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Jews going to heaven?

Discussion in 'Messianic Judaism' started by solo66 man, Feb 18, 2002.

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  1. solo66 man

    solo66 man Well-Known Member

    +2
    According to revelation, there will be 144,000 Jews in heaven.
     
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  2. JohnR7

    JohnR7 Well-Known Member

    +191
    Pentecostal
    Married
    >>After all they are God's chosen people right?

    By birth the only thing they were chosen to do was to safe guard the scriptures and even this was taken away from them.

    Romans 3:1-2 What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision? [2] Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of God.

    You can say they had first hand information, because in their hands were the scriptures or the oracles of God. Still, they had to observe and do what the scriptures told them to do. They had to live by faith. If they were not faithful to perform them, they perished just like everyone else. It is Faith that makes us a child of Abraham, not birth. "Therefore know that only those who are of faith are sons of Abraham." Galatians 3:7

    Still, one third of Isreal will be saved though fire.

    Zech. 13:9
    And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The Lord is my God.
     
  3. rwc109

    rwc109 Active Member

    902
    +5
    Engaged
    There were 12 tribes in Israel until Jacob adopted his 2 grandsons as well ,making 14 tribes [Joseph continued as a separate small tribe through his later offspring]
    The Jews are only the tribe of Judah with half the tribe of Levi and smatterings of a few other tribes, the main part of Israel is not the house of Judah, but the house of Israel who were scattered among all nations and unlike Judah lost their identities in the world mostly...thus who can tell who is or is not Israel apart from the jews, there is a vast hidden nation of people descended from Israel out in the world!
    The only tribes not chosen as the elect are Ephraim and Dan, but the twelve chosen are certainly mostly NOT Jews! [but some definitely are Jews]...then there is a vast uncountable multitude from all nations grafted in as well...read the end of this scripture! :-

    Rev 7:5 Of the tribe of Juda were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Reuben were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Gad were sealed twelve thousand.
    Rev 7:6 Of the tribe of Aser were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Nephthalim were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Manasses were sealed twelve thousand.
    Rev 7:7 Of the tribe of Simeon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Levi were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Issachar were sealed twelve thousand.
    Rev 7:8 Of the tribe of Zabulon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Joseph were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Benjamin were sealed twelve thousand.
    Rev 7:9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;
    Rev 7:10 And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.
     
  4. Noa

    Noa Member

    93
    +1
    Messianic
    I´m sorry, but I think you have to read it well: the 144.00 Jews are of all the tribes of the children of Israel.
    So, the 6.000.000 Jews who killed by hitler are not saved?

    I suggest to read the OT better :cool: The Bible is more than only the Revelation of Yeshua to John :D
     
  5. Noa

    Noa Member

    93
    +1
    Messianic
    Ofcourse they go to heaven. All Jews ans Israëli´s (Rom.11:25-26 after Zach.12:10) will accept Yeshua (Jesus)!
     
  6. 2002 Christian

    2002 Christian Member

    402
    +0
    Jesus was talking to a Jew:
    John 3:18 "He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

    John the Baptist was talking to Jews:
    Luke 3:7 Then said he to the multitude that came forth to be baptized of him, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?
    8 Bring forth therefore fruits worthy of repentance, and begin not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, That God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.
    9 And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: every tree therefore which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.

    Apostle John writing:
    1 John 2:23 Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also.
     
  7. Noa

    Noa Member

    93
    +1
    Messianic
    Hi 2002 Christian,

    I do not understand what you meant by giving these verses. I know them. I won´t ignore it. But do not ignore the promise of G´d that every Jew and every Israëli will accept Yeshua as their Messiah! I already gave the chapters and verses.
     
  8. Martin

    Martin Senior Veteran

    +12
    Christian
    Married
    I have a different take on this....

    I understand that Yeshua will return when the Jewish leaders realise that they have rejected the Messiah, repent of there sin, and call for Him to return. At the time Yeshua returns all Israel will be saved i.e. all the Jews at that time - not Jews that are living now.

    The reason why there is so much anti-semitism in the world and the main reason for the Holocaust is that the enemy knows this. His strategy is simple - destroy all the Jews, then there will be no Jew to repent and call for Yeshua to return, Yeshua will not be able to return and He will have won (at least that's what he thinks, but God has promised to protect the remnant of Jews).

    Blessings....
     
  9. 2002 Christian

    2002 Christian Member

    402
    +0
    You are imposing an interpretation of Paul's meaning over the plain teaching of Jesus: "...condemned already."
     
  10. Noa

    Noa Member

    93
    +1
    Messianic

    I have a different opinion. In Rom.11:26 Paulus told us that all Israëli´s will ben saved when all the gentiles will be in (Kindom of G´d; the rapture???). But I think Paul would be telling us when it does not concern the Jews ans Israëli´s in de past. All Israël (in these verse) is in mine opinion the past, present and future. Because of the fact G´d oversees this 3 times in one eyeblink.
    Also we have to realise G´d have blinded the Jews and the Israëli´s for His Plan to save all the people.
    Think about this: If the Jews never rejected Yeshua, the gospel won´t be told to the gentiles, unless they became a Jew.

    This is not een wishfull thinking, if I´m wrong, I will (ofcourse) accept His decision.
    true.
    Amen.

    Blessings :pink:
     
  11. Simonline

    Simonline The Inquisitor

    +170
    Messianic
    Single
    Noa,

    Bless you for your understanding...you are almost right.

    When Paul teaches that "all Israel will be saved" he did not mean every single Israelite who ever lived (and certainly not every single citizen of the modern state of Israel many of which are gentiles.)

    The guiding principle here is that salvation is by faith in Jesus. As it is written "The just shall live by faith." (Hab.2:4; Rom.1:17). There is no other way to be declared righteous either as an Israelite or as a gentile but to receive the righteousness of G'd as a free gift by faith. This was as true for Abraham ("And Abraham trusted G'd and it was credited to him as righteousness. Gen.15:6; Rom.4:3,22) as it is for us.

    If this is not the case then it means that G'd has two means of salvation, by birth for Israelites but by faith for Gentiles? In other words you have to trust God as a gentile but you only have to be born an Israelite? Does this sound fair to you? (though it is what many Jews believe including the Jews of Jesus' day)

    When Paul teaches that "all Israel will be saved" he uses the term "pas Israel" which is translated as "all Israel" but does not literally mean every single Israelite who has ever lived. The same phrase ("pas" - "all") is used in the gospels where the Pharisees were bemoaning the popularity of Jesus as he rode into Jerusalem on a donkey.

    "So the Pharisees said to one another...look how the whole world has gone after him"(Jn.12:19).

    Now the Pharisees obviously did not mean that every single person on the planet at that time was in Jerusalem following and cheering on Christ. What they meant was that representatives from many nations (who were in Jerusalem for the Passover) were now following Christ and hailing him as the Messiah. But they used this expression "the whole world" or "all the world" to refer to a representative group.

    This is the way that Paul uses the term "pas Israel" in Romans. What he means is that the second advent and the events immediately leading up to it will have such a profound effect upon the inhabitants of Israel that most (but not necessarily all) of them will turn in repentance back to the one whom they have pierced.

    Bearing in mind that during the period known as "the Great Tribulation/The time of Jacob's trouble" which will actually be a time of Divine Judgement upon all unbelievers - Jew and Gentile alike,  the forces of the Anti-Christ will have murdered two thirds of the Jewish people world wide so that only the one third (the remnant) will remain (as it is written "He who endures to the end will be saved" Matt.10:22). (Please note that this does not necessarily mean that all the murdered ones were unbelievers nor that the survivors were all believers). 

    This is the correct interpretation of Matt.24:37-42 and actually has nothing to do with "the rapture" as many Dispensationalists believe. The key verse is verse 37 which says "As it was in the days of Noah so shall it be at the coming of the Son of Man". In other words everything will continue as "normal" "business as usual" right up to the very end when the judgement came/comes (the flood/the Great Tribulation).

    And during that judgement who were the ones who were taken (judged) and who were the ones who were left (survived)? So when two men are out walking in a field which one will be taken, the believer or the unbeliever? Two women grinding corn at the milstone, which one will be taken and which one will be left? Get the picture?)

    This means that at the end Israel as a nation will be a believing nation, having been judgmentally purged of it's unbelief, but not one of them will be saved because they were born Jewish but rather because they each trusted in Yeshua as their Messiah.

    Tuff Stuff!

    Simonline.
     
  12. Noa

    Noa Member

    93
    +1
    Messianic


    Hi Simonline!

    We do not understand the ways of G´d. So what is fair and what is not fair... we are not able to judge. However, I can give you an example of my theory. First of all I always say: read the Word of G´d word for word.

    Because of the remnant among the Israël´s (House of Israël) and the Jews (House of Judah) who believes, al Israëli´s are saved. For example: Eliah and the 7000 men. Or the nation in de desert of Sinai when thousands has been killed because of their sins, the rest of the nation was saved.

    When we look at the facts, whole Israël should be destroyed because their sins were worse then the sins in Sodom and Gomorra BUT G´d kept His promise because of the faith of Abraham, Isaak and Jacob.


    We have to make a difference between the Jew and the false Jew. Maybe you have heard of the ´Jews´ but who are Edomits. The Edomits were infiltrated between the Pharisees. I´m talk about the descendants of Abraham, Isaak and Jacob (Rom.9-11).

    I do not agree at all. I believe and know Matt. 24:37-42 ìs talking about the rapture. Like you read: But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of Man be..
    G´d brought 8 people in the Ark of Noah: eight is in the Hebrew language Sjmoné. Sjmoné  also means... the Messiah. This is a reference to His deliverance. The Ark means box. The Hebrew word for box is Vah. But Vah means the same as Milah. Milah means Word. Noah and his family were saved ans deliveranced by Milah/Word. Yeshua is Word (John 1). So I´m convinced Matt.24 is about the rapture. The way how G´d/Yeshua YHVH saved Noah and his family by the Ark/Word is a silhouette of the rapture. 

    The believer in Messiah. But this has nothing to do with the eternal life! I´m talking about etarnal life. I know a lot of Jews and Israëli´s will not be taken during the rapture. Only the  real reborn-christians, the Mess. jews and the Hebrew christians (jews who lives like gentile-christians).
    I stil believe, because of the believing remnant all Jews and Israëli´s will be saved. Not for the rapture but will have an eternal live. Otherwise G´d would not promised Abraham with the convernant. Because of the faith of the remnant (Abraham) Israël will be saved. Rom.11:25-28 is very clear about that.

    Do you really think that the 6.000.000 Jews who were killed by Hitler and sang the Sh´ma Yisrael when they entred the gasschambers, G´d didn´t give them the eternal live because they were blind for Yeshua? G´d made the Israëli´s and the Jews blind (except the remnant among israël through the ages. It was a punishment of the sins of whole Israël) so the gentiles will be saved! That is the one and only reason. Sha´ul (Paul) was very clear about that in Rom.9-11.

    It is tuff stuff but with gardians of the Roeach Ha-Kodesh it is very clear.

    Shalom and tnx for the reply! :pink:

    Noa.
     
  13. ZiSunka

    ZiSunka It means 'yellow dog'

    +276
    Christian
    I think you read it wrong. It says that there will be 144,000 messianic Jews working as evangelists on earth during the tribulation. They are not in heaven, they are spreading the Good News to the people left on earth after the rapture, since, at the rapture, all the believers will be whisked away.
     
  14. lared

    lared Active Member

    936
    +12
    Jews are not THE chosen people.

    They WERE God's chosen people at one time.

    Today, his chosen people are the ones that are doing what he requests. And that is proclaiming the good news of God's kingdom.

    (Matthew 24:14) And this good news of the kingdom will be preached in all the inhabited earth for a witness to all the nations; and then the end will come.
     
  15. Noa

    Noa Member

    93
    +1
    Messianic
    What do YOU think... do you belong between the chosen ones????

    Read Rom. 9-11 very well and Jer. 31! Maybe... it is better yet you read the WHOLE bible! :cry:

    Noa
     
  16. lared

    lared Active Member

    936
    +12
    What is your point?
     
  17. Chili

    Chili Member

    163
    +0
    But Noa, when Jews accept Yeshua they become Christians and will enter heaven as Christians.

    Does this not mean that there will be no Jews in heaven but only Christians?

     
     
  18. Noa

    Noa Member

    93
    +1
    Messianic
    First you have to understand the meaning of the word ´Jew´. Jew is a Israeli who comes from the tribe of Judah or Benjamin. But it is also a believe.

    From your persfective, I understand your questions and I can say: ´yes´, because every Israeli will see who Yeshua (Jesus) is and they will accept Him als their Messiah. BUT do not forget: the goj-christians are not able to make an Israeli in a Christian. There is a big difference! Only the Roeach is able to do that and you have to approache a Israeli different than a goj (not-Israeli).

    Shalom!

    Noa.
     
  19. Noa

    Noa Member

    93
    +1
    Messianic
    Just read.
     
  20. Chili

    Chili Member

    163
    +0
    Noa I like your spirit and could not resist. Sorry if I surprised you. In the end heaven is for Christians only and I can assure you that it is available to Jews, who also happen to be my favorite people because I love their tradition and their faithfulness. I am a traditional [Dutch]Catholic who knows very little about Judaism and just wanted to compliment you on your determination. 

    And peace to you also.

     
     
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