John 11:48 "....shall come the Romans and take away of us, place and nation"

mkgal1

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Apostolic era (33-100)
Main article: Timeline of Church History (Apostolic Era (33-100))
 
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parousia70

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I think the problem with some Preterists is that they believe that a physical temple must be destroyed in order a spiritual temple could be built. That was not what Jesus had in mind.

I wonder where they get that idea....?
Hebrews 9:8
the Holy Spirit indicating this, that the way into the Holiest of All was not yet made manifest while the first tabernacle was still standing.
 
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mkgal1

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Justin Martyr (Approx. AD 150)

CHAP. XLVII.--DESOLATION OF JUDAEA FORETOLD.

That the land of the Jews, then, was to be laid waste, hear what was said by the Spirit of prophecy. And the words were spoken as if from the person of the people wondering at what had happened. They are these: "Sion is a wilderness, Jerusalem a desolation. The house of our sanctuary has become a curse, and the glory which our fathers blessed is burned up with fire, and all its glorious things are laid waste: and Thou refrainest Thyself at these things, and hast held Thy peace, and hast humbled us very sore."(6) And ye are convinced that Jerusalem has been laid waste, as was predicted. And concerning its desolation, and that no one should be permitted to inhabit it, there was the following prophecy by Isaiah: "Their land is desolate, their enemies consume it before them, and none of them shall dwell therein."(7) And that it is guarded by you lest any one dwell in it, and that death is decreed against a Jew apprehended entering it, you know very well.(First Apology, Ch. 47.)
 
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Ronald

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Mat 24:39
17 “Let him who is on the housetop not go down to take anything out of his house.
18 “And let him who is in the field not go back to take his clothes.
39 “and did not know until the flood came and took them all away, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be.

You cannot take verses out of context, piece them together to form a theology. Matthew 24 speaks of two different times.After Jesus stated: "there will not be left here one stone upon another", (which dealt with the destruction of Jerusalem); the disciples asked a loaded question, that had two parts: "Tell us, [#1 when will these things be, AND [#2] what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age." Now, it could be that "the end of the age" meant something even further into the future, but let's examine.
While reading this chapter, Jesus goes back and forth, outlining first then coming back to fill in details. So the information contains different periods of time.
1. The Temple was destroyed. But did Jesus come at that time? No. Was it the end of the age? No. Spiritually, His kingdom started when He died, rose and fifty days later the Holy Spirit started the Church (32 or 33 AD.). >So if He was talking about His Resurrection / the end of the age (the OLD Covenant), then it had absolutely nothing to do with 70 AD.
Spiritually, He is our LORD, the Head of the Body, the Son of God. But has every knee on the planet bowed to Him? NO! And the Bible says in numerous scriptures that all nations will attack Jerusalem and the Lord will come against them Jesus was not speaking of His Resurrection, He was speaking of another time, His Second Coming and the end of the age. You also have to ask if all this was about 70 AD., how is that the end of the age? It's the end of Jerusalem, temporarily, but the end of the Temple in Jerusalem happened the day Jesus died.
2. The Second Coming and the end of the Age refers to a time the effects the entire planet, not just one small town. Judgment, involving many nations ... "rumors of wars, nation and nation, kingdom and kingdom, famines and earthquakes in various places ... the beginnings of birth pangs." (vs. 5-8)
>
Did these things occur in 70 AD? What are the birth pangs He was referring to? Was anything new born after 70AD? The Church was already born 38 years prior to that.
VS. 9 speaks of tribulation, Christians being put to death. Yes the Romans did but many nations are mentioned and this is the story of the future persecution of Christians to date. And now, many nations will come against the Jews and persecution of Christians has accelerated.
Jesus mentions false Christs and false prophets. Certainly He was not referring to the years leading up to the fall of Jerusalem. No, the age He is referring that will come to an end in the Church Age (within the scope of a sinful world). Satan, his demons, sin and evil will put eliminated from the planet along with false religions. The meek shall inherit the earth! Did that happen yet? NO. There will be a time when the lions, wolves, and vipers will be harmless, playing together with lambs and us, in harmony. Did that happen yet? No, Jesus is speaking of this time, a new age that will come, His Millennial Kingdom.
Vs. 14 claims the gospel will be preached to the whole world. Certainly, they just got started in the first century.
Vs.21, 22 speaks of "... a great tribulation, such has never been since the beginning of the world until now, no, and never will be."
In 70AD, many died (some say 1 million?), but the destruction of Jerusalem
cannot be compared to the worst slaughter or time of tribulation in history, certainly not the WWI, WWII. Hitler alone slaughter 10-12 million. No, this is a future time. But of course a message goes to the Jews (those in Judea ... those who still observe the Sabbath specifically) BECAUSE, many nations will be warring against them and Jesus will return to destroy them.
"... if those days had not been cut short, no human being would be saved." Meaning, no human being on earth! But for the sake of the elect, it will be cut short. Who will be grafted into the ELECT? The remnant population of Jews (Romans 11). They will be protected during this great tribulation.
That did not happen yet.
VS. 29 & 30 The sun will be darkened, the moon will not give its light ... and then will appear in heaven the sign of the Son of Man,
and then ALL the tribes on earth will mourn and THEY WILL SEE THE SON OF MAN COMING ON THE CLOUDS OF HEAVEN WITH POWER AND GREAT GLORY."
It's clear that the angels mentioned this moment when Jesus ascended into heaven, that He would once again return in like manner!"(Acts 1:12)
VS. 31 The trumpet call, the last trumpet, #7 I believe, Our resurrection!
VS. 35 - "Heaven and earth will pass away ..." > Clearly future.
VS. 38 & 39 compare this Great Tribulation to the FLOOD OF NOAH.
VS. 40 &41 describes our resurrection > two men and two women, one taken, one left.


So really, the Lord is speaking of His Second Coming and the end of the age and only mentions the fall of Jerusalem in verse 2. He doesn't repeat himself, doesn't go into any more detail on that particular event.
 
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Ronald

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Mat 24:39
17 “Let him who is on the housetop not go down to take anything out of his house.
18 “And let him who is in the field not go back to take his clothes.
39 “and did not know until the flood came and took them all away, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be.

You cannot take verses out of context, piece them together to form a theology. Matthew 24 speaks of two different times.After Jesus stated: "there will not be left here one stone upon another", (which dealt with the destruction of Jerusalem); the disciples asked a loaded question, that had two parts: "Tell us, [#1 when will these things be, AND [#2] what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age." Now, it could be that "the end of the age" meant something even further into the future, but let's examine.
While reading this chapter, Jesus goes back and forth, outlining first then coming back to fill in details. So the information contains different periods of time.
1. The Temple was destroyed. But did Jesus come at that time? No. Was it the end of the age? No. Spiritually, His kingdom started when He died, rose and fifty days later the Holy Spirit started the Church (32 or 33 AD.). >So if He was talking about His Resurrection / the end of the age (the OLD Covenant), then it had absolutely nothing to do with 70 AD.
Spiritually, He is our LORD, the Head of the Body, the Son of God. But has every knee on the planet bowed to Him? NO! And the Bible says in numerous scriptures that all nations will attack Jerusalem and the Lord will come against them Jesus was not speaking of His Resurrection, He was speaking of another time, His Second Coming and the end of the age. You also have to ask if all this was about 70 AD., how is that the end of the age? It's the end of Jerusalem, temporarily, but the end of the Temple in Jerusalem happened the day Jesus died.
2. The Second Coming and the end of the Age refers to a time the effects the entire planet, not just one small town. Judgment, involving many nations ... "rumors of wars, nation and nation, kingdom and kingdom, famines and earthquakes in various places ... the beginnings of birth pangs." (vs. 5-8)
>
Did these things occur in 70 AD? What are the birth pangs He was referring to? Was anything new born after 70AD? The Church was already born 38 years prior to that.
VS. 9 speaks of tribulation, Christians being put to death. Yes the Romans did but many nations are mentioned and this is the story of the future persecution of Christians to date. And now, many nations will come against the Jews and persecution of Christians has accelerated.
Jesus mentions false Christs and false prophets. Certainly He was not referring to the years leading up to the fall of Jerusalem. No, the age He is referring that will come to an end in the Church Age (within the scope of a sinful world). Satan, his demons, sin and evil will put eliminated from the planet along with false religions. The meek shall inherit the earth! Did that happen yet? NO. There will be a time when the lions, wolves, and vipers will be harmless, playing together with lambs and us, in harmony. Did that happen yet? No, Jesus is speaking of this time, a new age that will come, His Millennial Kingdom.
Vs. 14 claims the gospel will be preached to the whole world. Certainly, they just got started in the first century.
Vs.21, 22 speaks of "... a great tribulation, such has never been since the beginning of the world until now, no, and never will be."
In 70AD, many died (some say 1 million?), but the destruction of Jerusalem
cannot be compared to the worst slaughter or time of tribulation in history, certainly not the WWI, WWII. Hitler alone slaughter 10-12 million. No, this is a future time. But of course a message goes to the Jews (those in Judea ... those who still observe the Sabbath specifically) BECAUSE, many nations will be warring against them and Jesus will return to destroy them.
"... if those days had not been cut short, no human being would be saved." Meaning, no human being on earth! But for the sake of the elect, it will be cut short. Who will be grafted into the ELECT? The remnant population of Jews (Romans 11). They will be protected during this great tribulation.
That did not happen yet.
VS. 29 & 30 The sun will be darkened, the moon will not give its light ... and then will appear in heaven the sign of the Son of Man,
and then ALL the tribes on earth will mourn and THEY WILL SEE THE SON OF MAN COMING ON THE CLOUDS OF HEAVEN WITH POWER AND GREAT GLORY."
It's clear that the angels mentioned this moment when Jesus ascended into heaven, that He would once again return in like manner!"(Acts 1:12)
VS. 31 The trumpet call, the last trumpet, #7 I believe, Our resurrection!
VS. 35 - "Heaven and earth will pass away ..." > Clearly future.
VS. 38 & 39 compare this Great Tribulation to the FLOOD OF NOAH.
VS. 40 &41 describes our resurrection > two men and two women, one taken, one left.


So really, the Lord is speaking of His Second Coming and the end of the age and only mentions the fall of Jerusalem in verse 2. He doesn't repeat himself, doesn't go into any more detail on that particular event.
 
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mkgal1

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. The Temple was destroyed. But did Jesus come at that time? No. Was it the end of the age? No. Spiritually, His kingdom started when He died, rose and fifty days later the Holy Spirit started the Church (32 or 33 AD.). >So if He was talking about His Resurrection / the end of the age (the OLD Covenant), then it had absolutely nothing to do with 70 AD.
Were the levitical priests still serving in the Temple and falsely representing God even after His resurrection?

From an interview with N.T. Wright:
Tom, you describe Jesus' death as the beginning of a "revolution." What was that revolution and why does it still matter today?

Most Western Christians have been taught that Jesus died so that they could escape the results of sin and go to heaven after they die. The New Testament, however, regularly speaks of Jesus’ death as the defeat of the powers of evil that have kept the world in captivity, with the implication that the world is actually going to change as a result—through the life and work and witness of those who believe this good news. Think of Revelation 5:9–10. Humans are rescued from their sin so that they can be “a kingdom and priests serving our God, and they will reign on earth.” That began at Easter and, in the power of the Spirit, has continued ever since. Of course, the “reign” of Jesus’ people, like that of Jesus himself, is the reign of suffering love . . . but that’s a whole other story. Suffice it to say that the vocation of God’s people today is to continue to implement that revolution. - N. T. Wright: The Church Continues the Revolution Jesus Started
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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TribulationSigns said:
The "coming of the Lord of the Vineyard" is NOT the "second coming" in 70AD or the physical destruction of the temple itself. Not at all. It is the FIRST coming of Christ.
parousia70 said:
Matthew and Jesus have it happening AFTER the Son is Killed.

You have it at the Birth of the Son. The 1st Advent.
TribulationSigns said:
I think the problem with some Preterists is that they believe that a physical temple must be destroyed in order a spiritual temple could be built. That was not what Jesus had in mind.
I wonder where they get that idea....?
Hebrews 9:8 the Holy Spirit indicating this, that the way into the Holiest of All was not yet made manifest while the first tabernacle was still standing.
Excellent
Let's look at Tabernacle.........[which the Jews would know about]

4633. skene skay-nay' apparently akin to 4632 and 4639;
a tent or cloth hut (literally or figuratively):--habitation, tabernacle.
G4633 σκηνή (skēnē), occurs 20 times in 20 verses

The word "booth" in NT/NC


Judaism 101: Sukkot

Psalem 76:2 And His tent/05520 [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] is in Shalem, And His habitation/04585 m@`ownah in Tsiyown

Leviticus 23:42 `In booths/05521 cukkah ye dwell seven days all who are natives in Israel dwell in booths/05521 cukkah,
================================
John 1:14
And the Word became flesh, and tabernacles<4637> in us, and we esteem the glory of Him, glory as an Only-begotten beside Father, full of Grace and Truth.
Revelation 7:15
“Therefore they are before the throne of God, and divinely serve Him day and night in His Sanctuary.
And He who sits on the throne shall be tabernacling<4637> among them.
===============================
Heb 9:
2 for a tabernacle was prepared, the first, in which was both the lamp-stand, and the table, and the bread of the presence -- which is called 'Holy;'
3 and after the second vail a tabernacle that is called 'Holy of holies,'
6 And these things having been thus prepared, into the first tabernacle, indeed, at all times the priests do go in, performing the services,
8 the Holy Spirit this evidencing that not yet hath been manifested the way of the holy places, the first tabernacle having yet a standing;
11 And Christ being come, chief priest of the coming good things, through the greater and more perfect tabernacle not made with hands -- that is, not of this creation --

1Peter 2:5
you also, as living stones, are being built up a spiritual House, a holy priesthood,
to offer up spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ.
====================================
3 verses in Revelation:
Rev 13:6
and it did open its mouth for blasphemy toward God, to blaspheme of His name, and of His Tabernacle, and of those who in the heaven tabernacling,
Rev 15:5
And after these things I saw, and behold! opened was the Sanctuary of the Tabernacle of the Testimony in the heaven;
Rev 21:3
and I heard a great voice out of the heaven, saying, 'behold! the Tabernacle of God is with men, and He will tabernacle with them,
and they shall be His peoples, and God Himself shall be with them -- their God,
==================================
Studies In The Scriptures - Tabernacle Shadows - Chapter 1

The Camp--The Gate--
The Court--The Brazen Altar--The Laver--
The Tabernacle--The First Veil--The Table--The Lampstand--The Golden Altar--The Second Veil--The Mercy Seat and Ark
The Significance of These and Their Antitypes.

taberncle wilderness.gif


New House New Stones
mkgal1 said:
In Exodus 40:34–35, when Moses first erected the first house of God, the tabernacle, we read: “Then the cloud covered the tent of meeting, and the glory of the Lord filled the tabernacle. And Moses was not able to enter the tent of meeting because the cloud settled on it, and the glory of the Lord filled the tabernacle.” Two aspects are important: the cloud, which was God’s Spirit or presence, and the fact that it settled (or dwelled) there. The Hebrew word for “settled” is shakan, from which we get the phrase shekinah glory. It simply refers to God’s abiding presence. (Ironically, the Hebrew word for “tabernacle” throughout the book of Exodus is mishkan—the noun form of shakan—which means literally “a dwelling place.”)
Comments from site:

"Very nice. Wow. Christians are the temple now. God's Spirit dwells in us and Jesus is our high priest."

"Each article of the temple represents Christ's work of Redemption on earth and in the Heavenly Sanctuary. The Levite priest was unknowingly playing the role of a typification of Christ. They interceded for the people of Israel just as Christ intercedes for all who are in His fold"

..........................................
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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You cannot take verses out of context, piece them together to form a theology. Matthew 24 speaks of two different times.After Jesus stated: "there will not be left here one stone upon another", (which dealt with the destruction of Jerusalem); the disciples asked a loaded question, that had two parts: "Tell us, [#1 when will these things be, AND [#2] what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age." Now, it could be that "the end of the age" meant something even further into the future, but let's examine. .
The whole discourse concerns the City and Temple as does Revelation.
But at least you admit the 1st 2 verses deals with the 70 ad destruction of the Temple.

The Romans couldn't get to the Temple w/o first battling the godless Jewish Zealots and Rebels and go thru the city street by street. [Today, we would simply use a laser guided bunker busting bomb]

John 11:48
"If ever we may be letting Him thus, all shall be believing into Him, and shall be coming the Romans<4514> and they shall be taking away<142> of Us, and the Place and the Nation."


Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke's Temple/Jerusalem Discourses harmonized

Matthew 24:
1 And Jesus coming out, departed from the Temple.
And His Disciples approached Him to show to Him the buildings of the Temple.
2 And Jesus said to them, “ are ye not seeing all these?
Amen I am saying to ye, not no may be being left here stone upon stone, which not shall be being thrown-down<2647>.”
6“Yet ye shall be being about to be hearing battles and hearings of battles, be seeing! be not be being troubled<2360>, for is binding to becoming,
but not as yet the End<5056>

Mark 13:
1 And He going forth out of the Temple, one of His Disciples is saying to Him “Teacher! behold! what manner of stones and what manner of buildings”
2 And Jesus answering said to him, “thou are beholding these, the great buildings.
Not no may be being left here stone upon stone which not no may be being thrown-down<2647>
7 “Yet whenever ye should be hearing battles and hearings of battles, be seeing! be not be being troubled for is binding to be becoming,
but not as yet the End<5056>

Luke 21:

5 and of some saying concerning the Temple, that to goodly<2570> stones and votive-offerings<334> it has been adorned<2885>
6 “These which ye are beholding.
Shall be coming days in which not shall be being left stone upon stone here which not shall be being thrown-down<2647>
9 “Yet whenever ye should be hearing battles and tumults<181>, no may be being frightened<4422>, for is binding these to be becoming,
but not immediately the End<5056>

Luke 19:
41 And as He nears, beholding the City, and He laments on Her,
42 saying, "That if Thou knew and Thou, even indeed in the day, this, the toward peace of Thee,
now yet it was hid from Thy eyes.
43 That shall be arriving days upon Thee,
and Thy enemies shall be casting up a rampart/siege-work to Thee
and shall be encompassing Thee, and pressing Thee from-every-side.
44 And shall be leveling Thee and Thy offspring in Thee,
and not shall be leaving stone upon stone in Thee,
stead which not Thou knew the season of the visitation of Thee".

https://www.preteristarchive.com/JewishWars/timeline_military.html
CHRONOLOGY IMMEDIATELY SURROUNDING THE WAR
Stage 1: Murder of James the Just, "Opposition High Priest" ; Irrevocable Split: 62
Stage 2: General Revolt in Jerusalem ; Zealot Occupation of Masada: August-September 66
Stage 3: The Campaign of Cestius Gallus and the Defeat of the Twelfth Legion: October-November 66
Stage 4: End of Collaborative Government, Priesthood ; General Flight: November 66 - March 67
Part 6: Vespasian Subdues Northern and Western Palestine: December 66 - December 68
Part 7: Three-way Power Struggle within Jerusalem After Roman Retreat: January 68 - May 70
Part 8: Romans Breach City Walls and Leave Jerusalem Desolate: May 10 - September 10, 70

The Great City/Harlot/Queen Revelation chapts 17-19

Revelation 14:8
And another Messenger, second-one follows saying "She falls, She falls, Babylon the Great,
the out of the wine of the fury of the fornication of her she has given to drink all the nations".
Revelation 18:19
and they cast dust upon their heads, and cried<2896>, lamenting<2799>, weeping and mourning<3996>, saying,
"Woe! woe! the great City! in which are rich all those having ships<4143> in the sea, out of Her preciousness<5094>,
for to one hour was She was desolated<2049>.

302660_c2760f5cc7d57e7088338ce451af705b.jpg


..........................

..........................
 
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TribulationSigns

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The whole discourse concerns the City and Temple as does Revelation.
But at least you admit the 1st 2 verses dealt with the 70 ad destruction of the Temple.

I don't know who you are talking to, but I did not say that the first two verses of the Discourse was about the physical destructon of the Temple. It has to do with the fall of Old Testament Congregation. The stones Christ talked about are PEOPLE of the congregation, not physical stones of the temple/city. I do not expect you, as a Preterist, to have this discernment spiritually.


Not harmonized based on your private interpretation from the writing of Josephus.

The Great City/Harlot/Queen Revelation chapts 17-19

Revelation 14:8
And another Messenger, second-one follows saying "She falls, She falls, Babylon the Great,
the out of the wine of the fury of the fornication of her she has given to drink all the nations".
Revelation 18:19
and they cast dust upon their heads, and cried<2896>, lamenting<2799>, weeping and mourning<3996>, saying,
"Woe! woe! the great City! in which are rich all those having ships<4143> in the sea, out of Her preciousness<5094>,
for to one hour was She was desolated<2049>.

In the book of Revelation, after the Revelation of Jesus Christ and His Kingdom through the Church, chapter 14, 17, and 19 speak of the New Testament Congregation as the great city, not the physical city Jerusalem of 70AD. It seems that you are trying to apply everything in the Bible, including the Book of Revelation, to 70AD Jerusalem. Are you sure you are not a full Preterist? ;)
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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I don't know who you are talking to, but I did not say that the first two verses of the Discourse was about the physical destructon of the Temple.
Oh good grief T S. :doh:
I showed who I quoted.............look at my post again....
 
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mkgal1

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Ronald said:
You cannot take verses out of context, piece them together to form a theology. Matthew 24 speaks of two different times.After Jesus stated: "there will not be left here one stone upon another", (which dealt with the destruction of Jerusalem)

The whole discourse concerns the City and Temple as does Revelation.
But at least you admit the 1st 2 verses deals with the 70 ad destruction of the Temple

I don't know who you are talking to, but I did not say that the first two verses of the Discourse was about the physical destructon of the Temple.
If you haven't posted that - then why'd you believe it was a possibility that you were being addressed? The post that was being responded to was quoted.
 
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TribulationSigns

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If you haven't posted that - then why'd you believe it was a possibility that you were being addressed? The post that was being responded to was quoted.

Public record for the sake of readers who wants to know my position?
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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Justin Martyr (Approx. AD 150)

CHAP. XLVII.--DESOLATION OF JUDAEA FORETOLD.

That the land of the Jews, then, was to be laid waste, hear what was said by the Spirit of prophecy. And the words were spoken as if from the person of the people wondering at what had happened. They are these: "Sion is a wilderness, Jerusalem a desolation. The house of our sanctuary has become a curse, and the glory which our fathers blessed is burned up with fire, and all its glorious things are laid waste: and Thou refrainest Thyself at these things, and hast held Thy peace, and hast humbled us very sore."(6) And ye are convinced that Jerusalem has been laid waste, as was predicted. And concerning its desolation, and that no one should be permitted to inhabit it, there was the following prophecy by Isaiah: "Their land is desolate, their enemies consume it before them, and none of them shall dwell therein."(7) And that it is guarded by you lest any one dwell in it, and that death is decreed against a Jew apprehended entering it, you know very well.(First Apology, Ch. 47.)
I will have to read thru J M......thanks for that post.........

Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke's Temple/Jerusalem Discourses harmonized


Matthew 24:16
16 then those in the Judea let them be fleeing! into the mountains
17 The one on the house top no let him be coming down! to take away the things out of his house;
18 and the one in the field no let him turn back! to pick up his garment<2240>.

Mark 13:

14 Whenever yet ye may be seeing see the abomination of the desolation<2050>, the one being declared by Daniel the prophet, standing where it is not binding, (whoever is reading let him be understanding!)
Then those in the Judea, let them be fleeing into the mountains
15 The one yet upon the house top no let him be coming down! into the house
neither let him enter! to pick up anything out of his house;
16 and he who is in the field being, let him not turn back! to the things behind, to take up his garment.

Luke 21:
21 then those in the Judea,
let them be fleeing into the mountains;
and those in midst of Her, let them be coming out to country;
and those in the countries placed, let them not come be entering into Her
22 That days of vengeance these are, of the to be fulfilled<4130> all the having been written 23 “But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! For there will be great Distress in the land and Wrath upon this people.
31 In that the day, whoany shall be on the house top, and his vessels in his house, no let be coming down! to pick them up.
And the one in the field likewise, no let him turn back into the behind
==================================
Isa 22:1
Here is a message about the Valley of Vision:
What is the reason that all of you go up to the rooftops?
Eze 33:27
“Say thus to them, ‘Thus says the Lord GOD: “As I live,
surely those who are in the ruins shall fall by the sword,
and the one who is in the open field I will give to the beasts to be devoured,
and those who are in the strongholds and caves shall die of the pestilence.


302218_491ef000dc991ee2e1020d0eabbf87e7.jpg
 
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mkgal1

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mkgal1

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Quoting Ray Vander Laan ~
The Jewish Revolts

Jewish people of Jesus' day had a passionate desire for freedom from the domination of the pagan Romans and the oppressive Herod dynasty that had ruled them for many years. Revolt seethed continuously, mostly underground, for more than 100 years from the time Herod became king (37 BC) until the Romans destroyed Jerusalem and the Temple (AD 70).It is helpful to realize that this underlying struggle is the backdrop for Jesus' ministry, and why so many hoped he would be a conquering king. This helps us understand why the adulation of the crowds during the triumphal entry reduced Jesus to tears, and probably why many rejected his message.

THE RISING STORM Ever since the Romans arrived on the scene in 64 BC, the Jewish people were divided over how to respond to the rule of their often corrupt governors or the Herod family who served them. The religious community, particularly the Pharisees, believed the Jewish people were to be God's instruments on earth, from whom the Messiah would come to institute that glorious age when Israel would be a great and free nation. Many others, especially the secular community and apparently some of the Sadducees, noted the present reality of the rule of Rome and determined that cooperation was the best policy. The tyrannical rule of Rome and the paganism of its religious and Hellenistic culture heightened the contrast between the situation at hand and the messianic hopes. This difference produced increasing fragmentation of the people, and several movements developed in response.

The Zealots, an ultra-nationalistic group, proclaimed revolution to be God's solution (Acts 5:37). The Essenes withdrew, waiting anxiously for the Messiah to lead a violent overthrow of the Romans and their Jewish supporters. The Sadducees apparently practiced a form of cooperation since it was Rome who kept them securely in their position over the Temple and therefore over the people (John 11:49-50). The Herodions appeared satisfied with the Herod dynasty (Matt. 22:16). The Pharisees, condemning Rome's pagan excesses, were removed from politics and viewed the foreign oppressors as God's hand punishing his people for their unfaithfulness to the Torah. The country was in turmoil, each faction longing in a different way for the freedom they desired. To this climate of confusion, hatred, and division, many so-called messiahs came, each preaching his own brand of salvation (Acts 21:38). Jesus presented his unique message of redemption. Some followed his lead, but many did not. During feast days, especially Passover, tensions reached fever pitch and the Romans increased their military presence to prevent open revolt. The climate existed, however, for revolution to begin.

Herod Agrippa I, grandson of Herod the Great, died in AD 44 (Acts 12:19-23). The Romans appointed a series of governors called procurators, each apparently more corrupt and cruel than the previous ruler. Groups of rebel sicarii (assassins) were everywhere, killing Romans and the Jews who cooperated with them. Jonathan the high priest was assassinated. During this time, Paul was arrested (Acts 21:27-37) and accused of being one of the rebels (Acts 21:38). Popular support for the Zealots grew. The priesthood became more dependent on the Romans for security and support, and in so doing, they grew increasingly corrupt. This drove the common people toward the radical approach of the Zealots.

Felix (Acts 24) was replaced by Festus (Acts 25) as governor Both were brutal but ineffective in their attempts to quell the rising revolt. Festus died after a short time. The high priest, Ananus, took this opportunity to murder his opponents, including many in the Christian community and James, brother of Jesus. Ananus was deposed and replaced with a man named Jesus, and then another priest named Jesus. These two were in such opposition that their followers fought in the streets.

The Roman administration was in disorder, and the Zealots and sicarii flourished. Florus, another governor, attempted to stop the violence by flogging and crucifying hundreds of people. The time was ripe. The desperate hope of a messiah who would bring freedom from political oppression was ready to bear fruit.

THE REVOLT BEGINS While Christians and Jews were thrown to the wild animals by the emperor Nero in Rome, violence flared in Judea. In Caesarea, a conflict between Jews and Gentiles over activities next to the synagogue had been brewing for some time. In AD 66, on the Sabbath day, a Gentile offered a pagan sacrifice next to the entrance to the synagogue. There was an outcry from the citizens of Caesarea. The authorities in Jerusalem decided to end all foreign sacrifices, including the one for Caesar himself, in the Temple. Florus the governor, who lived in Caesarea, came to Jerusalem with troops, entered the Temple treasury, and took a large amount of gold. When people gathered to protest, Florus unleashed his legionnaires on innocent civilians of the city. Hundreds of women were raped, whipped, and crucified. More than 3,500 people were killed, including women and children.

The reaction was outrage. Mobs swarmed the streets, driving the outnumbered soldiers out of the city. The people stormed the Antonia (the Roman fort) and burned the archives, destroying records of debts. The revolt spread. The Zealots surprised the Roman garrison and occupied the fortress of Masada. From this fortress, huge supplies of weapons were distributed. Though there were voices urging calm, even the nonpolitical Pharisees joined the Zealot movement in droves.

The violence mounted within the rebel movement. Another Zealot leader, Eleazar, who then ordered the slaughter of the Roman prisoners remaining in the city, assassinated zealot leader Menahem. There was no turning back.

A BLOODY REBELLION The Gentiles in Caesarea, hearing of the violence against fellow Romans in Jerusalem, rose against the Jews of that town. Within a day, 20,OOO Jews were killed. This slaughter of men, women, and children, young and old, was repeated in many places in the country and throughout the empire, including Syria and Egypt. Fifty thousand were killed in Alexandria alone. The land ran with blood.

Gallus, the governor of Syria, advanced on Jerusalem with the twelfth legion. However, Zealots ambushed him in the mountain pass of Beth Horon and his force destroyed. The Romans had lost their advantage, and the Jews gained their national freedom (albeit temporarily) and the weapons of an imperial legion. Nero acted quickly. He ordered his leading general, Vespasian, to end the Jewish problem once and for all.

Vespasian began his campaign in AD 67 in Galilee, where a young priest, Joseph, was in command. His army numbered more than 50,000 men. Vespasian took Sepphoris, Jotapata (where Joseph surrendered to the general and became the Roman scribe Josephus), and several other towns with brutal force. He also destroyed Gamla, where the Zealot movement began, putting 10,000 people to the sword. Most of the towns of the region were left as smoking ruins. Many men were executed, often crucified, and the women and children were sold into slavery. A few were saved for the games in the arena. Galilee was again Roman.

Vespasian then conquered the coast, including Joppa, and the lands to the east of Judea. He took Jericho, which guarded the eastern approach to Jerusalem, and Emmaus, which guarded the western. Jerusalem was now isolated.

In AD 68, the campaign halted due to the suicide of Nero. As Josephus had predicted (a prediction that apparently spared his life), Vespasian became emperor. He left his son Titus to complete the campaign against Jerusalem.

The situation in Jerusalem was horrible. Several factions of Zealots converged on the city, having been defeated elsewhere. They blamed each other for their defeats. One group controlled the Temple Mount and appointed their own priest. When the Sadducee priests resisted, they were slaughtered along with 8,500 of their supporters. The sewers of the city ran with Jewish blood. Simon Bar Giora, another self-proclaimed messiah, entered the city and fought the Zealots. Confusion and terror reigned. Jerusalem was divided into three sections, each fighting the other as the Romans tightened the noose. Apparently, the Christian community, possibly remembering Jesus' words (Matt. 24:15-16), fled to the mountain regions east of the country, beginning the long separation of Jew and Christian that would bear horrible consequences later.

In the spring of AD 70, Titus arrived outside Jerusalem. His army now numbered 80,000 or more. Titus breached the third wall near the end of May and slaughtered the people of that part of the city. Five days later, the second wall fell. Half of the city belonged to the Romans. In July, the Romans built a siege wall around the city to prevent escape and to starve the citizenry.

Out of this disaster came two new religious movements: Christianity and rabbinic Judaism. The revolt drove Christianity to the ends of the earth, and it soon became a largely Gentile faith. Only today are its Jewish roots being recognized. Rabbinic Judaism became the Orthodox faith of the Jewish people of today, the descendants of the Pharisees. The Sadducees, the Essenes, and the Zealots are no more.

JESUS AND THE REVOLTS The First and Second Jewish Revolts were a disaster for God's people. The agony suffered over two millennia can be traced to those events. The same Romans crucified Jesus nearly 40 years before the first revolt. Understanding the climate that led to the revolt and his anticipation of that event makes his teaching clearer.

Often people saw in Jesus a Davidic king, a military conqueror who would rescue them from the Romans (John 6:15; Acts 1:6). However, his kingdom was not the kingdom of the Zealot or the sword (Matt. 26:51-52), though he had a Zealot disciple (Matt. 10:4). Jesus frequently commanded those he taught or healed not to tell anyone, possibly because they would misunderstand, given the political climate of the day (Mark 1:44, 7:36, 3:12, 5:43; Matt. 8:4, 9:30, 12:16; Luke 8:56). When we remember how many messiahs proclaimed their message during this time, we can understand the uniqueness of Christ's message and the reticence of his audience.

Clearly, Jesus predicted the destruction that would result from the revolt (Matt. 24:1-2). It led him to weep on one occasion as he described exactly what would happen (Luke 19:41-44). It seems that Jesus was saddened because his fellow Jews looked for military solutions to their problems rather than spiritual ones, to a political messiah rather than the Lamb of God. He warned his followers not to take part in that method of bringing in God's kingdom. The coming destruction was not God's judgment as much as it was the natural result of human beings seeking salvation through their own political and military might. Jesus' method was the opposite of such an approach.
~ The Jewish Revolt

*****************
Sorry that's so long - but it's difficult to sum up all that was going on in less words.

I believe a person is doing God's work a huge disservice to deny what was going on in the world when He was fulfilling what the prophets had proclaimed all throughout the years.​
 
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The "public record" was already there in print. Your post muddied the waters.

What you think about my posts is not my problem. At least I have some people not involved in debate engaged with me in private to discuss my position further which it works! :oldthumbsup:
 
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mkgal1

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If the Son of Man hasn't fulfilled the "coming in His kingdom in glory and salvation" then
we are still waiting for salvation. These passages were written AFTER His death and resurrection - but prior to the destruction of the Temple.

Hebrews 9:27-28Just as man is destined to die once, and after that face judgment, so Christ was sacrificed once to take away sins of many people and He will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him.”

Galatians 5:5But by faith we eagerly await through the Spirit the righteousness for which we hope.”

Romans 13:11-12 “And do this, understanding the present time. The hour has come for you to wake up from you slumber, because our salvation is nearer now than when we fist believed. The night is nearly over; the day is almost here.
 
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TribulationSigns

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If the Son of Man hasn't fulfilled the "coming in His kingdom in glory and salvation" then
we are still waiting for salvation. These passages were written AFTER His death and resurrection - but prior to the destruction of the Temple.

Hebrews 9:27-28Just as man is destined to die once, and after that face judgment, so Christ was sacrificed once to take away sins of many people and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him.”

Not only how convenient to take things out of context but the bible you used is badly translated. Please read again with KJV:

Hebrews 9:26-28
  • "For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.
  • And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:
  • So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation."
The fact is, we are living in the last days now, the end of the world, the New Covenant dispensation. It has nothing whatsoever to do with 70AD. It was not the harvest, it was not Christ's second advent, it was not when Christ appeared the second time without sin unto salvation.

..he who hath an ear, let him hear.
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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Not only how convenient to take things out of context but the bible you used is badly translated. Please read again with KJV:
Hebrews 9:26-28
  • "For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.
  • And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:
  • So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation."
The fact is, we are living in the last days now, the end of the world, the New Covenant dispensation. It has nothing whatsoever to do with 70AD. It was not the harvest, it was not Christ's second advent, it was not when Christ appeared the second time without sin unto salvation.

..he who hath an ear, let him hear.
You need to chunk the KJperVersion and let beginners read it........
Even the NKJV fixed a plethora of errors in it. No wonder you [and zionists fururists] hold the views you do.......

Hebrews 9 YLT
YLT)
Hebrews 9:
26since it had behooved him many times to suffer from the foundation of the world, but now once, at the full end of the ages, for putting away of sin through his sacrifice, he hath been manifested;
27 and as it is laid up to men once to die, and after this — judgment,
28 so also the Christ, once having been offered to bear the sins of many, a second time, apart from a sin-offering, shall appear, to those waiting for him — to salvation! [Romans 13:11]
==============================================
Matthew 24:3
Yet of Him sitting on the Mount of the Olives, the Disciples came toward to Him according to own saying "be telling to us! when shall these be being?
and what the sign of Thy parousia<3952> and full-end<4931-5055> of the Age?

Mark 13:4
Tell us! when? shall these be and what? the sign whenever may be being about<3195> these.

Luke 21
7 Yet they inquire<1905> of Him, saying, “Teacher!
when? then shall these be And what? the sign whenever may be being about<3195> these to becoming<1096>?
======================================
"THE TIME IS NIGH AT HAND" AND "COMING IN SWIFTNESS" REVELATION PROPHECY

Romans 13:
11 And this knowing the time, that hour it-is already out of sleep to be roused,
for now nearer<1452> of us the Salvation than when we believed.
12 The Night progresses, the yet Day is nigh<1448>. We should be putting off then the works of the Darkness, we should be putting on the implements of the Light.

Hebrews 8:13
in the to be saying `New', He hath made old the former.
The yet being aged and being obsolete nigh<1451> of disappearance<854>

1 Peter 4:7

Of all-things yet the End<5056> is nigh<1448>
be sane then, and be sober into the prayers,

James 5:8
be patient! and stand-fast! the hearts of ye,
that the Parousia <3952> of the Lord is nigh<1448>
 
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Even the new NKJV fixed a lot of the errors in it.

Wow. How little you know about NKJV, a deadly translation which you need to check this out. People who thought NKJV just "modernized" the words of the King James Bible. The fact is the New King James is NOT a King James Bible that they claimed it to be. It has CHANGES (not corrections) thousands of words, omitted and ruined valuable verses, and when not agreeing with the KJV, it actually has instead copied the perverted NIV, NASV, or RSV! And this you must know: Those who translated the NKJV did NOT believe God perfectly preserved His words.

No wonder you [and zionists fururists] hold the views you do...

You thought I am Zionists Fururists?! Again, you do not know who you are dealing with.

And as for the rest of your post, I am not going to respond since I already deal with you on this before. You basically are trying to take everything, from the book of Matthew to Revelation pointing to 70AD based on your own private interpretation suggesting that 70AD was the "second coming" and the "end of ages" that took place. So nope I know for a biblical fact that your Eschatology doctrine is as faulty as NKJV. :)
 
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