Job 33:6

[thankfulttt]

My Bible says, "Behold, I am according to thy wish in God's stead: I also am formed out of the clay. Why do none of the other translations have, "I am according to thy wish in God's stead"?

 

[Archie the Preacher]

The section from which this verse is taken begins in chapter 32, near the beginning. The speaker - who is quoted in the verse in question - is Elihu, the youngest of the other speakers in the discussion between Job and his friends. Elihu is speaking to Job.

So it seems unlikely that Elihu really thinks he was 'created according to thy (Job's) wish...' The New English Translation renders the phrase as Look, I am just like you in relation to God; which makes more sense - at least in modern English - in context.

Other translations seem to render the phrase much the same (I'm the same...) in meaning if not in the same words.

In answer to your question of "Why do none of the other translations have...?" The answer is simple: The English language has changed since the 17th Century. Both the formation of sentences and the meanings of words have changed in usage. The actual meaning is seemingly the same. This is the weakness and failure of the King James version of the Bible. I'm sure in another four hundred years - should the Lord please to wait - current translations of the Bible will be viewed as 'quaint' in wording and easy to misunderstand for the same reasons.

 

[thankfulttt]

The section from which this verse is taken begins in chapter 32, near the beginning. The speaker - who is quoted in the verse in question - is Elihu, the youngest of the other speakers in the discussion between Job and his friends. Elihu is speaking to Job.

So it seems unlikely that Elihu really thinks he was 'created according to thy (Job's) wish...' The New English Translation renders the phrase as Look, I am just like you in relation to God; which makes more sense - at least in modern English - in context.

Other translations seem to render the phrase much the same (I'm the same...) in meaning if not in the same words.

In answer to your question of "Why do none of the other translations have...?" The answer is simple: The English language has changed since the 17th Century. Both the formation of sentences and the meanings of words have changed in usage. The actual meaning is seemingly the same. This is the weakness and failure of the King James version of the Bible. I'm sure in another four hundred years - should the Lord please to wait - current translations of the Bible will be viewed as 'quaint' in wording and easy to misunderstand for the same reasons.

The Hebrew word transliterated "peh" is found in the Hebrew text. The Hebrew word "peh" is interpreted in the English as "mouth", or sometimes narrow opening, as in the neck of a bottle.

There is no word translated for the word "peh" in the new translations. Why not?

 

[Archie the Preacher]

The Hebrew word transliterated "peh" is found in the Hebrew text. The Hebrew word "peh" is interpreted in the English as "mouth", or sometimes narrow opening, as in the neck of a bottle.

There is no word translated for the word "peh" in the new translations. Why not?

What word is the translation for פה in the KJV, then?

 

[thankfulttt]

What word is the translation for פה in the KJV, then?

Wish. According to thy "wish". You can replace "wish" with "mouth" and you have the same meaning. According to your mouth Job.

Terry

PS The Hebrew Interlinear Bible puts it this way, "as bidding of you".

 

[Archie the Preacher]

Therefore, Terry; Elihu was fashioned at Job's wish in the place of God?

Sorry, that doesn't make sense to me. How did Job get the horsepower to put Elihu in God's place?

 

[thankfulttt]

Therefore, Terry; Elihu was fashioned at Job's wish in the place of God?

Sorry, that doesn't make sense to me. How did Job get the horsepower to put Elihu in God's place?

That isn't what it says. Job asked for a mediator made of clay to stand between him and God. Job asked that this mediator do two things.

1. Remove the rod. Job 9:34 & Job 13:21

2. Remove the fear. Job 9:34 & Job 13:21

Then would Job speak.

When Elihu came on the scene he answered Job's request.

Job 33:7 Behold, my terror shall not make thee afraid, neither shall my hand be heavy upon thee.

I believe God sent Elihu in answer to Job's request, so when Elihu said, "Behold, I am according to your wish, in God's place", this is exactly what Job asked for." Elihu was the mediator that Job asked for. Job wanted a judge that he wasn't afraid of, so he could have a fair trial. Job had said God would laugh at the trial of the innocent. This is why Elihu was a young man. His presence did not intimidate Job.

Grace and Peace, Terry

 

[Archie the Preacher]

That isn't what it says. Job asked for a mediator made of clay to stand between him and God. Job asked that this mediator do two things.
- snip -
I believe God sent Elihu in answer to Job's request, so when Elihu said, "Behold, I am according to your wish, in God's place", this is exactly what Job asked for." Elihu was the mediator that Job asked for. Job wanted a judge that he wasn't afraid of, so he could have a fair trial. Job had said God would laugh at the trial of the innocent. This is why Elihu was a young man. His presence did not intimidate Job.

That doesn't work very well. God speaks directly to Job later; so Elihu was not a mediator. (Christ on the other hand... He is a mediator.)

The phrasing 'I am just like you in relation to God' says exactly what you claim Elihu was telling Job. Something on the order of 'Relax, I'm not a threat to you'.

So what's your problem with a modern translation changing the wording while retaining the meaning?

Go ahead, spring the trap. Like I don't see it coming.

 

[PrincetonGuy]

The Hebrew word transliterated "peh" is found in the Hebrew text. The Hebrew word "peh" is interpreted in the English as "mouth", or sometimes narrow opening, as in the neck of a bottle.

There is no word translated for the word "peh" in the new translations. Why not?

Job 33:6a. The Hebrew reads, לאל כפיך הן־אני כפי. (See, before God I am as you are)

כפיך (“peh”) is translated in most recent translations of the Bible as “as you are,” “like you,” or something similar.

 

[brinny]

My Bible says, "Behold, I am according to thy wish in God's stead: I also am formed out of the clay. Why do none of the other translations have, "I am according to thy wish in God's stead"?

Interesting. A few posts down you mentioned Elihu as being there in the "stead" of God. Only thing is, that in all of what Elihu says to Job (all of it) it summarizes a complete lack of understanding of God or anything edifying or helpful to the incredibly and inexplicably grieving and suffering Job.

Thank you kindly.

 

[thankfulttt]

That doesn't work very well. God speaks directly to Job later; so Elihu was not a mediator. (Christ on the other hand... He is a mediator.)

That God speaks directly to Job after Elihu's discourse does not negate Elihu as the intermediate to stand in God's place, which Job had requested.

Job asks for a mediator such as Elihu to stand between Job and God. (Chapters 9 and 13). We then come to chapter 33 and we are presented with the courtroom scene. Elihu starts by requiring Job to stand up and plead his case. (Job 33:5) Don't you have to stand up when you come into the courtroom before the judge? Job then tells Job that he is standing in God's place, which by the way is exactly what Job requested. Then, verse 9, Elihu says he has heard Job's plea of innocence. Another process of the court, pleading guilty or innocent. In verses 10-11 we hear of Job's charges against God. Elihu finds Job guilty of being unjust. (Verse 12)

Elihu then goes on to explain to Job why he is wrong. Elihu say God has spoken to him in dreams and visions of the night, which Job had previously acknowledged, which was for the purpose of keeping pride from him. Elihu then says God takes the next step, which is chastening with pain, which happened to Job. Then Elihu tells Job that he needs to see God's righteousness, and that that righteousness is the ransom to keep Job back from the pit.

The phrasing 'I am just like you in relation to God' says exactly what you claim Elihu was telling Job. Something on the order of 'Relax, I'm not a threat to you'.

"I am just like you in relation to God", is not the same as, "I am according to your wish in God's stead".

So what's your problem with a modern translation changing the wording while retaining the meaning?

Go ahead, spring the trap. Like I don't see it coming.

Modern translations pride themselves on being closer to the original. How then can that be true when they completely ignored translating the Hebrew word for mouth.

The best guess is that they all used the Septuagint. But then you have to ask yourself, why did they go to a translation of the Hebrew when they could have used the Hebrew?

Best regards Terry

 

[PrincetonGuy]

Modern translations pride themselves on being closer to the original. How then can that be true when they completely ignored translating the Hebrew word for mouth.

The best guess is that they all used the Septuagint. But then you have to ask yourself, why did they go to a translation of the Hebrew when they could have used the Hebrew?

Best regards Terry

The recent translations of the Bible do NOT ignore the Hebrew text, and they do NOT translate from the Septuagint—They translate from the Hebrew text!

Job 33:6a. לאל כפיך הן־אני כפי. (See, before God I am as you are)

כפיך (“peh”) is translated in most recent translations of the Bible as “as you are,” “like you,” or something similar.

Job 33:6 See, before God I am as you are;
I too was formed from a piece of clay. (NRSV)

The Hebrew word פֶּה (“peh”) [פֶּה is the lexical form of כפיך] has a wide variety of meanings in addition to “mouth.” It sometimes means, “according to the mouth of ” or “in proportion to,” and has the latter meaning in Job 33:6, Exodus 16:21, and Leviticus 25:52.

Job 33:6 Behold, I am according to thy wish in God's stead: I also am formed out of the clay. (KJV)

Job 33:6 See, before God I am as you are;
I too was formed from a piece of clay. (NRSV)

Exodus 16:21 And they gathered it every morning, every man according to his eating: and when the sun waxed hot, it melted. (KJV)

Exodus 16:21 Morning by morning they gathered it, as much as each needed; but when the sun grew hot, it melted. (NRSV)


Leviticus 25:52 And if there remain but few years unto the year of jubile, then he shall count with him, and according unto his years shall he give him again the price of his redemption. (KJV)

Leviticus 25:52 and if few years remain until the jubilee year, they shall compute thus: according to the years involved they shall make payment for their redemption. (NRSV)

 

[thankfulttt]

The recent translations of the Bible do NOT ignore the Hebrew text, and they do NOT translate from the Septuagint—They translate from the Hebrew text!

Job 33:6a. לאל כפיך הן־אני כפי. (See, before God I am as you are)

כפיך (“peh”) is translated in most recent translations of the Bible as “as you are,” “like you,” or something similar.

Job 33:6 See, before God I am as you are;
I too was formed from a piece of clay. (NRSV)

The Hebrew word פֶּה (“peh”) [פֶּה is the lexical form of כפיך] has a wide variety of meanings in addition to “mouth.” It sometimes means, “according to the mouth of ” or “in proportion to,” and has the latter meaning in Job 33:6, Exodus 16:21, and Leviticus 25:52.

Job 33:6 Behold, I am according to thy wish in God's stead: I also am formed out of the clay. (KJV)

Job 33:6 See, before God I am as you are;
I too was formed from a piece of clay. (NRSV)

Exodus 16:21 And they gathered it every morning, every man according to his eating: and when the sun waxed hot, it melted. (KJV)

Exodus 16:21 Morning by morning they gathered it, as much as each needed; but when the sun grew hot, it melted. (NRSV)


Leviticus 25:52 And if there remain but few years unto the year of jubile, then he shall count with him, and according unto his years shall he give him again the price of his redemption. (KJV)

Leviticus 25:52 and if few years remain until the jubilee year, they shall compute thus: according to the years involved they shall make payment for their redemption. (NRSV)

PrincetonGuy Greetings,

The book of Job has "peh" occurring 34 times. 31 times it is translated mouth. Once commandment, once collar, and once edge. These three separate words are consistent with the word mouth. Commandment has to do with the mouth as that is where the commandment originates. Collar has to do with the narrow opening as in the mouth. Likewise the biting edge of the sword is also consistent. If you have studied Job you will know that the words are very distinctive in relation to other books.

As to the other translations not using the Septuagint, can you explain why the NASB does not list "peh"(6310) in Job 33:6?

Best regards Terry

After further investigation neither the NIV, RSV, ESV, NASB, and the ASV contain "peh" in Job 33:6

Could you tell me from which manuscript they translated from that did not contain "peh" in Job 33:6?

 

[PrincetonGuy]

As to the other translations not using the Septuagint, can you explain why the NASB does not list "peh"(6310) in Job 33:6?
Best regards Terry

The NASB translates “peh” in the Hebrew text as “like you”.

Job 33:6. “Behold, I belong to God like you; I too have been formed out of the clay.” (NASB, 1995)

 

[thankfulttt]

The NASB translates “peh” in the Hebrew text as “like you”.

Job 33:6. “Behold, I belong to God like you; I too have been formed out of the clay.” (NASB, 1995)

The concordance does not show a "peh" for the NASB in Job 33:6.

PS Maybe I am not being clear. If a translation does list a Hebrew word for a particular verse, how can they then translate it?

 

[PrincetonGuy]

The concordance does not show a "peh" for the NASB in Job 33:6.

PS Maybe I am not being clear. If a translation does list a Hebrew word for a particular verse, how can they then translate it?

I have no idea what is being spoken of. What concordance?

 

[kiwimac]

Just another KJV only poster. Simply ignore them and maybe they'll take their heresy and go away.

 

[thankfulttt]

I have no idea what is being spoken of. What concordance?

Strong's Concordance Hebrew and Greek Lexicon lists all the Hebrew words that are used for the NASB, NIV, ESV, RSV, ASV, as well as twelve other translations.

In the book of Job they word "peh"(H6310) is not included in Job 33:6 in the above translations. "peh"(H6310) occurs 35 times in the Book of Job in the above translations, but it is missing from Job 33:6.

The word "peh"(H6310)/mouth or the equivalent in Greek does not occur in the Septuagint.

I hope this makes it clear.

Grace and peace in Christ, Terry.

 

[thankfulttt]

Just another KJV only poster. Simply ignore them and maybe they'll take their heresy and go away.

Should we take a blind eye to what wish not to see?

The fact is the new translations, at least the ones mentioned above, do not contain the word "peh" in the manuscripts from which they translated, therefore they had no reason to do a translation of the word. That is why mouth, wish, bidding, or any such equivalent does not exist in those translations.

Don't take my word for it, check it out.

Terry

 

[PrincetonGuy]

The word "peh"(H6310)/mouth or the equivalent in Greek does not occur in the Septuagint.

That is correct. In Greek, there are no words that are equivalent to the Hebrew word "peh" (H6310). Therefore, the Septuagint reads,

Job 33:6. ἐκ πηλοῦ διήρτισαι σὺ ὡς καὶ ἐγώ, ἐκ τοῦ αὐτοῦ διηρτίσμεθα.

The words “ὡς καὶ ἐγώ” mean, “as also I”, expressing the concept of “in proportion to [me]”.