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John 14:1-3 "I will com again" - post-trib, pre-mill, full Rapture, visible

Discussion in 'Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum' started by BobRyan, Jun 19, 2021.

  1. Jamdoc

    Jamdoc Watching and Praying Always

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    at the same time the rebuttal is to you keras, because I don't think it's Christian's place nor our covenant, to build a temple in Jerusalem until Jesus returns to lead us.
    It'll be Jews, because the temple and sacrifices is the old covenant system.
     
  2. keras

    keras Writer of studies on Bible prophecy

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    What you and many others, fail to see is the removal of the Jews, ALL the current inhabitants of ALL of the holy land, in the forthcoming Lord's Day of fiery wrath. Isaiah 4:3-4, Isaiah 6:11-13, Isaiah 22:14, Ezekiel 21:1-7, Amos 1 & 2:1-5, Jeremiah 10:18

    It will be the Israelites of God, His faithful Christian peoples, the Overcomers for Him, who will build the new Temple in Jerusalem.
    Why God wants sacrifices again is a question only He can answer. But the Bible is clear: there will be a Temple, Gods glory will be in it, Ezekiel 43:1-4 and the peoples will make offerings in it. Isaiah 56:1-8, Ezekiel 20:40-41, Zechariah 14:16-21
     
  3. Jamdoc

    Jamdoc Watching and Praying Always

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    We are not Israel.
    again with the replacement theology. a dangerous position with an unfaithful God that breaks covenants.
     
  4. Timtofly

    Timtofly Well-Known Member

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    Why would Paul state a last Trumpet without giving a reason for more Trumpets? The last Trumpet is the feature Trumpet. Paul did not say the last of the soundings. He said the Trumpet that does the last sounding. That Gabriel comes with the Trump of God is the point. The last Trumpet can sound at the Second Coming at the 6th Seal and still be the last Trumpet to sound just as well.

    Revelation 8 gives us this:

    And when he had opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven about the space of half an hour. And I saw the seven angels which stood before God; and to them were given seven trumpets.

    Why are we told that Jesus brings the Trump of God, that last Trump, yet here we see 7 angels with 7 equal trumpets? Is one of these Trumpets the Trump of God, and are these archangels?

    Any one who claims Paul is talking about these 7 angels and trumpets has to prove one of these trumpets is the Trump of God, and one of these angels is an archangel or all of them.

    Jesus brings the angels with Him. It does not give how many, but all of them could come. According to most interpretations chapter 19 has nothing to do with the 7th Trumpet at all. Neither do any of the 7 vials. I have consistently pointed out how the 7th Trumpet sounds, and yet it is too confusing to put the dots together?

    The 7th Trumpet has to be the Trump of God. The archangel should also be Gabriel. Gabriel broke the story to Daniel about the 70 weeks. Gabriel was the one who heralded the first coming. Is Gabriel one of these angels or the archangel mentioned by Paul? I do not see any of the points contradicting the 6th Seal as being the Second Coming, nor does it involve twisting the book of Revelation into a chronological pretzel.
     
  5. keras

    keras Writer of studies on Bible prophecy

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    The Hebrew word 'israel', simply means an 'overcomer for God.
    That is what we Christians are, we have overcome Satan by our acceptance of the Atoning sacrifice of Jesus and by keeping His Commandments.
    We do not 'replace' anyone, we join; are grafted into the Tree of Life, the one the Jews have been cut off from, but can also be grafted back into by faith. Romans 11:10-24

    What exactly is dangerous about that; Jamdoc?
    God will keep His Covenants with the descendants of Abraham; the ones who have kept the faith that Abraham evinced and who have proved worthy of the name of Israelite.
     
  6. Jamdoc

    Jamdoc Watching and Praying Always

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    What's dangerous is the idea that the covenants with Israel are broken and that the Church is the "true" "spiritual" Israel that all the promises are made to. That's a covenant breaking God.
    The promises to Israel are not to the Church, consisting mostly of Gentiles but to the Remnant of Abraham's blood descendants that will be saved. If you believe that God broke His covenant with Abraham, then what prevents God from breaking all the promises made to us? That's the danger.
    Before you say "well the Jews broke the covenant themselves"
    We're no better.
    The simple truth is that our salvation, and the covenants God establishes with people, are not based on their goodness or faithfulness or obedience, but rather based on God's goodness and God's character. We're fallible, God is not. If any covenant was based on our ability to keep it? We'd be in real trouble. Because we're just dust.
    Will Israel be taken into captivity again? Assuredly, but the difference in our beliefs on that are that you believe it will before the construction of the third temple, where I believe it will happen after the midpoint, after the 3rd temple is defiled. The Great Tribulation involves persecution of the Jews, taking them into captivity, killing them, while a remnant escapes.....
    and then the Great Tribulation turns to the Christians.

    Revelation 12:
    The woman in the vision is Israel, being a reference to one of Joseph's dreams in Genesis 37, the second dream.
    first it's the Jews who get persecuted by Satan.
    then Christians.
     
  7. Timtofly

    Timtofly Well-Known Member

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    How can you reconcile that the 7 Trumpets cannot sound until after the silence? If the Second Coming happens before these angels start to sound how did we go back in time in these verses? What type of literary convention convinces you of a change in time from the end back to the beginning?

    The 70 weeks can not be over. Only Christ can bring the 70th week to completion. John claims it is the 7th Trumpet. Can you convince people that all 7 Trumpets already sounded?

    7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

    Is there another completion other than the 70 weeks for Israel? What else is God beholding to Israel that is to be completed at the sounding of the 7th Trumpet?
     
  8. keras

    keras Writer of studies on Bible prophecy

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    Here is the truth; God has scattered the House of Israel among the nations. Only He knows who and where they are.
    The House of Judah has remained a visible entity and they currently occupy a small part of the holy Land. But the remain in apostasy and the prophesies tell us they will be removed and only a remnant will survive.
    Jeremiah 12:14, Zephaniah 1:1-18, Romans 9:27, +

    Soon after this clearing of all the holy land, Israel, Judah and all the grafted in; faithful gentiles will come together and live in the holy Land.
    The fulfilment of God's Promises to the Patriarchs and the culmination of God's Plan for the holy Land. Isaiah 49:19, Isaiah 66:12-14, Psalms 106:1-5
     
  9. Spiritual Jew

    Spiritual Jew Well-Known Member Supporter

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    There's no need for a physical temple anymore. The physical temple and the animal sacrifices foreshadowed Christ (Heb 10:1). They served their purpose already.

    Wrong. He already has one and it's us!

    2 Cor 6:16 What agreement is there between the temple of God and idols? For we are the temple of the living God. As God has said:“I will live with them and walk among them, and I will be their God, and they will be my people.”

    And I find your beliefs rather strange. That is no secret.
     
  10. Spiritual Jew

    Spiritual Jew Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Why do you interpret the entire book chronologically? The birth of Christ and His ascension (Rev 12:5) are mentioned AFTER the sounding of the seventh trumpet (Rev 11:15-18). Do you think Christ was born and ascended to heaven after the sounding of the seventh trumpet? I'm sure you don't. So, with that in mind, it would be foolish to think that the events written about in the book all occur chronologically.

    I didn't say that all 7 trumpets already sounded. Yet again you have misrepresented my view, as you have done so many times before.

    You are misinterpreting the 70th week. It is Christ who established the new covenant with His blood and put an end to the animal sacrifices during the 70th week. The confirmation of the new covenant continued with the preaching of the gospel first in Jerusalem and the rest of Israel. There is no basis whatsoever for inserting a huge gap within the 70th week. The prophecy had to do with 70 continuous weeks (of years, so 490 years) with no gaps.
     
  11. Jamdoc

    Jamdoc Watching and Praying Always

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    Doesn't matter if there's a need or not.
    You know there wasn't a "need" for peace offerings under the old system either, not like the twice daily regular sacrifices sin offerings and other prescribed offerings. That was an offering freely given in thanksgiving or for fulfilling a vow or just.. you wanted to offer something to the Lord in praise. The requirements for the peace offerings weren't as strict as other offerings, the animal could be male or female where other offerings had to be male, and only part of the offering was burned the rest was eaten.
    If someone wants to build a temple, or a church, dedicated to the Living God, does it not honor Him?
    Now the sacrifices and believing they atone for sin is wrong, but it is not incorrect to build God a house of prayer.

    and the fact remains, that whether it's needed or not, Jews want to build a temple.
    and they will.
    they don't even read the book of Hebrews so they wouldn't listen to you telling them they don't need a temple.
     
  12. DavidPT

    DavidPT Well-Known Member

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    Until I see it with my own eyes, that unbelieving Jews have actually started rebuilding a temple where the last one stood, in the meantime I'm going to continue to reject interpretations that are proposing a literal temple gets built by unbelieving Jews in the future. That is the only reasonable thing to do in this case, keep denying that something like that is going to happen until you see something like that actually happening first. Can't go wrong that way.

    BTW, Ezekiel 38-39 involves endtimes in regards to unbelieving Jews. I'm not seeing in the text where any of that is also involving a rebuilt temple in the land at the time, though.
     
  13. Jamdoc

    Jamdoc Watching and Praying Always

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    100 years ago you'd have been denying that Israel would ever be a nation again.
    and you'd be wrong.
     
  14. DavidPT

    DavidPT Well-Known Member

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    Though you are correct, that's a bit different than now. A temple needs to be built now and pronto, if any of these things are ever going to come to pass in a literal sense before Christ returns. For all we know, Christ might return within the next 10 years or less, for example.
     
  15. Spiritual Jew

    Spiritual Jew Well-Known Member Supporter

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    I'm not confused. My interpretation doesn't contradict other scripture like yours does.

    I completely disagree. It's both a pronouncement of judgment AND a call to convocation! Read it again.

    Revelation 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

    The part I bolded above is the "call to convocation" that you're talking about. You seem to have missed that part.

    The Holy Spirit knows all and inspired both Paul and John. How else should we understand the LAST trumpet if it's not actually the LAST prophetic trumpet?


    So, you are using other scripture to aid your understanding of Revelation 11. You acted as if it was explained clearly in Revelation itself, which it is not. And you know that because you had to refer to Zechariah 4 for more understanding. How is that different than me using other scripture that talks about the temple of God being the church/collective body of Christ to aid my understanding of the temple of God?

    I disagree. It's not two individuals because they are described as "two candlesticks" and "two olive trees" (Rev 11:4). It makes more sense to refer to other New Testament scripture for understanding of what candlesticks and olive trees represent. Read Revelation 1:20 and Romans 11:13-24.

    Jesus said that Elijah already came. It's no wonder that Jesus said regarding John the Baptist "And if you are willing to accept it, he is the Elijah who was to come" (Matthew 11:14). He knew that some people, like you, would have trouble accepting that because it goes against your tendency to interpret prophecy very literally. But we're talking about Jesus here. We should accept everything He said.

    Yes, it's a temple. But, it does not say if it's physical or not. It's described with figurative language, which you aren't recognizing. Think about it. What would be the point of literally measuring a physical temple? I can't think of any. It's figuratively describing those who are part of the church/temple of God as opposed to those who are outside the temple and not part of the church.

    Also, did you miss this verse:

    Revelation 11:19 And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.

    This describes the temple of God as being heavenly. That does not describe a physical temple. You're not using scripture to interpret scripture here. Surely, this temple of God is the same temple of God referenced earlier in the chapter. Unless John was trying to confuse people.

    No, I'd rather not interpret it literally since it is referred to as "Mystery Babylon" (Rev 17:5). There's no mystery about it if it was the literal Babylon. The woman/Babylon clearly is meant to be spiritually discerned rather than being spelled out for us.

    The point is that it's not clearly explained in the text itself. You are making guesses here based on what it does say, but it's not just spelled out for us. The same is true regarding the temple of God in Revelation 11.

    Mountains can represent kingdoms in scripture. You already said you see the seven heads as being seven world empires. Did you change your mind and now see them as 7 literal mountains instead?

    You said "the woman is a city". Well, who can argue with that? Yet, you can't tell me what city it is. And why would you assume it's referring to an earthly city? Can't it be the spiritual opposite of the heavenly new Jerusalem instead?

    That's a lame argument. We're talking about a highly symbolic book here (Revelation), not something to take all literally like the beatitudes of Matthew 5.

    Congratulations on proving something that all of us here already believe. Did you think I didn't believe any Bible prophecy had a literal fulfillment? Of course some of it does. And some of it is written in figurative language. We have to figure out which is which. I happen to believe that you're not very good at at that sometimes, but that's my opinion.
     
    Last edited: Jul 26, 2021
  16. Spiritual Jew

    Spiritual Jew Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Beyond just that, it would have to be a temple that scripture would refer to as "the temple of God". Would a physical temple built by unbelieving Jews be something that scripture would refer to as "the temple of God"? No way.
     
  17. Jamdoc

    Jamdoc Watching and Praying Always

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    Well, I set the fig tree bringing forth new leaves to be 1967 when Jerusalem was retaken, so.. I think it's possible. Israel was created in a day in accordance with Isaiah 66.
    The temple institute has been training Levite priests, making recreations of all the temple furnishings according to the scriptures, and has been practicing sacrifices using a portable altar they can assemble within a day.
    It all hinges on politics, but it could happen very quickly once the politics is settled. They claim to have the resources and plans to build the temple in under 2 years.
    all they need is permission.

    Think the Gog and Magog war, with the invasion being thrown back by God, the enemies that'd prevent Jerusalem from making the temple would no longer be an issue.
    One possibility anyway.

    I've had to rethink my interpretation of Babylon in Revelation as well, while yes, Mystery Babylon describes a global relgious system, the Babylon in Revelation 18 describes an actual city.
    If the Lord raised up Israel in a day, if the Lord can have a third temple built in Jerusalem, if the Lord can have Israel single handedly defeat Russia, Turkey and Iran, and their allies in an overwhelming rout with no foreign help?
    Then He can raise up Babylon to tear down in the last days too.
    literally.
    I'm not going to doubt that the Lord can fulfill literally, unless we are told something is a symbol.
     
  18. Spiritual Jew

    Spiritual Jew Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Who exactly is being replaced in "replacement theology" and who replaces them?

    How do you interpret this passage:

    Romans 9:6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel: 7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. 8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

    Can you discern that there are two Israels mentioned here? What is the difference between them? Who are part of the Israel of which not all of Israel are part?
     
  19. Jamdoc

    Jamdoc Watching and Praying Always

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    Okay since you seem to completely miss this..
    again
    1 Corinthians was written to a church, 40 years before Revelation was written.
    Was Paul meaning to utterly confuse the church for 40 years until they'd be able to read Revelation to learn about the 7 trumpet judgements?
    You have to understand the pupose of the letters is to communicate, not obscure.
    You wouldn't need Revelation to understand 1 Corinthians.
    but in your interpretation, you would, you would not be able to understand what Paul meant by "last trump" until 40 years later, IF you got a copy of that book.
     
  20. Jamdoc

    Jamdoc Watching and Praying Always

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    To be Israel, you need to both be a descendent of Jacob, and also keep with the law. Torah is full of laws where if a person transgresses the law, they are cut off.
    So. you can outwardly be a Jew, but inwardly not be a Jew.
    We're grafted into the family of God, but we are not Israel.
    Replacement theology teaches that Gentile Christians replace the descendants of Abraham and that God is "done" with Israel as a nation and people.
    I don't believe that, I believe Arbraham, Isaac, and Jacob will be welcoming in literal blood relatives into heaven, and that there are still promises to keep to those 3 involving the land they were promised and that they'd always have descendants. The promise to David that His descendant would always rule is kept in Jesus, but I don't think that's all God will do with Abraham's bloodline.
    I'm not a dispensationalist, I think that the same thing that saved us is going to save Israel, but, I think that Israel is back as a nation, and that the prophecies involving Israel involve that literal nation of Jews and the remnant of them that'll be saved, rather than applying those prophecies to the church.
     
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