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John 14:1-3 "I will com again" - post-trib, pre-mill, full Rapture, visible

Discussion in 'Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum' started by BobRyan, Jun 19, 2021.

  1. BobRyan

    BobRyan Junior Member

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    = I will "come again" -- the rapture event
    John 14:1-3 - “Let not your heart be troubled; you believe in God, believe also in Me. 2 In My Father’s house are many mansions; if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself; that where I am, there you may be also.”

    =========================
    Christ's full description: Matt 24 rapture-event
    Matt 24:
    3
    ..what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?”

    post-trib Rapture - every eye sees it
    Matt 24:29 “But immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory. 31 And He will send forth His angels with a great trumpet blast, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.

    Same Matt 24 rapture-event described by Paul
    1 Thess 4:13-18
    13 But we do not want you to be uninformed, brothers and sisters, about those who are asleep, so that you will not grieve as indeed the rest of mankind do, who have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose from the dead, so also God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep through Jesus. 15 For we say this to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive, who remain, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore, comfort one another with these words.



    And destruction of all the wicked
    2 Thess 1: 6
    For after all it is only right for God to repay with affliction those who afflict you, 7 and to give relief to you who are afflicted, along with us, when the Lord Jesus will be revealed from heaven with His mighty angels 8 in flaming fire, dealing out retribution to those who do not know God, and to those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. 9 These people will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, 10 when He comes to be glorified among His saints on that day, and to be marveled at among all who have believed


    =====================================
    Wicked armies slain - and "The rest were killed" -- at this Matt 24, 1Thess 4 rapture event.
    Rev 19
    11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse, and He who sat on it is called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and wages war. 12 His eyes are a flame of fire, and on His head are many crowns; and He has a name written on Him which no one knows except Himself. 13 He is clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God. 14 And the armies which are in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white and clean, were following Him on white horses. 15 From His mouth comes a sharp sword, so that with it He may strike down the nations, and He will rule them with a rod of iron; and He treads the wine press of the fierce wrath of God, the Almighty. 16 And on His robe and on His thigh He has a name written: “KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.”
    17 Then I saw an angel standing in the sun, and he cried out with a loud voice, saying to all the birds that fly in midheaven, “Come, assemble for the great feast of God, 18 so that you may eat the flesh of kings and the flesh of commanders, the flesh of mighty men, the flesh of horses and of those who sit on them, and the flesh of all people, both free and slaves, and small and great.”

    19 And I saw the beast and the kings of the earth and their armies, assembled to make war against Him who sat on the horse, and against His army.
    20 And the beast was seized, and with him the false prophet who performed the signs in his presence, by which he deceived those who had received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image; these two were thrown alive into the lake of fire, which burns with brimstone. 21 And the rest were killed with the sword which came from the mouth of Him who sat on the horse, and all the birds were filled with their flesh.

    =========================================
    So that means: Persecution of the saints ends at the Rev 19 coming of Christ - when He raptures the saints and destroys the wicked.

    Dan 7:24 As for the ten horns, out of this kingdom ten kings will arise; and another will arise after them, and he will be different from the previous ones and will humble three kings. 25 And he will speak against the Most High and wear down the saints of the Highest One, and he will intend to make alterations in times and in law; and they will be handed over to him for a time, times, and half a time. 26 But the court will convene for judgment, and his dominion will be taken away, annihilated and destroyed forever. 27 Then the sovereignty, the dominion, and the greatness of all the kingdoms under the whole heaven will be given to the people of the saints of the Highest One; His kingdom will be an everlasting kingdom, and all the empires will serve and obey Him.’
     
    Last edited: Jun 19, 2021
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  2. BobRyan

    BobRyan Junior Member

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    does not fit everyone's idea - but it is what the Bible teaches
     
  3. BobRyan

    BobRyan Junior Member

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    Sola scriptura testing is the only way to find this out.
     
  4. sovereigngrace

    sovereigngrace Well-Known Member

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    These passages are all climactic. They forbid the Premil theory.

    Where is your supposed future millennium taught in any of these?
     
  5. sovereigngrace

    sovereigngrace Well-Known Member

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    During our Lord’s earthly ministry He made a very significant statement about the heavenly abode, which many modern-day eschatology students tend to overlook. Jesus said, in John 14:1-3, “Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me. In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.”

    Christ was, shortly after this incident, going to His “Father’s house” – heaven – to “prepare a place” for His people. That “place,” which was undoubtedly heavenly, and its final manifestation, is clearly identified here with the second coming of the Lord Jesus Christ. The word rendered “prepare” here, in the King James Version, is the Greek word hetoimasoo which simply means ‘to make ready’. Therefore, Christ is presently preparing, or making ready, a heavenly abode for the redeemed of God, which they will inhabit at His glorious final all-consummating Second Coming.

    That “prepared” city is repeatedly described in Scripture as the New Jerusalem – the heavenly city. In a parallel passage in Revelation 3:11-12, Christ promises His people, while also speaking of His glorious all-consummating Second Advent, “Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown. Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

    This second coming passage confirms our notion. The heavenly city comes down from heaven with Christ when He returns.

    Jesus said in Matthew 24:35-44: “Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away. But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only. But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come. But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up. Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.”

    After telling us that “heaven and earth shall pass away,” Jesus immediately tells us: “of that day and hour knoweth no man.” This final day that is approachingis coming unexpectedly. This fits in with the “thief in the night” scenario found elsewhere in Scripture. It would seem to confirm that the day that Christ returns is the day when the current corrupt natural order (both the creature and creation) is gloriously changed. The wicked and all corruption are destroyed when Jesus comes. The Lord here identifies the passing away of “heaven and earth” with “the coming of the Son of man.”

    Jesus said in Luke 17:26-30, “as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man. They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all. Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded; But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all. Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.”

    The plain focus of this teaching in Luke 17 (reference Noah and Lot’s day) is the nature and degree of the judgment that befell the wicked in these two familiar Old Testament stories and especially the extent of that particular wrath. The key element and major emphasis of this discourse is the fact (speaking of the ungodly) that God “destroyed them all.” The comprehensive destruction of the wicked in both of these examples is the important lesson of the narrative; both the whole world of Noah’s day and the whole individual city of Sodom in Lot’s day saw the immediate and complete rescue of the entire righteous coupled together with the immediate and complete destruction of the entire wicked.

    1 Thessalonians 4:15-5:3 confirms this saying: “we which are alive and remain unto the coming (parousia) of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words. But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you. For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

    This coming is not only sudden but noisy. Christ is not coming secretly with an apologetic whisper but publicly with a triumphant shout. He appears with “with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God.” This trumpet will sound and bring forth the elect from all nations. I Thessalonians 5:2-7 confirms that it isn’t just Christ’s coming that is sudden but also the destruction that accompanies. Likening Christ’s return to “a thief in the night” capably serves to impress the surprising nature of this Coming for the lost. It shows that the wicked are caught abruptly in their folly at the apocalypse. The “sudden destruction” is so impactful that none escape. That is explicit in the narrative. The wicked are totally and completely destroyed, allowing no room for the Pretrib theory of a subsequent 7yrs trib.

    II Thessalonians 1:4-10 records: “we ourselves glory in you in the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that ye endure: Which is a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer: Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you; And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, in flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.”

    The Holy Spirit could hardly have made this more water-tight: men either know God or they don't. To know God is eternal life (John 17:3). This was also the case in Noah and Lot's day. Nothing has changed. If humans know Him, they are rescued at His return, if they do not know Him, they are destroyed. Simple! Premils have no problems with this reality when it comes to Noah and Lot's day. They only get awkward and pedantic when it comes to the second coming, because it negates their doctrine. They feel the need to diminish the scale and timing of the destruction in order to populate their alleged future millennial earth.

    Revelation 19:11-16 makes clear, And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself. And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God. And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean. And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall shepherd them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.”

    Verses 17-18 says, I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God; That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great. And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army. And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone. The loipoy (or remaining ones) those left behind were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.”

    Amils take this literal! This is complete, wholesale, and total destruction - for those left behind. There are no survivors!
     
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  6. sandman

    sandman Senior Member

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    What do we do with these and other scripture ...?

    I Thessalonians 1:10


    10: And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.

    1 Thessalonians 5:9
    9
    For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

    Romans 5:9
    9:
    Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.
     
  7. sovereigngrace

    sovereigngrace Well-Known Member

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    Who are you asking? And, can you explain your point?
     
  8. sandman

    sandman Senior Member

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    Whoever (pre-trib) has an answer for those scripture.
     
  9. BobRyan

    BobRyan Junior Member

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    Amen!

    Indeed - the Bible presents "post-trib" not pre-trib.. hence Matt 24:29
     
  10. sandman

    sandman Senior Member

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    Agreed .....My mistake ....I misunderstood the posts
     
  11. Marilyn C

    Marilyn C Newbie Supporter

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    Hi BobRyan,

    If we look at WHO the Lord is speaking to then we will see WHEN He will come for them.

    Always good to know who is talking to whom.

    regards, Marilyn.
     
  12. BobRyan

    BobRyan Junior Member

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    Matt 28:
    16 But the eleven disciples proceeded to Galilee, to the mountain which Jesus had designated to them. 17 And when they saw Him, they worshiped Him; but some were doubtful. 18 And Jesus came up and spoke to them, saying, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to Me. 19 Go, therefore, and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to follow all that I commanded you; and behold, I am with you always, to the end of the age.”

    Jesus commanded His Jewish disciples to teach everyone what He taught them... the gospel... the truth about the future.

    Matt 24: 14 This gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all the nations, and then the end will come.

    Gal 1:6-9 -- no such thing as "two gospels"
    6 I am amazed that you are so quickly deserting Him who called you by the grace of Christ, for a different gospel, 7 which is not just another account; but there are some who are disturbing you and want to distort the gospel of Christ. 8 But even if we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to what we have preached to you, he is to be accursed! 9 As we have said before, even now I say again: if anyone is preaching to you a gospel contrary to what you received, he is to be accursed!

    Ignoring everything Christ said to His disciples since they were all Jews -- does not work.
     
  13. Marilyn C

    Marilyn C Newbie Supporter

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    Hi BobRyan,

    I so agree there are NOT 2 gospels.

    However I do believe that the Lord the Head of His Body had MORE things to say when He ascended to the Father. That is why we have the epistles of the Apostle Paul.

    regards, Marilyn.
     
  14. Jeffwhosoever

    Jeffwhosoever Faithful Servant Staff Member Assistant Chaplain Angels Team Supporter

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    Revelation 20 has not happened yet and hence all of this is still to come. Satan's powers of deception over the nations are growing stronger by the hour, but his time is coming.

    20 Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven, holding the key of the abyss and a great chain in his hand. 2 And he took hold of the dragon, the serpent of old, who is the devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years; 3 and he threw him into the abyss and shut it and sealed it over him, so that he would not deceive the nations any longer, until the thousand years were completed; after these things he must be released for a short time.

    4 Then I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark on their foreheads and on their hands; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. 5 The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were completed. This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is the one who has a part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and will reign with Him for a thousand years.
     
  15. Jeffwhosoever

    Jeffwhosoever Faithful Servant Staff Member Assistant Chaplain Angels Team Supporter

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    How could Revelation 20 have occurred when no one has been resurrected yet besides the Lord Jesus?

    A literal interpretation of Revelation 20 trumps all symbolic interpretations according to Occam's razor.

    Definition of Occam's razor


    : a scientific and philosophical rule that entities should not be multiplied unnecessarily which is interpreted as requiring that the simplest of competing theories be preferred to the more complex or that explanations of unknown phenomena be sought first in terms of known quantities

    Definition of OCCAM'S RAZOR
     
  16. sovereigngrace

    sovereigngrace Well-Known Member

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    It is time to address the theological holes in your doctrine. Let us see who has corroboration and truth on their side. Frankly: who cares about Occam's Razor! Most of us prefer to let the Bible speak for itself.

    Who is "the first resurrection" in Acts 26:23 and Revelation 20:6?

    Who is "the firstborn from the dead" in Colossians 1:18?

    Who is "the firstfruits of them that slept" in 1 Corinthians 15:20?

    Who is "first begotten of the dead" in Revelation 1:5?
     
  17. sovereigngrace

    sovereigngrace Well-Known Member

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    Moses employs `a thousand' in Deuteronomy 7:9 saying, "Know therefore that the LORD thy God, he is God, the faithful God, which keepeth covenant and mercy with them that love him and keep his commandments to a thousand generations."

    Is this a literal or figurative thousand?

    1 Chronicles 16:13-17 also states, "O ye seed of Israel his servant, ye children of Jacob, his chosen ones. He is the LORD our God; his judgments are in all the earth. Be ye mindful always of his covenant; the word which he commanded to a thousand generations; Even of the covenant which he made with Abraham, and of his oath unto Isaac; And hath confirmed the same to Jacob for a law, and to Israel for an everlasting covenant."

    Is this a literal or figurative thousand?

    A thousand and ten thousand are used together in Psalm 91, saying, "Thou shalt not be afraid for the terror by night; nor for the arrow that flieth by day; Nor for the pestilence that walketh in darkness; nor for the destruction that wasteth at noonday. A thousand shall fall at thy side, and ten thousand at thy right hand; but it shall not come nigh thee" (vv 5-7).

    Is this a literal or figurative thousand?

    A similar contrast between these two numbers or ideas is seen in Deuteronomy 32:30, where a rhetorical question is asked, "How should one chase a thousand, and two put ten thousand to flight, except their Rock had sold them, and the Lord had shut them up?"

    Is this a literal or figurative thousand?

    Joshua affirms, on the same vein, in chapter 23, "One man of you shall chase a thousand: for the LORD your God, he it is that fighteth for you, as he hath promised you" (v 10).

    Is this a literal or figurative thousand?

    Isaiah the prophet similarly declares in Isaiah 30:17, "one thousand shall flee at the rebuke of one."

    This incidentally is the only passage in Scripture that makes mention of the actual number "one thousand," albeit, the term is used to impress a spiritual truth.

    Is this a literal or figurative thousand?

    Psalm 84:9-10 says, "Behold, O God our shield, and look upon the face of thine anointed. For a day in thy courts is better than a thousand. I had rather be a doorkeeper in the house of my God, than to dwell in the tents of wickedness."

    Is this a literal or figurative thousand?

    The figure a thousand is also employed in Psalm 50:10-11 saying, "For every beast of the forest is mine, and the cattle upon a thousand hills. I know all the fowls of the mountains: and the wild beasts of the field are mine."

    Is this a literal or figurative thousand?

    Ecclesiastes 7:27-28 succinctly says, "one man among a thousand have I found."

    Is this a literal or figurative thousand?

    In the same vein, Job 33:23 declares, "If there be a messenger with him, an interpreter, one among a thousand, to shew unto man his uprightness."

    Is this a literal or figurative thousand?

    The distinct contrast between one and a thousand is again found in Job 9:2-3, where Job declares, "I know it is so of a truth: but how should man be just with God? If he will contend with him, he cannot answer him one of a thousand."

    Is this a literal or figurative thousand?

    The same idea is intended in Isaiah 60:21-22, where the prophet instructs, in relation to the New Earth, "Thy people also shall be all righteous: they shall inherit the land for ever, the branch of my planting, the work of my hands, that I may be glorified. A little one shall become a thousand, and a small one a strong nation: I the Lord will hasten it in his time."

    Is this a literal or figurative thousand?

    Amos 5:1-4 says, "The virgin of Israel is fallen; she shall no more rise: she is forsaken upon her land; there is none to raise her up. For thus saith the Lord GOD; The city that went out by a thousand shall leave an hundred, and that which went forth by an hundred shall leave ten, to the house of Israel."

    Is this a literal or figurative thousand?
     
  18. Marilyn C

    Marilyn C Newbie Supporter

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    Hi SG,

    Yes `a thousand` years can be figurative, however `THE` thousand years, reveals that it is a definite time. The word `THE` refers to a SPECIFIC thing, so no ambiguity there.

    Marilyn.
     
  19. Marilyn C

    Marilyn C Newbie Supporter

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    Hi SG,

    It was mentioned that the Lord was the first and only one so far to be resurrected.
    The words `first` and `second` refer to the type of resurrection. The resurrection to life and the resurrection to death.

    `Jesus said ....Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice and come forth - those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.` (John 5: 28 & 29)

    Acts 26: 23 refers to the Lord.
    Col. 1: 18 is also the Lord.
    1 Cor. 15: 20 also the Lord.
    Rev. 1: 5 again is the Lord.

    Rev. 20: 4 - 6 these are those who did not take the mark of the beast and were beheaded for their witness to Jesus and the word of God. (as Jeff has said).

    regards, Marilyn
     
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  20. Marilyn C

    Marilyn C Newbie Supporter

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    Hi BobRyan,

    So we agree that there is only one gospel - that salvation is by faith in Jesus Christ and His finished work on the cross.

    Then I`m sure you would agree that just before Jesus` ascension He led the disciples out to the Mount of Olives, as far as Bethany. (Luke 24: 50) That village is on the south-eastern slope of the Mount of Olives. Thus it was from there that the Lord ascended into heaven.

    Two men stood by and told the disciples that `this same Jesus, who was taken from you into heaven, will so come in like manner as you saw Him go into heaven.` (Acts 1:11)

    The Prophet Zechariah confirms that the Mount of Olives is where the Lord will return.

    `The Lord will go forth and fight against those nations, as He fights in the day of battle. And His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives..` (Zech. 14: 3 & 4)

    The disciples wanted to know whether the Lord would restore the kingdom/rule to Israel when He ascended, (at this time - when the Lord was about to ascend). Jesus said it wasn`t for them to know.

    Thus we see that when the Lord returns to the Mount of Olives it is to deliver Israel, and to enable them to rule over the nations of the world. (Zech. 14)

    What a wonderful truth we have been told.

    Then when the Lord ascends to the Father`s right hand He has more to say. The Lord Jesus Christ, then being made Head of the Body by the Father, (Eph. 1: 22) tells His Body that He will mature them and finally gather them together to meet Him in the air. (Eph. 4: 13, 1 Thess. 4: 17)

    `We who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air.` (1 Thess. 4: 17)

    Another wonderful truth the Lord has revealed.

    regards, Marilyn.
     
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