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Joel's End Time Prophesies

Discussion in 'Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum' started by keras, Jul 23, 2021.

  1. Jamdoc

    Jamdoc Watching and Praying Always

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    Matthew 24 has the second coming, and it parallels Revelation 6.

    and of course I'm futurist, because the things that Jesus talked about, haven't happened yet.
    I don't know how you'd bear the disappointment in thinking that this was the New Earth.
     
    Last edited: Jul 26, 2021
  2. jgr

    jgr Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Feel free to attempt to disprove history and evidence.
     
  3. jgr

    jgr Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Feel free to attempt to disprove history and evidence.
     
  4. Jamdoc

    Jamdoc Watching and Praying Always

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    What more do I need to disprove other than the world still has sin and death and Jesus did not come back in 70AD?
    the return of Jesus will be the most profound event in human history.
    Josephus wrote about the destruction of the temple, but he wrote nothing about witnessing the second coming of Christ.
    not to mention that Jesus promised there wouldn't be religious persecution as bad as the Great Tribulation ever again once it happened, it will be the worst persecution ever in human history and will never be exceeded.
    and we've had a Jewish holocaust with industrial scale killing.
     
  5. keras

    keras Writer of studies on Bible prophecy

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    You simply have no historical evidence of the events that Joel describes have happened. Let alone Revelation from Rev 6:12 onward.

    We don't have to and can't, prove that something prophesied hasn't happened, the onus is on you to prove it has.
    When was ANY of Joel's prophesies fulfilled?
    Don't say Joel 2:28-29 was fulfilled at Pentecost, 30 AD. That was just a partial fulfilment, that didn't last.
     
  6. Douggg

    Douggg anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

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    No, the end is referring to the question Jesus was asked in v3.

    3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?
     
  7. Douggg

    Douggg anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

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    The Olivet discourse (and the parallel in Luke 21) addresses the future relevant to the Jews, Israel, in the near term (to 70 ad); then the long term (the past 2000 years) ; then the end times (where we are now).

    near term - the temple and city destroyed in 70 ad

    long term - the Jews lead away captive into the nations

    end times - the Jews coming out the nations, in 1948, Israel a single nation again, not split into northern and southern kingdoms. We are living in the latter days, latter years, the parable of the fig tree generation.

    These things are so obvious. There is no reason to continue to disagree over the structure of the Olivet discourse.
     
    Last edited: Jul 26, 2021
  8. Timtofly

    Timtofly Well-Known Member

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    Would that not be newspaper interpretation? Just using the news of the day to confirm your interpretation?

    I don't think that stating this all happened changes the fact that history has played out many of those things over and over again in the last 1991 years. The NT was relatable to many generations. But the end is not until the end happens. That is the point. The end has not happened yet. When it does, that generation will know it is the end.
     
  9. Spiritual Jew

    Spiritual Jew Well-Known Member Supporter

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    How convenient to view what happened at Pentecost as only a partial fulfillment. And what do you mean it didn't last?

    Acts 2:14 Then Peter stood up with the Eleven, raised his voice and addressed the crowd: “Fellow Jews and all of you who live in Jerusalem, let me explain this to you; listen carefully to what I say. 15 These people are not drunk, as you suppose. It’s only nine in the morning! 16 No, this is what was spoken by the prophet Joel:17 “‘In the last days, God says, I will pour out my Spirit on all people. Your sons and daughters will prophesy, your young men will see visions, your old men will dream dreams.
    18 Even on my servants, both men and women, I will pour out my Spirit in those days, and they will prophesy. 19 I will show wonders in the heavens above and signs on the earth below, blood and fire and billows of smoke. 20 The sun will be turned to darkness and the moon to blood before the coming of the great and glorious day of the Lord. 21 And everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.

    While referring to what was happening around him on the day of Pentecost (people being filled with the Holy Spirit, speaking in tongues, praising God, etc.) was the fulfillment of "what was spoken by the prophet Joel" and he then proceeded to quote Joel 2:28-32. What would be occurring throughout the last days that started on the day of Pentecost? Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved. That has been happening for almost 2,000 years now, so don't tell me that it didn't last.

    As for the wonders and signs and such that Peter mentioned when quoting Joel 2? You would probably try to say that hasn't happened yet. But, Peter described them here:

    Acts 2:42 They devoted themselves to the apostles’ teaching and to fellowship, to the breaking of bread and to prayer. 43 Everyone was filled with awe at the many wonders and signs performed by the apostles. 44 All the believers were together and had everything in common. 45 They sold property and possessions to give to anyone who had need. 46 Every day they continued to meet together in the temple courts. They broke bread in their homes and ate together with glad and sincere hearts, 47 praising God and enjoying the favor of all the people. And the Lord added to their number daily those who were being saved.

    Joel 2:28-32 began being fulfilled on the day of Pentecost almost 2,000 years ago and has had an ongoing fulfillment ever since as more and more people get saved. It will continue to be fulfilled right up until "the great and glorious day of the Lord".
     
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  10. Marilyn C

    Marilyn C Newbie Supporter

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    I have heard of that Jamdoc, but that is not scriptural, as we know. The Lord created every realm and He will have His rulership in every realm. There is nothing about being `less,` or .`physically bad,` is any of God`s great kingdom. All is good, in harmony, praiseworthy, glorious.`

    `For by Him ALL THINGS were created that are in HEAVEN and the are on EARTH, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. ALL THINGS were created through Him and FOR HIM.` (Col. 1: 16)
     
  11. Marilyn C

    Marilyn C Newbie Supporter

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    `Heaven is my throne and the earth my footstool.`(Isa. 66: 1)

    `And I saw a NEW HEAVENS .... `(Rev. 21: 1)
     
  12. Douggg

    Douggg anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

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    I agree and Last Days in context of the apostles' time is on my chart of the structure of the Olivet discourse and Luke 21 parallel.

    upload_2021-7-26_18-55-44.jpeg .
     
  13. Jamdoc

    Jamdoc Watching and Praying Always

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    yeah, and that can be sky and space, the first and second heaven.
    There won't be a point to a third heaven when He dwells with men.

    I think you find the idea of angels and floating around as a ghost too compelling.
    meanwhile I have 0 interest in either.
     
  14. keras

    keras Writer of studies on Bible prophecy

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    This thread was about the prophesies of Joel.
    The Book of Joel:
    Blow the shofar in Zion: sound the alarm in the holy Land. Let all the inhabitants of the Land tremble, for the Day of the Lord is coming. A Day of darkness and dense cloud is at hand.

    The Day of the Lord is near, it’s coming is already known to those with eyes to see. It will be a mighty destruction instigated by the Almighty 1. Great will be that Day and who will be able to endure it?

    But now the Lord says: If you turn back to Me wholeheartedly with fasting, repentance and mourning for your sins, it may be I will relent and leave a blessing behind, enough for My people to make a grain or drink offering. Spare Your people, Lord 4, do not expose us to shame. Why should we cry: “Where is our God?”

    When that time comes, I the Lord will bring the nations to judgement 2 for their crimes against My people, now scattered around the world. What are you, Lebanon, Syria and Palestine? Are you thinking to redress a supposed wrong done to you? If you try force, I will quickly make your evil intentions recoil upon your own heads 3. You have already taken treasure from the Land and fought against My people, now dispersed among the nations.4 But I shall rouse them to leave from wherever they are now and bring them back to all of the holy Land 5. They will take over your possessions and live in the regenerated Land in peace and prosperity.

    The Lord roars: a mighty shout from His dwelling place6 and the heavens and the earth shudder. A huge mass appears like the dawn coming over the mountains7, such as has never been seen before and will never be again. As it strikes, fire burns everything. As it passes, flames consume all the trees and pastures. There is no escape 8 and no defense as it leaps over the mountaintops, advancing into the cities, bursting over walls, smashing through windows and leaving just a devastated waste behind. Everybody writhes in anguish and their faces turn white with fear. The whole Land is ruined, burnt and desolate 9, the streams are dry and all the trees and crops are lost.

    Just before the Day comes, the sun will be darkened and the moon will burn blood red10. Then everyone who calls upon the one true God 11 will be saved and in Jerusalem there will be survivors 12, those whom the Lord has set apart.

    I shall remove the Northern peril far from you and destroy them in the wastelands 13, the smell of their rotting bodies will rise up from the desert.

    After all that must happen, the Lord will pour out His spirit upon all mankind 14 and people will see visions and dream great things.
    Reference: The Bible Book of the Prophet Joel. REB, CJB, NIV, KJV. Abridged and rearranged chronologically.

    Scripture references:

    1/ The Day of the Lord: Deut. 7:10, Isaiah 6:11-12, Ezekiel 30:1-5, Jer. 46:10, Rev. 6:12-17

    2/ Judgement of the nations: Psalms 2:8-9, Ezekiel 7:7, Zeph. 3:8, Hab. 3:12

    3/ Recoil upon their heads: Psalms 7:12-16, Psalms 83:16, Obadiah 1:15

    4/ The Lord’s people, His faithful Christians: Isaiah 40:26-31, Isaiah 56:3, Psalms 68:20-21

    5/ The Second Exodus: Isaiah 35:1-10, Amos 9:13-15, Ezekiel 34:11-16, Jeremiah 31:27-28

    6/ A great noise will be heard around the world: Isaiah 30:30, Jer. 25:30-31, Isaiah 29:6

    7/ A Coronal Mass Ejection sunstrike, that will ‘appear like the dawn’: That is: as the earth rotates to face the sun. Deut. 32:22, Isaiah 30:26, Malachi 4:1, 2 Peter 3:10

    8/ No escape for anyone in the holy Land, the rest of the world will be severely affected, but most will survive: Isaiah 2:9, Psalms 37:20, Amos 9:1-4, Zephaniah 1:3

    9/ The holy Land, desolated: Isaiah 13:9, Isaiah 24:1-6, Jeremiah 7:20, Ezekiel 30:1-5

    10/The sun is obscured by the approaching CME and the moon will burn when the superheated mass hits it. Acts 2:19-20

    11/ We must call to the Lord for our protection and salvation: Isa. 12:4, Zeph. 3:9, Psalms 6:8-10

    12/ There will be a few Jewish survivors in Jerusalem: Isaiah 31:5, Isaiah 6:11-13

    13/ The destruction of the Gog/Magog armies, a few years later: Ezekiel 38 & 39

    14/ In the Millennium, to come after all this: Isa. 33:17-24, Psa. 47:1-9, Micah 4:1-4, Rev. 20:4-6
     
  15. Marilyn C

    Marilyn C Newbie Supporter

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    There is the -
    1. Atmospheric heavens around the earth.
    2. The Universe with planets, suns etc.
    3. The angelic realm.

    Now I do not see how they can all fit into the earth!!!!!

    As to being an angel, a ghost floating around, I think you must watch too many horror movies.

    The Body of Christ is a body of believers who will have a spiritual body, that is able to move in the higher realms. It is like your body but incorruptible and immortal. It is NOT your spirit floating around. Our spirit needs a body and that is a spiritual (immortal, incorruptible) body. (1 Cor. 15: 35 - 58, esp. v. 44)
     
  16. Douggg

    Douggg anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

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    First heaven - the earth's atmosphere
    Second heaven - the comos
    Third heaven - where God's throne is.

    The holy angels can move about in all three.

    Satan and his angels, presently, can move about in the first and second heavens. But not the third heaven, unless God summons them (ref. the book of Job).

    Certain of Satan's angels, who took part in the before the flood interaction with human women, are presently chained in darkness (some un-named dimension), Jude 1:6.

    In the middle of the seven years, Satan and his angels will be cast down to earth, and will only be able to occupy the earth's atmosphere.
     
    Last edited: Jul 27, 2021
  17. Marilyn C

    Marilyn C Newbie Supporter

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    Glad you see the three realms too Douggg.

    Now Satan and his fallen angels cannot go to the third heaven. Satan is summoned and God speaks to him where ever he (Satan) is, BUT he cannot go into the holy realm where God`s throne is. God by His Holy Spirit can speak anywhere as He is omnipresent.

    No angel has reproductive parts. There was never interaction with human women. Nonsense and demonic doctrine. God didn`t give angels the ability to have intercourse, and them forbid them. Each angel was made separate. They are not a race of beings. There is no marriage in heaven by us or angels.

    I agree on you last point about Satan and his fallen angels being cast down to the earth, and thus their authority and power is more limited, than when they usurped the Principalities and Powers realm, (Universe).
     
  18. Douggg

    Douggg anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

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    When do these people come out of the nations, and who are they? Are you claiming they are the church? And the church coming out of the nations is after the cataclysmic solar event that will destroy most of the population of the middle east?

    Ezekiel 38:8 After many days thou shalt be visited: in the latter years thou shalt come into the land that is brought back from the sword, and is gathered out of many people, against the mountains of Israel, which have been always waste: but it is brought forth out of the nations, and they shall dwell safely all of them.


    Ezekiel 39:23 And the heathen shall know that the house of Israel went into captivity for their iniquity: because they trespassed against me, therefore hid I my face from them, and gave them into the hand of their enemies: so fell they all by the sword.

    Your scenario of the church, of over a billion believers, replacing the current population over there in tiny Israel and re-populating it into a new Christian nation you call Beulah, does not fit, Keras, and cannot fit.
     
  19. Douggg

    Douggg anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

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    What then does that they (certain of the angels) kept not their first estate - that God placed them in chains in darkness - refer to? If they did not co-habitate among humans?

    Jude 1:6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.
     
  20. DavidPT

    DavidPT Well-Known Member

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    Even in the OT not everything needs to be understood in the literal sense every time. If one takes Genesis 6 in the literal sense, that it involved fallen angels having sex with earth women then producing literal demonic offspring, this means that nothing in Genesis 6 even involves any of the male earthlings living at the time. It would mean God was not angry with them as well. He was only angry with the fallen angels, the earth women that mated with them, and the offspring they produced, yet, God also destroyed all male earthlings in the flood as well.

    Genesis 6:5 And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.


    This verse right here proves that the verse that proceded it, it's not to be taken in the literal sense. Verse 5 is in regards to verse 4. In verse 5 man is meaning mankind, both male and female combined, yet, verse 4 if taken in the literal sense, is not even involving the male species of mankind, but is only involving the female species of mankind.

    Genesis 6:3 And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years.


    And the same with verse 3. Man is meaning mankind, both male and female combined. And if one takes the preceding verse in the literal sense, that verse is not even pertaining to mankind as a whole, but is only pertaining to the female species.
     
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