ and Israel, as we have discussed many times before.

You are unable to make that same distinction, hence you come to a different doctrine.
 
Upvote 0

Timtofly

Well-Known Member
Jun 29, 2020
9,318
568
56
Mount Morris
✟124,959.00
Country
United States
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
An excuse? You have to be joking. It looks like you are upset that I easily proved that your belief that the entire book is chronological is false. And don't forget that His ascension to heaven is mentioned there in Revelation 12 as well. That certainly didn't happen after the seventh trumpet, either. But, go ahead and be stubborn and interpret the whole book chronologically if you want. It's your choice.
I never claimed Revelation 12 had to force the chronology of the whole book. Chapter 12 is the only chapter that contains an historical foot note. The rest of the book is in chronological order. You claim every other chapter is not chronological based on one chapter. That is an excuse. I never said chapter 12 has to fit into the rest of the book, to make chapter 19, 20, and 21 chronological. When I point out 19, 20, and 21 are, you bring up chapter 12, your only excuse to cause 19, 20, and 21 to be twisted chronologically, to prove your eschatology.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Timtofly

Well-Known Member
Jun 29, 2020
9,318
568
56
Mount Morris
✟124,959.00
Country
United States
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
As usual, your post is filled with just your words and no scripture to support them. What do you think Paul was saying when he said "For not all who are descended from Israel are Israel"? Or, as your preferred CJB translation puts it: "For not everyone from Isra’el is truly part of Isra’el".

How can you not see that Paul is contrasting 2 different Israels there? Think about it. If he's only talking about the nation of Israel as you believe, then how can it possibly make sense to say that not everyone from the nation of Israel is truly part of the nation of Israel? That makes no sense at all. Of course, everyone from the nation of Israel is part of the nation of Israel, so he couldn't possibly have been saying that not everyone from the nation of Israel is part of the nation of Israel.

Why are you so against the idea of a spiritual Israel (consisting of believers) in contrast to the earthly nation of Israel (consisting of both believers and unbelievers), anyway? You're so against it that you can't even accept it when it's clearly taught in a passage like Romans 9:6-8.

No one is saying anything about anyone being replaced, so please stop that nonsense. Do you understand that there is the natural seed of Abraham, but also the spiritual seed of Abraham?

How do you interpret this passage:

Galatians 3:16 The promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. Scripture does not say “and to seeds,” meaning many people, but “and to your seed,” meaning one person, who is Christ....26 So in Christ Jesus you are all children of God through faith, 27 for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.
If Israel cannot be Israel, how can those not of Israel be Israel? I don't add thoughts to the verse. Just read it as written.
 
Upvote 0