Joel2 vs Acts2's outpourings
- Thread starter zeke37
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on your first question, the Coming of the Lord is described in more than one analogy.
in one aspect, that day will come as a thief,
because folks that are in the dark/of the night won't be expecting it...
they will think things are fine....
but those in the light/of the day will be expecting it. THAT day will not overtake them as a thief
remember that in one analogy, the enemy also comes as a thief.
many analogies....
ps. i don't think anyone will hear the first 6 trumps....
the trump that heralds His Coming, will be heard by all, on that day
whether that day is unexpected (dark/night) or expected (light/day), dependant on the individual
.
in one aspect, that day will come as a thief,
because folks that are in the dark/of the night won't be expecting it...
they will think things are fine....
but those in the light/of the day will be expecting it. THAT day will not overtake them as a thief
remember that in one analogy, the enemy also comes as a thief.
many analogies....
ps. i don't think anyone will hear the first 6 trumps....
the trump that heralds His Coming, will be heard by all, on that day
whether that day is unexpected (dark/night) or expected (light/day), dependant on the individual
.
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lol, why would you suggest that
no Kal, i said i don't think anyone will. (i am part of "anyone")
i'm not one of THOSE kinda people that thinks they are the only one that has the truth.
this discussion is a continuation from another thread, so as not to derail that other thread.
no Kal, i said i don't think anyone will. (i am part of "anyone")
i'm not one of THOSE kinda people that thinks they are the only one that has the truth.
this discussion is a continuation from another thread, so as not to derail that other thread.
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Some already have ...
The Book of Revelation Is Happening NOW! You Must See This! The 7 Trumpets Are Blowing! - YouTube
The Lord comes in multiple watches ...
Luke 12:35 Let your loins be girded about, and your lights burning; 36 And ye yourselves like unto men that wait for their lord, when he will return from the wedding; that when he cometh and knocketh, they may open unto him immediately. 37 Blessed are those servants, whom the lord when he cometh shall find watching: verily I say unto you, that he shall gird himself, and make them to sit down to meat, and will come forth and serve them. 38 And if he shall come in the second watch, or come in the third watch, and find them so, blessed are those servants.
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1st. the 5th trump has some key words in it
we are taught that those "locusts/scorpions" cannot kill anyone.
and i know that those helecopters can.
2nd. the "watch" refers to the time of day...1st watch or second, or third.
it does not imply taht Christ comes back more than once or in waves.
it implies that we do not even know the HOUR of His Coming.
it could be during any watch.
but i was specifically talking about actually literally hearing trumpet blasts,
not discerning what it might be
we are taught that those "locusts/scorpions" cannot kill anyone.
and i know that those helecopters can.
2nd. the "watch" refers to the time of day...1st watch or second, or third.
it does not imply taht Christ comes back more than once or in waves.
it implies that we do not even know the HOUR of His Coming.
it could be during any watch.
but i was specifically talking about actually literally hearing trumpet blasts,
not discerning what it might be
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Not everyone agrees, Zeke. There are a number of interesting nuances here. Consider what "Barnes' Notes on the Bible": Revelation 9:5 They were not given power to kill them, but only to torture them for five months. And the agony they suffered was like that of the sting of a scorpion when it strikes a man.
And to them it was given - There is here the same indefiniteness as in the former verse, the impersonal verb being here also used. The writer does not say by whom this power was given, whether by God, or by the leader of the host. It may be admitted, however, that the most natural interpretation is to suppose that it was given them by God, and that this was the execution of his purpose in this case. Still it is remarkable that this is not directly affirmed, and that the language is so general as to admit of the other application. The fact that they did not kill them, but tormented them - if such a fact should be found to exist - would be in every sense a fulfillment of what is here said.
That they should not kill them - This is in accordance with the nature of the symbol. The locusts do not themselves destroy any living creature; and the sting of the scorpion, though exceedingly painful, is not usually fatal. The proper fulfillment of this would be found in what would not be generally fatal, but which would diffuse misery and wretchedness. (Compare Revelation 9:6.) Perhaps all that would be necessarily meant by this would be, not that individual people would not be killed, but that they would be sent to inflict plagues and torments rather than to take life, and that the characteristic effects of their appearing would be distress and suffering rather than death. There may be included in the fair interpretation of the words, "general distress" and "sorrow"; acts of oppression, cruelty, and violence; such a condition of public suffering that people would regard death as a relief if they could find it.
That they should not kill them - This is in accordance with the nature of the symbol. The locusts do not themselves destroy any living creature; and the sting of the scorpion, though exceedingly painful, is not usually fatal. The proper fulfillment of this would be found in what would not be generally fatal, but which would diffuse misery and wretchedness. (Compare Revelation 9:6.) Perhaps all that would be necessarily meant by this would be, not that individual people would not be killed, but that they would be sent to inflict plagues and torments rather than to take life, and that the characteristic effects of their appearing would be distress and suffering rather than death. There may be included in the fair interpretation of the words, "general distress" and "sorrow"; acts of oppression, cruelty, and violence; such a condition of public suffering that people would regard death as a relief if they could find it.
If not for discernment, then why even bother to describe the trumpets. The purpose of the trumpets would seem to be so that the watchmen can discern the time.
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Yes i realize that.
But again, my coment was based off of another posters comment.
i said i doubt anyone will hear the first 6 trumps literally.
IMO all will literally hear the 7th.
plus i don't buy the helecopters being the 5th trump.
sorry. heard that one years ago, dismissed it then too.
But again, my coment was based off of another posters comment.
i said i doubt anyone will hear the first 6 trumps literally.
IMO all will literally hear the 7th.
plus i don't buy the helecopters being the 5th trump.
sorry. heard that one years ago, dismissed it then too.
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So ... your disagreement begins with the 5th trumpet then?
You agree that the preceding four trumpets have been fulfilled?
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Fair enough ...
FWIW, I tend to agree that most people have not, or will not, hear the trumpets. That much seems to be indicated by prophecy.
Rev 3:1 And unto the angel of the church in Sardis write; These things saith he that hath the seven Spirits of God, and the seven stars; I know thy works, that thou hast a name that thou livest, and art dead. 2 Be watchful, and strengthen the things which remain, that are ready to die: for I have not found thy works perfect before God. 3 Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee. 4 Thou hast a few names even in Sardis which have not defiled their garments; and they shall walk with me in white: for they are worthy. 5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels. 6 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.
It seems that even after the sixth trumpet, most people don't still won't get it.
Rev 9:12 One woe is past; and, behold, there come two woes more hereafter.
13 And the sixth angel sounded, and I heard a voice from the four horns of the golden altar which is before God, 14 Saying to the sixth angel which had the trumpet, Loose the four angels which are bound in the great river Euphrates. 15 And the four angels were loosed, which were prepared for an hour, and a day, and a month, and a year, for to slay the third part of men. 16 And the number of the army of the horsemen were two hundred thousand thousand: and I heard the number of them. 17 And thus I saw the horses in the vision, and them that sat on them, having breastplates of fire, and of jacinth, and brimstone: and the heads of the horses were as the heads of lions; and out of their mouths issued fire and smoke and brimstone. 18 By these three was the third part of men killed, by the fire, and by the smoke, and by the brimstone, which issued out of their mouths. 19 For their power is in their mouth, and in their tails: for their tails were like unto serpents, and had heads, and with them they do hurt.
20 And the rest of the men which were not killed by these plagues yet repented not of the works of their hands, that they should not worship devils, and idols of gold, and silver, and brass, and stone, and of wood: which neither can see, nor hear, nor walk: 21 Neither repented they of their murders, nor of their sorceries, nor of their fornication, nor of their thefts.
13 And the sixth angel sounded, and I heard a voice from the four horns of the golden altar which is before God, 14 Saying to the sixth angel which had the trumpet, Loose the four angels which are bound in the great river Euphrates. 15 And the four angels were loosed, which were prepared for an hour, and a day, and a month, and a year, for to slay the third part of men. 16 And the number of the army of the horsemen were two hundred thousand thousand: and I heard the number of them. 17 And thus I saw the horses in the vision, and them that sat on them, having breastplates of fire, and of jacinth, and brimstone: and the heads of the horses were as the heads of lions; and out of their mouths issued fire and smoke and brimstone. 18 By these three was the third part of men killed, by the fire, and by the smoke, and by the brimstone, which issued out of their mouths. 19 For their power is in their mouth, and in their tails: for their tails were like unto serpents, and had heads, and with them they do hurt.
20 And the rest of the men which were not killed by these plagues yet repented not of the works of their hands, that they should not worship devils, and idols of gold, and silver, and brass, and stone, and of wood: which neither can see, nor hear, nor walk: 21 Neither repented they of their murders, nor of their sorceries, nor of their fornication, nor of their thefts.
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yep...again, i was talking about literal trumpet blasts being heard....
but i think the elect shall indeed be able to discern the trumps.
but i think the elect shall indeed be able to discern the trumps.
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B
Bible2
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It isn't, insofar as Joel 2:1-27 can refer poetically to a literal locust invasion which destroyed ancient Israel's crops (Joel 2:25) sometime before the Acts 2 day of Pentecost in the 1st century AD (Joel 2:28-29, Acts 2:16-18). For the day of the Lord in Joel 2:1-27 can refer to an ancient day of the Lord, like the ancient day of the Lord in Jer. 46:2,10. Both of these ancient days of the Lord can be different than the future day of the Lord (Joel 2:31) which won't start until sometime after the future trib's 6th seal (Rev. 6:12, Joel 2:31). For the future day of the Lord/Christ (2 Thes. 2:2) won't begin until Jesus' 2nd coming (1 Cor. 1:7-8, 2 Thes. 2:1-2, 1:7-10), which won't occur until Rev. 19:7-21, immediately after the future trib of Rev. chs. 6-18 (Mt. 24:29-31).
Joel 2:1's references only to Zion, the holy mountain, and the land, can mean it's referring to only a localized day of the Lord which affected only the ancient Israelites in their land. Joel 2:2 could refer to a huge cloud of literal locusts darkening the skies of Israel in ancient times. Just as literal ants can be referred to as "a people" (Hebrew: "am", H5971) (Prov. 30:25), so a huge cloud of literal, devouring locusts could be referred to poetically as "a great people (H5971) and a strong" (Joel 2:2). Joel 2:3b describes the effects of a literal locust invasion, which could be poetically expressed as being like a devouring fire (Joel 2:3). Joel 2:4 could describe literal locusts running along the ground as looking like little horses running along the ground. Joel 2:5 could poetically describe literal locusts leaping high, and devouring every plant, down even to its stubble. "A strong people set in battle array" (Joel 2:5) brings to mind another poetic description of a literal locust swarm: "go they forth all of them by bands" (i.e. distributed into ranks: Hebrew "chatsats", H2686) (Prov. 30:27).
Joel 2:6 can poetically describe the grief and emotional devastation brought upon the ancient Israelites as they witnessed all their crops being devoured by the locust swarm. Joel 2:7 could describe literal locusts running along the ground and climbing up walls. "They shall march every one on his ways, and they shall not break their ranks" (Joel 2:7) again brings to mind another poetic description of a literal locust swarm: "go they forth all of them by bands" (Prov. 30:27). Joel 2:8 can refer to the locusts in the swarm not attacking each other, and to how useless a sword was in fighting against them. Because locusts are so small and have an exoskeleton, they could just bounce off a swinging sword as they flew along. Joel 2:9 can refer to literal locusts running along the ground through a city, climbing up onto the walls of buildings and into windows looking for food anywhere they can.
Joel 2:10 can be poetic hyperbole to express how terrible the literal locust swarm was to the land of Israel, and how the swarm was so vast it darkened the skies of Israel completely. The original Hebrew word (erets, H0776) translated as "the earth" (Joel 2:10) can simply refer to a local area of land (e.g. Gen. 2:11,13), like, e.g., our word "earthquake" today can refer to only a local event. Joel 2:11 shows the locust swarm wasn't from Satan, fallen angels, or evil nephilim, but was considered by God to be his own "army", as it were (Joel 2:25b). Joel 2:20 could mean God's literal-locust "army" (Joel 2:25b) came from the north into the land of ancient Israel and the swarm was eventually sent off by God into the barren desert, where the locusts died of starvation and their millions of dead bodies rotted in the sun and sent up a great stench. Joel 2:25 shows it was literal locusts (and other plant-destroying insects) which God considered to be "my great army which I sent among you".
Joel 2:28-29 shows the literal locusts devoured ancient Israel's crops sometime before the Acts 2 day of Pentecost in the 1st century AD. For Joel 2:28-29 happened "afterward", after the literal locust invasion of Joel 2:1-27. And Joel 2:28-29 happened on the Acts 2 day of Pentecost in the 1st century AD (Acts 2:16-18).
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B
Bible2
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That's right, for the last "days" began in the 1st century AD with Jesus' 1st coming (Heb. 1:2) and the Holy Spirit's coming at the Pentecost in Acts 2 (Acts 2:16-17). The last "days" are the last 3 roughly 1,000-year "days" (2 Pet. 3:8) of the 7 roughly 1,000-year "days" from the creation of Adam in roughly 4,000 BC to the future end of the present earth and the creation of the new earth (Rev. 21:1) in roughly 3,000 AD. So the last "days" are the roughly 3,000 years from Jesus' 1st coming to sometime after the future millennium (Rev. 20:4-6), which will be during the last roughly 1,000-year "day".
In Jn. 6:39-40 and Jn. 12:48, the original Greek word translated as the last "day" (hemera, G2250) doesn't have to mean the last 24-hour day (as is sometimes claimed), but can be used figuratively to refer to a much longer period of time (e.g. see the Greek of 2 Cor. 6:2, 2 Pet. 3:8, and Jn. 8:56). Jn. 6:39-40 and Jn. 12:48 will both occur in the last period of time of this present earth, but they won't occur on the same 24-hour day (Rev. 20:5). When Jesus returns, only the church will be physically resurrected and finally-judged (1 Cor. 15:21-23, Rev. 20:5, Ps. 50:3-5, cf. Mk. 13:27; Mt. 25:19-30, 2 Cor. 5:10, Lk. 12:45-48). The physically resurrected church (including those in the church who'd been beheaded by the Antichrist) will then reign on the earth with the returned Jesus for 1,000 years (Rev. 20:4-6, 5:10, 2:26-29). Only sometime after the 1,000 years and the subsequent Gog/Magog rebellion are over (Rev. 20:7-10, Ezek. chs. 38-39) will the rest of the dead be physically resurrected and finally-judged at the white throne judgment (Rev. 20:11-15).
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Mt. 24:36,42,44 is referring to Jesus' 2nd coming (Mt. 24:37,42,44), which Jesus had just finished saying won't happen until immediately after the tribulation (Mt. 24:29-31). So in Mt. 24:42,44, Jesus could mean that only if believers don't watch (stay awake, spiritually) during the tribulation, the 2nd coming will happen at an hour they don't know/think not (cf. the if principle of Rev. 3:3b). In the immediate context of Mt. 24:42,44, Jesus suggests that it is possible for believers to know when the 2nd coming will occur and to watch for it (Mt. 24:43-44a, 1 Thes. 5:4). Also, Jesus says "of that day and hour knoweth no man" (Mt. 24:36), he doesn't say "of that day and hour no man will know". So it's possible that at some point in the future, some believers will come to know the date (as in the year, month, and day) of the 2nd coming before it happens. Also, if we mistakenly think that Jesus can come today or tomorrow (as is sometimes claimed by the pre-trib view), then how can we also claim he will come when nobody thinks he will (Mt 24:44b)?
Also, compare the following: "of that day and hour knoweth no man" (Mt. 24:36); "the things of God knoweth no man" (1 Cor. 2:11). If we claim that the 1st verse means that no man will ever know the date of the 2nd coming until it happens, then to be consistent we would have to also claim that the 2nd verse means that no man, not even believers, can know the things of God until the 2nd coming happens. But who would say that? For the Spirit can currently reveal to believers the things of God (1 Cor. 2:12-13), he can currently guide believers into all truth and show them what will happen in the future (Jn. 16:13), including the date of the 2nd coming before it happens. For, again, Jesus suggests that it is possible for believers to know when the 2nd coming will occur and to watch for it (Mt. 24:43-44a, 1 Thes. 5:4).
Also, what Amos 3:7 says would include the 2nd coming: Surely God the Father won't send Jesus back without having first revealed to some believers the secret of the date of the 2nd coming. It could occur on the 1,335th day after the abomination of desolation (possibly a standing, android image of the Antichrist) is set up in a 3rd Jewish temple (Dan. 12:11-12, Rev. 16:15, Dan. 11:31,36, Mt. 24:15).
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