Jews and Jesus Arrest and Crucifixion

Duvduv

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I still have difficulty understanding how any Christian theology and doctrine could come up with the idea of blaming anybody for the death of Jesus, and build up a case century after century against "the Jews" for killing the messiah when the entire theology of salvation depended on his death and resurrection and salvation through justification, where Jesus took on the sins of everyone and was the chosen sacrifice.
It needed to happen this way, so why would anyone be blamed for it at any time in history? It's theologically ridiculous. Don't all Christian theologians discuss this? Why hasn't it been discussed by the leadership of Christian denominations?
 

Treeplanter

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I still have difficulty understanding how any Christian theology and doctrine could come up with the idea of blaming anybody for the death of Jesus, and build up a case century after century against "the Jews" for killing the messiah when the entire theology of salvation depended on his death and resurrection and salvation through justification, where Jesus took on the sins of everyone and was the chosen sacrifice.
It needed to happen this way, so why would anyone be blamed for it at any time in history? It's theologically ridiculous. Don't all Christian theologians discuss this? Why hasn't it been discussed by the leadership of Christian denominations?
Whoever said Christian theology and doctrine makes sense?
 
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Hammster

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I still have difficulty understanding how any Christian theology and doctrine could come up with the idea of blaming anybody for the death of Jesus, and build up a case century after century against "the Jews" for killing the messiah when the entire theology of salvation depended on his death and resurrection and salvation through justification, where Jesus took on the sins of everyone and was the chosen sacrifice.
It needed to happen this way, so why would anyone be blamed for it at any time in history? It's theologically ridiculous. Don't all Christian theologians discuss this? Why hasn't it been discussed by the leadership of Christian denominations?
Men of Israel, listen to these words: Jesus the Nazarene, a man attested to you by God with miracles and wonders and signs which God performed through Him in your midst, just as you yourselves know⁠— this Man, delivered over by the predetermined plan and foreknowledge of God, you nailed to a cross by the hands of godless men and put Him to death.
— Acts 2:22-23

The Jews at the time were to blame. That doesn’t mean that those today are responsible.
 
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SigurdReginson

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Men of Israel, listen to these words: Jesus the Nazarene, a man attested to you by God with miracles and wonders and signs which God performed through Him in your midst, just as you yourselves know⁠— this Man, delivered over by the predetermined plan and foreknowledge of God, you nailed to a cross by the hands of godless men and put Him to death.
— Acts 2:22-23

The Jews at the time were to blame. That doesn’t mean that those today are responsible.

Seems as though singling out the Jews has led to countless deaths throughout the ages, though. Hindsight, I suppose.

Interesting how such consequences can spread out like wild fire from just a few small words.
 
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Duvduv

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But the point should be made in Acts 2:22 and everywhere else that the Jews he was speaking to did a great thing by crucifying Jesus. That's how salvation was to work. They should have been praised, not criticized and condemned!
 
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Duvduv

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Hammster, the Jews then did a great and virtuous thing by crucifying Jesus. Don't you get it??

Men of Israel, listen to these words: Jesus the Nazarene, a man attested to you by God with miracles and wonders and signs which God performed through Him in your midst, just as you yourselves know⁠— this Man, delivered over by the predetermined plan and foreknowledge of God, you nailed to a cross by the hands of godless men and put Him to death.
— Acts 2:22-23

The Jews at the time were to blame. That doesn’t mean that those today are responsible.
 
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SigurdReginson

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Hammster, the Jews then did a great and virtuous thing by crucifying Jesus. Don't you get it??

I... Don't feel like that's a very healthy way to think, @Duvduv. I don't like the idea of rejoicing because someone was tortured and killed, even if countless people were saved by that action.

Reminds me of memorial day. It isn't a day of celebration, but a solemn reminder that there are those who pay the ultimate price in our stead.
 
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Hammster

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Seems as though singling out the Jews has led to countless deaths throughout the ages, though. Hindsight, I suppose.

Interesting how such consequences can spread out like wild fire from just a few small words.
How people used that info is not in question here.
 
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Hammster

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But the point should be made in Acts 2:22 and everywhere else that the Jews he was speaking to did a great thing by crucifying Jesus. That's how salvation was to work. They should have been praised, not criticized and condemned!
Praised for crucifying an innocent Man? That would be sinful.
 
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Hammster, the Jews then did a great and virtuous thing by crucifying Jesus. Don't you get it??
Medicine was advanced because of the Holocaust. We should praise Hitler.

:doh:
 
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Silly Uncle Wayne

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I still have difficulty understanding how any Christian theology and doctrine could come up with the idea of blaming anybody for the death of Jesus, and build up a case century after century against "the Jews" for killing the messiah when the entire theology of salvation depended on his death and resurrection and salvation through justification, where Jesus took on the sins of everyone and was the chosen sacrifice.
It needed to happen this way, so why would anyone be blamed for it at any time in history? It's theologically ridiculous. Don't all Christian theologians discuss this? Why hasn't it been discussed by the leadership of Christian denominations?

People are sinful and always look around for someone else to blame. The leadership should be steering away from that, but more often than not they used it for their own advantage.

It seems incredibly odd and naive to come to conclude that Jews killed Jesus therefore we should persecute jews, especially given the fact that all of the Christians in the beginning were Jews (at least until Cornelius is converted). Even after the inclusion of gentiles, the Jewish members remained Jewish and continued Jewish practices (which led to some clashes between the groups over circumcision).

I doubt any of the early Christians would have blamed Jews for killing Jesus, the scriptures indicate one important fact: we crucified Jesus. Had we not sinned, his sacrifice would not be necessary.

Blaming the Jews thus becomes a way of blaming others people for our own failings. It is just sinful behaviour and it still exists today - 'Get rid of the immigrants and things will be better' or even 'get rid of Christianity and the world will be better.'
 
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Maria Billingsley

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I still have difficulty understanding how any Christian theology and doctrine could come up with the idea of blaming anybody for the death of Jesus, and build up a case century after century against "the Jews" for killing the messiah when the entire theology of salvation depended on his death and resurrection and salvation through justification, where Jesus took on the sins of everyone and was the chosen sacrifice.
It needed to happen this way, so why would anyone be blamed for it at any time in history? It's theologically ridiculous. Don't all Christian theologians discuss this? Why hasn't it been discussed by the leadership of Christian denominations?
I understand your point. Without the death of Christ no one would be saved other than the faithful remnant of Israel. So the blame game is unfruitful. What is important is the Gospel being released to the entire world due to the rejection of Jesus Christ of Nazareth as Messiah by His own. The Gospel was first given to the Jew then to the Gentile. This was the mystery. Blessings.
 
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SigurdReginson

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People are sinful and always look around for someone else to blame. The leadership should be steering away from that, but more often than not they used it for their own advantage.

Very true on that second point. Scape goats and common enemies make for a convenient distraction and make for a useful device in bringing people together for a common cause. It's a pretty gross tactic, but it's an effective one. However, this case is a little different, and I'll explain below...

It seems incredibly odd and naive to come to conclude that Jews killed Jesus therefore we should persecute jews, especially given the fact that all of the Christians in the beginning were Jews (at least until Cornelius is converted).

And yet, historically, that's the conclusion people came to - all over the christian world. It's also been that way since some of the earliest Christians in Christendom. It's an attitude that persisted for almost two thousand years, and it even manifested itself in great men like Martin Luther who authored "On the Jews and Their Lies."

Even after the inclusion of gentiles, the Jewish members remained Jewish and continued Jewish practices (which led to some clashes between the groups over circumcision).

That seems true enough to me. There are plenty of verses that come to mind that single out the Jews specifically, though. Paul, who was Jewish himself, authored some that have been later used to justify antisemitic acts upon them. 1 Thessalonians 2:14-16 would be one.

14For you, brothers and sisters,* became imitators of the churches of God in Christ Jesus that are in Judea, for you suffered the same things from your own compatriots as they did from the Jews, 15who killed both the Lord Jesus and the prophets,* and drove us out; they displease God and oppose everyone 16by hindering us from speaking to the Gentiles so that they may be saved. Thus they have constantly been filling up the measure of their sins; but God’s wrath has overtaken them at last.*

I doubt any of the early Christians would have blamed Jews for killing Jesus, the scriptures indicate one important fact: we crucified Jesus. Had we not sinned, his sacrifice would not be necessary.

That's actually not true. Here are some quotes from notable early Christians.

"If someone had killed your son. could you stand the sight of him or the sound of his greeting? Wouldn't you try to get away from him as if he were an evil demon; as if he were the Devil himself? The Jews killed the Son of your Master......... Will you so dishonor Him as to respect and cultivate His Murderers, the men who crucified Him?"

-John Chrysostum C. 390 CE (Who wrote Adversus Judaeos, which even the Nazi party used to justify their actions during their WW2 atrocities).

"For the circumcision according to the flesh; which is from Abraham, was given for a sign, that you may be separated from other nations and from us, and that you alone may suffer that which you now justly suffer, and that your land may be desolate and your cities burned with fire, and that strangers may eat your fruit in your; presence and not one of you may go up to Jerusalem."

-Justin Martyr C. 160 CE

"Why was the temple made desolate? Was it on account of the ancient fabrication of the calf? Or was it on account of the idolatry of the people? Was it for the blood of the prophets? Was it for the adultery and fornication of Israel? By no means, for in all these transgressions they always found pardon open to them. But it was because they killed the Son of their Benefactor, for He is coeternal with the Father."

-Hippolytus c. 220 CE

"It is because you killed Christ. It is became you stretched out your hand against the Lord. It is because you shed the precious blood, that there is now no restoration, no mercy anymore and no defense. Long ago your audacity was directed against servants, against Moses, Isaiah and Jeremiah. If there was wickedness then, as yet the wont of all crimes had not been dared. But now you have eclipsed everything in the past and through your madness against Christ, you have committed the ultimate transgression. This is why you are being punished worse now than in the past. . . . If this were not the case God would not have turned his back on you so completely. . . But if it appears that He has utterly abandoned you; it is evident from this anger and abandonment that He is showing even to the most shameless that the One who was murdered was not a common lawbreaker, but was the very Lawgiver Himself, and the Cause, present among us, of innumerable blessings. Thus you who sinned against Him are in a state of dishonor and disgrace, while we who worship Him, though we once were less honored than any of you [i.e., as gentile pagans), are now established through the grace of God in a more respected position than any of you and in greater honor."

-John Chrysostum C. 390 CE

Blaming the Jews thus becomes a way of blaming others people for our own failings. It is just sinful behaviour and it still exists today - 'Get rid of the immigrants and things will be better' or even 'get rid of Christianity and the world will be better.'

Antisemitism definitely has very Christian roots, and though I do agree that they have been made scapegoats in similar ways that you describe the above examples, that ire didn't come from nowhere. It was a phenomenon that happened in Christian corners of the world precisely because of the way they have been singled out since the very beginning - as Christ killers.

"Why should we pursue the enemies of the Christian faith in far and distant lands while vile blasphemers far worse than any Muslims, namely the Jews, who are not far away from us but who live in our midst, blaspheme, abuse, and trample on Christ and the Christian sacraments so freely and insolently and with impunity?"

This was written by the Benedictine abbot Peter the Venerable of Cluny in a letter to King Louis VII of France in reference to the Crusade and why they should just kill the Jews instead. There are plenty of writings from Jews who survived the horrors of those times inflicted upon them, as well.

"I shall speak out in the grief of my spirit before my small congregation.
I shall wail and lament; for the Almighty has dealt bitterly with me.
Be silent, hear my words and my prayer.
If only he would hear me.

The crusaders massed at the gateway
To blot out the name of his remnants.
Small children cried out to him with one voice:
"Hear, O Israel, the Lord is our God; the Lord is one"

This was a poem written in remembrance of a major massacre that happened in 1096. Here's another account showing the effects of PTSD left on these people...

"They inflicted heavy tortures upon him. And when they beheld his suffering, they defiled [baptized] him against his will, since the blows with which they had beaten him left him unconscious. Having regained consciousness, he returned three days later to Cologne. He entered his house and, after waiting but an hour, went to the Rhine and drowned himself in the river. About him and others like him Scripture states (Psalm 68:23), "I will bring back from the depths of the sea."

Had the Jews not been singled out in the bible like they had been, I have to wonder if they would have suffered such a terrible fate throughout history...
 
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Silly Uncle Wayne

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And yet, historically, that's the conclusion people came to - all over the christian world. It's also been that way since some of the earliest Christians in Christendom. It's an attitude that persisted for almost two thousand years, and it even manifested itself in great men like Martin Luther who authored "On the Jews and Their Lies."

That seems true enough to me. There are plenty of verses that come to mind that single out the Jews specifically, though. Paul, who was Jewish himself, authored some that have been later used to justify antisemitic acts upon them. 1 Thessalonians 2:14-16 would be one.

I don't disagree that the church is in part responsible for some horrific pogroms and similar. My point is that this wasn't present in the early church (first two centuries). Even the verses that are quoted are not cause for persecution, in fact the opposite is true - they are bemoaning the persecution received from Jews.

History has shown us that people who desire something enough will find a way to justify it and the Jew hating is no different from this. Every parable that Jesus told was about Jewish people. This includes the man who was beset by robbers and was saved by the Samaritan... and this was in answer to the question 'who is my neighbour'. Our neighbour is anyone in need, and the race should make no difference.

I look to many Christians particularly in Netherlands and France during the war who risked their own lives to help save Jewish people to show that the idea that Christians are Jew haters was and is never universal.

The problem is never the majority of people causing the problem, just the majority afraid to stand up to the vocal minority for fear that they will suffer in the persecution too.

To those who think it was the Jews it is clear that they aren't willing to think it out. Had the Jews wanted to kill him, they would have stoned him to death in accordance with their law. Crucifixion is a Roman punishment. The people who nailed Jesus to the cross were Romans, under the orders of the Roman Procurator. Romans probably weren't even from Rome - most likely they were from somewhere/anywhere in the Empire at that time. In other words we have no real knowledge of who actually did the deed, but we do know it was because both Jews and Romans willed it. They bear the same responsibility... but Romans have never been persecuted. So a case of wishful thinking.
 
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Silly Uncle Wayne

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Had the Jews not been singled out in the bible like they had been, I have to wonder if they would have suffered such a terrible fate throughout history...

Unfortunately it is the nature of the story that God weaved through history to that point that he used one particular nation. The fact that Jesus was a Jew seems to have been lost on those who sought someone to persecute.
 
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SigurdReginson

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Unfortunately it is the nature of the story that God weaved through history to that point that he used one particular nation. The fact that Jesus was a Jew seems to have been lost on those who sought someone to persecute.

It really is unfortunate. Seems a rather avoidable fate, too, had the narrative been worded differently (in less of a demonizing way towards the Jews) by the authors of the bible.

I have to wonder if they realized that their words would have been used in such a way as they wrote them down. I would assume not, but then again, the bible is supposed to be divinely inspired/the word of god (depending on the personal belief of the person).

Is the outcome that so overwhelmingly unfolded what was to be intended? That antisemitism was to be a designed fate for the Jewish people? It seems to have unanimously and uniformly realized itself upon the face of the earth in the wake of Christianity as a whole throughout time and location. Only in recent history do we see this beginning to change.
 
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Silly Uncle Wayne

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Is the outcome that so overwhelmingly unfolded what was to be intended? That antisemitism was to be a designed fate for the Jewish people? It seems to have unanimously and uniformly realized itself upon the face of the earth in the wake of Christianity as a whole throughout time and location. Only in recent history do we see this beginning to change.
No, I don't think this was God's (or Paul's) intention in writing and I think all of the early Christians would have been horrified at the way it was used.

I don't think the Jews were always the victims of this mentality, they just happened to be the ones that were there. In the reformation, the RC church persecuted the Protestants and both groups persecuted the Anabaptists.

It is why I think that people everywhere look for someone to blame...and will do anything to justify that. But the whole New Testament is about the individual seeing themselves as sinners (not others) and falling on God's mercy to deal with it.
 
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SigurdReginson

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No, I don't think this was God's (or Paul's) intention in writing and I think all of the early Christians would have been horrified at the way it was used.

I don't think the Jews were always the victims of this mentality, they just happened to be the ones that were there. In the reformation, the RC church persecuted the Protestants and both groups persecuted the Anabaptists.

It is why I think that people everywhere look for someone to blame...and will do anything to justify that. But the whole New Testament is about the individual seeing themselves as sinners (not others) and falling on God's mercy to deal with it.

That's an explanation that I don't necessarily agree with completely or find all that satisfying, but the conversation has gotten to the point where it has more to do with opinion (mine and yours) than getting to the heart of the issue. Thanks for indulging my questions and thoughts! :D
 
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