John 11:48 "....shall come the Romans and take away of us, place and nation"

mkgal1

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Jesus Christ has defined the stones as people.
In the New Covenant - yes......but not the Old.
It is the people of His Old Testament Congregation which ALREADY fell into desolate when He was cut off. They already lost their kingdom representative.
No.....you can't say that. We wouldn't have the Church if it weren't for His faithful Old Testament believers - Congregation, if you prefer (like Abraham, Sarah, Moses, Isaac, King David, Samson's mother/Manoah's wife, Abigail, Jacob, Joseph, Ruth, Esther, Rahab....for a few examples).

IMO - you're changing the entire plot of the Bible. The priests were encharged with maintaining - first - the Ark of the Covenant that represented God's presence. The thread that runs throughout the Bible is about GOD and His presence.....that's the focus of the Bible - God (not PEOPLE).

If we put our eyes on PEOPLE (even if they are "biblical people" ).....we're certain to have a skewed view. Just think of King David. He's known as a "man after God's own heart". He also took another man's wife; got her pregnant when he was supposed to be off at war; covered up the offense by having her husband - that she loved - murdered. However.....if we look at the same exact story, but look at God, we see His grace......His mercy.....His appreciation for striving and repentant hearts. We see His love for humanity.
 
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TribulationSigns

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I don't disagree that Jesus came as the cornerstone of His new Temple.

Good. Scripture confirms this:

Isaiah 28:16 KJV
[16] Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD, Behold, I lay in Zion for a foundation a stone, a tried stone, a precious corner stone, a sure foundation: he that believeth shall not make haste.

Ephesians 2:20-21 KJV
[20] And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;
[21] In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:

1 Peter 2:5-6 KJV
[5] Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.
[6] Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded.

What I DO take issue with is your negligence in recognizing the physical temple that was standing (and the one before it - Solomon's temple and that whole associated system) - and some of the meaning behind it. You seem to want to push it all aside and ignore it.

Okay, let me try this...

Do you agree that the Jews were the stones of the spiritual Old Testament building IN CHRIST that the physical temple, wall, city, animals, blood, altar, etc. as a type pointing to Him?! Get it? When Christ told the Jews to destroy THIS temple. What temple did Jesus actually talked about? Did Christ talk about the physical Jewish temple that the Jews "thought" that what Jesus talked about. The answer is NO! It is the BODY of the temple which the Jews, the people of his congregation, represented, just like we are part of the body of New Testament Temple in Christ! Selah! By destroying the body of Christ, their temple fell and their kingdom representative was taken from them and gave to New Testament congregation which Christ DID rebuilt in 3 days, Selah! This has nothing to do with physical temple in 70AD!

See, the Jews had the physical temples, altar, city, etc. where they had their faith based on while we, the Christians, in the New Testament has the Holy Bible with the Revelation of Jesus Christ with Old Testament as an example pointing back to Messiah the Prince at the Cross, which our faith is based on! Get it? That is why we have no need to built a physical temple now for we, like the Jews of Old, are the spiritual stones of the temple! Nothing changed with the spiritual temple (Christ's body) as it went from old testament to new testament, only the kingdom representative was transferred! The chosen Jews and Gentiles from the Old and New Testament are ALL lively stones of Christ's body (temple/city), first the Old Testament Jews, then the New Testament Gentiles. We are saved by the SAME FAITH and True Elect of God that Christ did pour His Living Water (Holy Spirit) from Jerusalem in Zechariah 14! We, as a congregation never fell because the Chief Cornerstone (Christ) has always been established on our foundation. But only the unfaithful and external body of the congregation of the Old and New Testament who have rejected Messiah both did and will FALL! First the Jews, then the Gentiles! Notice the TWO desolations against God's congregation:

Daniel 9:26-27 KJV
[26] And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
[27] And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

Verse 26 is talking about the desolation of Old Testament Congregation where the Jews had Messiah cut off. Verse 27 is talking about the desolation of the New Testament Congregation that Christ confirmed a covenant because of her unfaithfulness just like the Jews of Old. This is why there is confusion among you to believe that Olivet Discourse only applies Old Testament congregation when Christ was talking about the New Testament congregation where Judea, city, etc. are TYPE of!
 
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parousia70

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As I said, The Lord Judges and I am comfortable with that. All I can say is that you will be in for a big disappointment when the last trump sounds.

Why woud I be disappointed?
Understanding and accepting the "Correct" eschatology has absolutely no bearing on salvation.

So, doesn't really matter which member of the Body of Christ holds the wrong or right eschatology, for regardless of the outcome, we shall all live together with the Lord.

Impossible for me to find that disappointing.
 
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mkgal1

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TS.....your posts are all over the place. I'd appreciate it if we could stick with one point at a time.

You posted:


Do you agree that the Jews were the stones of the spiritual Old Testament building
No.....I don't think it's wise to confuse His Old Covenant Temple (where it represents His dwelling place in the Old Testament) with HIs people. By doing that - you're overlooking the entire religious system that was in place.

TS said:
IN CHRIST that the physical temple, wall, city, animals, blood, altar, etc. as a type pointing to Him?! Get it?

I DO believe, however, that all of that did - indeed - point to Jesus. Yes. But don't confuse Jesus with His people (which is what you seem to be doing....um....maybe? I have NO idea what you're doing, actually).
When Christ told the Jews to destroy THIS temple. What temple did Jesus actually talked about?
Now we're getting into New Covenant.....let's wrestle over one era at a time....okay? My mind gets flooded and overwhelmed going all over the place like that.

Did Christ talk about the physical Jewish temple that the Jews "thought" that what Jesus talked about. The answer is NO! It is the BODY of the temple which the Jews, the people of his congregation, represented, just like we are part of the body of New Testament Temple in Christ! Selah! By destroying the body of Christ, their temple fell and their kingdom representative was taken from them and gave to New Testament congregation which Christ DID rebuilt in 3 days, Selah! This has nothing to do with physical temple in 70AD!
Again......New Covenant.....new era......new age. I'll get back to this later.
 
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TribulationSigns

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Interesting, out of all the responses you made against me today alone, you did not even quote a single verse to support your personal opinions. Not surprised with why you came up with a straw man, vain, or empty accusation against my testimony.

Luke 21:15 KJV
[15] For I will give you a mouth and wisdom, which all your adversaries shall not be able to gainsay nor resist.
 
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TribulationSigns

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Why woud I be disappointed?
Understanding and accepting the "Correct" eschatology has absolutely no bearing on salvation.

Where did you think I made such a claim? Salvation is God's business.

So, doesn't really matter which member of the Body of Christ holds the wrong or right eschatology, for regardless of the outcome, we shall all live together with the Lord.

According to Lord's Election, yes.

Impossible for me to find that disappointing.

I am saying that one will feel regret for holding false doctrine, attack or try to silence the Truthful testimony. But again Salvation is God's business that one will find out on Judgment Day.
 
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TribulationSigns

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In the New Covenant - yes......but not the Old.

Not surprised why you wanted to believe that to fit your 70AD doctrine with physical destruction of the old testament temple despite the Scripture I quoted that the old testament congregation fell and in three days, Christ rebuilt it with New Testament congregation's inception on Pentecost. Everything took place at that time, not 40 years later.

No.....you can't say that. We wouldn't have the Church if it weren't for His faithful Old Testament believers - Congregation, if you prefer (like Abraham, Sarah, Moses, Isaac, King David, Samson's mother/Manoah's wife, Abigail, Jacob, Joseph, Ruth, Esther, Rahab....for a few examples).

If we put our eyes on PEOPLE (even if they are "biblical people" ).....we're certain to have a skewed view.

They are all spiritual stones of the True temple as we are. Try reading about New Jerusalem, a Bride of Christ, A Great City of God with all the stones, starting from Adam to the Last Elect, in Revelation 21.
 
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mkgal1

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The beginning of the story of the Temples and the Israelites began in 2 Samuel 7 - when David was finally living in a palace - and he realized God was "dwelling in a tent". I'm not so sure that God actually desired it to be that way - other than it was a way to give the Israelites what they understood (gods living in physical places - animal sacrifices to appease....etc) - but Solomon seemed to recognize that God wasn't actually "contained" in the Temple - that He can't be contained or limited. But God made a few promises here (that He's already fulfilled):

(For the sake of TS, I'll go ahead and post the Scripture I'm referring to)

2 Samuel 7
The Lord’s Covenant Promise to David
7 When King David was settled in his palace and the Lord had given him rest from all the surrounding enemies, 2 the king summoned Nathan the prophet. “Look,” David said, “I am living in a beautiful cedar palace, but the Ark of God is out there in a tent!”

3 Nathan replied to the king, “Go ahead and do whatever you have in mind, for the Lord is with you.”

4 But that same night the Lord said to Nathan,

5 “Go and tell my servant David, ‘This is what the Lord has declared: Are you the one to build a house for me to live in? 6 I have never lived in a house, from the day I brought the Israelites out of Egypt until this very day. I have always moved from one place to another with a tent and a Tabernacle as my dwelling. 7 Yet no matter where I have gone with the Israelites, I have never once complained to Israel’s tribal leaders, the shepherds of my people Israel. I have never asked them, “Why haven’t you built me a beautiful cedar house?”’

8 “Now go and say to my servant David, ‘This is what the Lord of Heaven’s Armies has declared: I took you from tending sheep in the pasture and selected you to be the leader of my people Israel. 9 I have been with you wherever you have gone, and I have destroyed all your enemies before your eyes. Now I will make your name as famous as anyone who has ever lived on the earth! 10 And I will provide a homeland for my people Israel, planting them in a secure place where they will never be disturbed. Evil nations won’t oppress them as they’ve done in the past, 11 starting from the time I appointed judges to rule my people Israel. And I will give you rest from all your enemies.

“‘Furthermore, the Lord declares that he will make a house for you—a dynasty of kings! 12 For when you die and are buried with your ancestors, I will raise up one of your descendants, your own offspring, and I will make his kingdom strong. 13 He is the one who will build a house—a temple—for my name. And I will secure his royal throne forever. 14 I will be his father, and he will be my son. If he sins, I will correct and discipline him with the rod, like any father would do. 15 But my favor will not be taken from him as I took it from Saul, whom I removed from your sight. 16 Your house and your kingdom will continue before me for all time, and your throne will be secure forever.’”

17 So Nathan went back to David and told him everything the Lord had said in this vision.



1 Kings 8:22-61
Solomon’s Prayer of Dedication


22 Then Solomon stood before the altar of the Lord in front of the entire community of Israel. He lifted his hands toward heaven, 23 and he prayed,

“O Lord, God of Israel, there is no God like you in all of heaven above or on the earth below. You keep your covenant and show unfailing love to all who walk before you in wholehearted devotion. 24 You have kept your promise to your servant David, my father. You made that promise with your own mouth, and with your own hands you have fulfilled it today.

25 “And now, O Lord, God of Israel, carry out the additional promise you made to your servant David, my father. For you said to him, ‘If your descendants guard their behavior and faithfully follow me as you have done, one of them will always sit on the throne of Israel.’ 26 Now, O God of Israel, fulfill this promise to your servant David, my father.

27 “But will God really live on earth? Why, even the highest heavens cannot contain you. How much less this Temple I have built!28 Nevertheless, listen to my prayer and my plea, O Lord my God. Hear the cry and the prayer that your servant is making to you today.29 May you watch over this Temple night and day, this place where you have said, ‘My name will be there.’ May you always hear the prayers I make toward this place. 30 May you hear the humble and earnest requests from me and your people Israel when we pray toward this place. Yes, hear us from heaven where you live, and when you hear, forgive.

31 “If someone wrongs another person and is required to take an oath of innocence in front of your altar in this Temple, 32 then hear from heaven and judge between your servants—the accuser and the accused. Punish the guilty as they deserve. Acquit the innocent because of their innocence.

33 “If your people Israel are defeated by their enemies because they have sinned against you, and if they turn to you and acknowledge your name and pray to you here in this Temple, 34 then hear from heaven and forgive the sin of your people Israel and return them to this land you gave their ancestors.

35 “If the skies are shut up and there is no rain because your people have sinned against you, and if they pray toward this Temple and acknowledge your name and turn from their sins because you have punished them, 36 then hear from heaven and forgive the sins of your servants, your people Israel. Teach them to follow the right path, and send rain on your land that you have given to your people as their special possession.

37 “If there is a famine in the land or a plague or crop disease or attacks of locusts or caterpillars, or if your people’s enemies are in the land besieging their towns—whatever disaster or disease there is—38 and if your people Israel pray about their troubles, raising their hands toward this Temple, 39 then hear from heaven where you live, and forgive. Give your people what their actions deserve, for you alone know each human heart. 40 Then they will fear you as long as they live in the land you gave to our ancestors.

41 “In the future, foreigners who do not belong to your people Israel will hear of you. They will come from distant lands because of your name, 42 for they will hear of your great name and your strong hand and your powerful arm. And when they pray toward this Temple,43 then hear from heaven where you live, and grant what they ask of you. In this way, all the people of the earth will come to know and fear you, just as your own people Israel do. They, too, will know that this Temple I have built honors your name.

44 “If your people go out where you send them to fight their enemies, and if they pray to the Lord by turning toward this city you have chosen and toward this Temple I have built to honor your name,45 then hear their prayers from heaven and uphold their cause.

46 “If they sin against you—and who has never sinned?—you might become angry with them and let their enemies conquer them and take them captive to their land far away or near. 47 But in that land of exile, they might turn to you in repentance and pray, ‘We have sinned, done evil, and acted wickedly.’ 48 If they turn to you with their whole heart and soul in the land of their enemies and pray toward the land you gave to their ancestors—toward this city you have chosen, and toward this Temple I have built to honor your name— 49 then hear their prayers and their petition from heaven where you live, and uphold their cause. 50 Forgive your people who have sinned against you. Forgive all the offenses they have committed against you. Make their captors merciful to them, 51 for they are your people—your special possession—whom you brought out of the iron-smelting furnace of Egypt.

52 “May your eyes be open to my requests and to the requests of your people Israel. May you hear and answer them whenever they cry out to you. 53 For when you brought our ancestors out of Egypt, O Sovereign Lord, you told your servant Moses that you had set Israel apart from all the nations of the earth to be your own special possession.”

The Dedication of the Temple
54 When Solomon finished making these prayers and petitions to the Lord, he stood up in front of the altar of the Lord, where he had been kneeling with his hands raised toward heaven. 55 He stood and in a loud voice blessed the entire congregation of Israel:

56 “Praise the Lord who has given rest to his people Israel, just as he promised. Not one word has failed of all the wonderful promises he gave through his servant Moses. 57 May the Lord our God be with us as he was with our ancestors; may he never leave us or abandon us. 58 May he give us the desire to do his will in everything and to obey all the commands, decrees, and regulations that he gave our ancestors. 59 And may these words that I have prayed in the presence of the Lord be before him constantly, day and night, so that the Lord our God may give justice to me and to his people Israel, according to each day’s needs.60 Then people all over the earth will know that the Lord alone is God and there is no other. 61 And may you be completely faithful to the Lord our God. May you always obey his decrees and commands, just as you are doing today.”
 
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TribulationSigns

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No.....I don't think it's wise to confuse His Old Covenant Temple (where it represents His dwelling place in the Old Testament) with HIs people. By doing that - you're overlooking the entire religious system that was in place.

I rest my case. I am done dealing with you here.

Thank you!
 
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mkgal1

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Not surprised with why you felt offended by my testimony.
Not "offended" - just confused at what point you're attempting to make, and possibly disagreeing.
 
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mkgal1

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the old testament congregation fell and in three days, Christ rebuilt it with New Testament congregation's inception on Pentecost. Everything took place at that time, not 40 years later.
When you FIRST posted that "the old testament congregation fell and in three days, Christ rebuilt it with the New Testament congregation" I'd responded with "How so?". You then refused to answer. I went back and read all your posts and have found nothing posted about an explanation of just that (a rebuilding of His congregation). I can't really disagree - because I don't even understand your point.
 
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mkgal1

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I rest my case. I am done dealing with you here.

Thank you!
You mean you give up? Because, so far, I've not been able to figure out what your case even is - so I'm confused how you can put it to "rest".
 
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TribulationSigns

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When you FIRST posted that "the old testament congregation fell and in three days, Christ rebuilt it with the New Testament congregation" I'd responded with "How so?". You then refused to answer. I went back and read all your posts and have found nothing posted about an explanation of just that (a rebuilding of His congregation). I can't really disagree - because I don't even understand your point.

Do you "think" no one recognizes your refusal to address the Stones of the Sanctuary being poured out? You are "deliberately" distorting the truth of Lamentations. You are rationalizing or wresting scriptures. As usual, you seem unable to grasp even simple grammatical sentences (seem being the operable word). If you will read carefully in Lamentations and its context. It is talking about God's people becoming apostate. Gold becoming dim or losing it's beauty. How is the most fine gold changed! You see, it's not me who is offensive, it is you who are offensive to God in your deliberate mishandling of His word for your own self-righteous purposes.

Lamentations 4:1-2
  • "How is the gold become dim! how is the most fine gold changed! The stones of the sanctuary are poured out in the top of every street.
  • The precious sons of Zion, comparable to fine gold, how are they esteemed as earthen pitchers, the work of the hands of the potter!"
Distort as you will, it's the "people," the sons of Zion, whom God is comparing to stones and to fine gold gone bad. You refuse to receive the love of truth (or truth in love) because you don't know what truth is, and your idea of love is a smooth word in place of truth. You place your preterism doctrines above God's infallible word, and that is what is really offensive. Not my making your scriptural-gymnastics manifest!

Let me ask you something, do you think the Jews were builders and the stones were not literal/physical?

For your "information," those Jews were God's covenant people, the visible representation of the kingdom of God upon earth. You act as if they weren't and insisted on focusing on physical temple and city. As has already been told you, from Scripture, the "Kingdom" was taken from them by Christ's cross. Before that, they were the Kingdom representation. Get that straight first, Selah! And then you just might be able to see what is true and what is false concerning the covenant congregation of God, and how they can be as stones poured out in the streets of Zion. As God Himself signified in lamentations. And you might both read the books, and look up the "definition of lamentations" also. It might help you understand...Lord willing!
 
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mkgal1

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They are all spiritual stones of the True temple as we are. Try reading about New Jerusalem, a Bride of Christ, A Great City of God with all the stones, starting from Adam to the Last Elect, in Revelation 21.
But you'd posted this:

TribulationSigns said:
It is the people of His Old Testament Congregation which ALREADY fell into desolate when He was cut off. They already lost their kingdom representative.
To which I responded:

No.....you can't say that. We wouldn't have the Church if it weren't for His faithful Old Testament believers - Congregation, if you prefer (like Abraham, Sarah, Moses, Isaac, King David, Samson's mother/Manoah's wife, Abigail, Jacob, Joseph, Ruth, Esther, Rahab....for a few examples).
Are you meaning -possibly - that the OT saints....living and in Sheol.... "died along with Christ" - maybe? Is that what you mean by "they already lost their kingdom representative"?​
 
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TribulationSigns

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You mean you give up? Because, so far, I've not been able to figure out what your case even is - so I'm confused how you can put it to "rest".

I did not say that. I am saying that you don't get it after presented tons of Scripture from Old and New Testament concerning Jews as stones of the building. Like the Jews of Old and the Dispensationalists, you, Preterists, are looking for literal fulfillments with a physical temple and city. May it be the destruction of the temple in 70AD, or build a third physical temple in Jerusalem, or a physical war against the modern city of Jerusalem. This TOTALLY missed what Christ was talking about!
 
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mkgal1

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Do you "think" no one recognizes your refusal to address the Stones of the Sanctuary being poured out? You are "deliberately" distorting the truth of Lamentations. You are rationalizing or wresting scriptures. As usual, you seem unable to grasp even simple grammatical sentences (seem being the operable word). If you will read carefully in Lamentations and its context. It is talking about God's people becoming apostate. Gold becoming dim or losing it's beauty. How is the most fine gold changed! You see, it's not me who is offensive, it is you who are offensive to God in your deliberate mishandling of His word for your own self-righteous purposes.
I'm fairly certain that you have the skill to - at least - attempt to make your point sans personal attacks. Maybe you can exercise that skill for us here? Exercise DOES make our "muscles" stronger.

The point I'm trying to make in response to your posts is that not ALL of Israel became apostate. If so.....NONE of us would be calling ourselves "Christian". No one on earth would be.
Distort as you will, it's the "people," the sons of Zion, whom God is comparing to stones and to fine gold gone bad. You refuse to receive the love of truth (or truth in love) because you don't know what truth is, and your idea of love is a smooth word in place of truth. You place your preterism doctrines above God's infallible word, and that is what is really offensive. Not my making your scriptural-gymnastics manifest!
Not much of a point besides a bunch of personal attacks. You've heard what that means when it comes to debate.....right?
 
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mkgal1

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you don't get it after presented tons of Scripture from Old and New Testament concerning Jews as stones of the building. Like the Jews of Old and the Dispensationalists, you, Preterists, are looking for literal fulfillments with a physical temple and city. May it be the destruction of the temple in 70AD, or build a third physical temple in Jerusalem, or a physical war against the modern city of Jerusalem. This TOTALLY missed what Christ was talking about!
The truth is - what I don't "get" is your interpretation.
 
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mkgal1

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So.....were all those personal attacks in order to obfuscate the question I asked (for the second time) in post #74? This is your opportunity to teach those of us that aren't as "enlightened" as you are. I'm "handing YOU the mic".
 
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TribulationSigns

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But you'd posted this:

To which I responded:


Are you meaning -possibly - that the OT saints....living and in Sheol.... "died along with Christ" - maybe? Is that what you mean by "they already lost their kingdom representative"?​

There is the only TRUE kingdom in Heaven that is made up of ALL True Elect from the Old and New Testament. Okay?

Now the point is the EARTHLY congregation represented the kingdom of God on EARTH in the Old Testament AND the New Testament made up of BOTH True Elect AND the Professed or unbelieving believers. People! Some are Gold, Silver and Precious stones (Elect), some are wood, hay and stubble (professed believers). Together they are builders of the congregation. Yes, they are spiritual stones as a builder of the spiritual kingdom which the body of Christ represented.

The kingdom representative was taken from the unfaithful Old Testament Congregation so that the New Testament Congregation will have the opportunity to produce more fruit, especially when it has the revelation of Jesus Christ! However, Christ warned that the New Testament congregation, in the end, will have the rise of false prophets and christs that will bring her into apostasy and desolate just like the Jews of Old in days of Christ. That is what Christ's Olivet Discourse and Revelation was about - the fall of the New Testament congregation. Of course, only if one has a spiritual understanding of what Christ is saying. That is why Christ said, "whoso readeth, let him understand." It is not understanding by carnal or superficial reading the verse based on history book or current news but with the spirit of Christ.
 
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