John 1:1 according to the Messianic Faith

[gadar perets]

Verse 3 merely describes the Logos' role in creation, it doesn't tell us when v.1 takes place. If we are going to "not read into the text" then why read into the text.

I wrote, "So the "beginning" goes at least as far back as creation." That is not reading into the text, but a fact. The "logos", however, goes much farther back than creation.

 

[Hoshiyya]

I agree with some points in this article.


What does it mean to you that God created "through Messiah"?


Assumption. This is reading the Son into the text.

Based on my personal conversations with the author of the article, the world being created through Messiah Yeshua means this:

God created the Light on day 1. This Light is not the physical light. Physical light emanates from the sun and other heat-expelling physical bodies, created on day 4. The Light is a name for Yeshua. In all subsequent creations, Yeshua had some involvement, and in that sense they were made through him. (It appears Bryan was referring to creatures and plants and such, and not basic physical phenomena like time and space which had already been created before the Light.)

God would create 90% of any given creation, and then Yeshua would decorate the things, adding little touches. For example maybe Yeshua created eyelashes, but he didn't create eyes. This is similar to the Jews creating "crowns" for certain letters, thus decorating the creation.

"Assumption. This is reading the Son into the text."

I think it is an obviously correct assumption, proven correct by scripture and targumim.

 

[Hoshiyya]

I wrote, "So the "beginning" goes at least as far back as creation." That is not reading into the text, but a fact. The "logos", however, goes much farther back than creation.

The beginning in v.1 and the things described in v.3 can be connected if you want, but there is no grammatical necessity to do so I think.

If you look at the text, you will see nothing is happening. The beginning is a purely rhetorical device, like in in John 8:44 or when one is referring to the beginning of a movie.

 

[gadar perets]

Based on my personal conversations with the author of the article, the world being created through Messiah Yeshua means this:

I was hoping for your personal understanding, not the authors. I already know he reads Messiah into the text wherever it suits him.

 

[Hoshiyya]

I was hoping for your personal understanding, not the authors. I already know he reads Messiah into the text wherever it suits him.

I accept his teachings.

Honestly, "Reading Messiah into the text" is one of the most basic aspects of Biblical interpretation. I'm very surprised you see Christological readings of scripture as anything other than natural.

 

[gadar perets]

The beginning in v.1 and the things described in v.3 can be connected if you want, but there is no grammatical necessity to do so I think.

Grammatically, no. Doctrinally, yes. Since the logos was with Elohim and Elohim created everything, then the logos was present at creation.
To YOU, what is the beginning referring to?

 

[Hoshiyya]

Grammatically, no. Doctrinally, yes. Since the logos was with Elohim and Elohim created everything, then the logos was present at creation.
To YOU, what is the beginning referring to?

The Logos was present with God, after it was created. God already made heaven and earth. This is introduced in Ge. 1:1 as a fait accomplit. The first thing to "happen" in scripture is the creation of Yeshua, the Light. But you are missing the point. The beginning is just a rhetorical device. Like once upon a time, or the beginning in John 8:44, it doesn't have the function you are ascribing to it. It is a phrase, not a specific digit on the clock.

 

[gadar perets]

Honestly, "Reading Messiah into the text" is one of the most basic aspects of Biblical interpretation. I'm very surprised you see Christological readings of scripture as anything other than natural.

We can see Messiah all throughout Scripture and such revelations can be backed up with Scripture (the Passover Lamb, wave sheaf offering, sacrifices and offerings, Temple artifacts, prophet like unto Moses, servant of YHWH, High Priest, etc.). Other supposed sightings of him in Scripture simply lead to false doctrines like the trinity.

 

[gadar perets]

The Logos was present with God, after it was created. God already made heaven and earth. This is introduced in Ge. 1:1 as a fait accomplit. The first thing to "happen" in scripture is the creation of Yeshua, the Light. But you are missing the point. The beginning is just a rhetorical device. Like once upon a time, or the beginning in John 8:44, it doesn't have the function you are ascribing to it. It is a phrase, not a specific digit on the clock.

When was the logos created? The earth and water were already created before light was created.

 

[Hoshiyya]

When was the logos created? The earth and water were already created before light was created.

Are you reading my posts?

The Light = The Logos = Yeshua.

 

[Hoshiyya]

We can see Messiah all throughout Scripture and such revelations can be backed up with Scripture (the Passover Lamb, wave sheaf offering, sacrifices and offerings, Temple artifacts, prophet like unto Moses, servant of YHWH, High Priest, etc.). Other supposed sightings of him in Scripture simply lead to false doctrines like the trinity.

I am not a trinitarian. Saying Yeshua was created on day 1 is pretty much the opposite of trinitarianism.

 

[gadar perets]

Are you reading my posts?

The Light = The Logos = Yeshua.

So, in other words, heaven, earth and water were created without the logos?

 

[gadar perets]

Saying Yeshua was created on day 1 is pretty much the opposite of trinitarianism.

I agree. I wasn't referring to you.

 

[Hoshiyya]

So, in other words, heaven, earth and water were created without the logos?

Yes. Living creatures were made through Yeshua, such as plants and animals and humans, but most of the basic physical phenomena were already present. It's like giving your son a block of paper to draw on, he needs the paper to make a picture. Ultimately, however, God is to be credited for all creative activity.

 

[gadar perets]

Yes. Living creatures were made through Yeshua, such as plants and animals and humans, but most of the basic physical phenomena were already present. It's like giving your son a block of paper to draw on, he needs the paper to make a picture. Ultimately, however, God is to be credited for all creative activity.

Psalm 33:6 By the word (LXX- Logos) of YHWH were the heavens made; and all the host of them by the breath of his mouth.
John 1:3 All things were made by [the logos]; and without [the logos] was not any thing made that was made. ​

 

[Hoshiyya]

I agree. I wasn't referring to you.

Expanding a Christological interpretation to the Light and the Logos does not "simply lead to Trinitarianism" anymore than a Christological interpretation of the symbolism of sacred objects in the temple.

 

[daq]

Psalm 33:6 By the word (LXX- Logos) of YHWH were the heavens made; and all the host of them by the breath of his mouth.
John 1:3 All things were made by [the logos]; and without [the logos] was not any thing made that was made. ​

That kinda creates a problem with "the Light" theory too, eh?
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[Hoshiyya]

Psalm 33:6 By the word (LXX- Logos) of YHWH were the heavens made; and all the host of them by the breath of his mouth.
John 1:3 All things were made by [the logos]; and without [the logos] was not any thing made that was made. ​

The word "all" can be used literally but in most cases it is not literal.

Throughout scripture, and throughout human use of language, the word "all" is used in a relative sense. A verse might say "all the people in the city were put to the sword", and the very next verse might describe survivors, as the word all is not meant literally.

If "all" is always literal, the scripture contradicts itself in the most basic and infantile of ways.

Ps. 33:6 is referring to the physical heavens, which were made over a course of 6 days. For example the sun and moon were created on day 4, and their creation was part of creating the physcial heaven.

 

[Hoshiyya]

That kinda creates a problem with "the Light" theory too, eh?
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Oh? How so?

 

[daq]

Oh? How so?

If the Logos, (or Son), is "the Light" of Genesis 1:3 then how can the Light have been created through him?
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