• Welcome to Christian Forums
  1. Welcome to Christian Forums, a forum to discuss Christianity in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

  2. The forums in the Christian Congregations category are now open only to Christian members. Please review our current Faith Groups list for information on which faith groups are considered to be Christian faiths. Christian members please remember to read the Statement of Purpose threads for each forum within Christian Congregations before posting in the forum.
  3. Please note there is a new rule regarding the posting of videos. It reads, "Post a summary of the videos you post . An exception can be made for music videos.". Unless you are simply sharing music, please post a summary, or the gist, of the video you wish to share.
  4. There have been some changes in the Life Stages section involving the following forums: Roaring 20s, Terrific Thirties, Fabulous Forties, and Golden Eagles. They are changed to Gen Z, Millennials, Gen X, and Golden Eagles will have a slight change.
  5. CF Staff, Angels and Ambassadors; ask that you join us in praying for the world in this difficult time, asking our Holy Father to stop the spread of the virus, and for healing of all affected.
  6. We are no longer allowing posts or threads that deny the existence of Covid-19. Members have lost loved ones to this virus and are grieving. As a Christian site, we do not need to add to the pain of the loss by allowing posts that deny the existence of the virus that killed their loved one. Future post denying the Covid-19 existence, calling it a hoax, will be addressed via the warning system.
  7. There has been an addition to the announcement regarding unacceptable nick names. The phrase "Let's go Brandon" actually stands for a profanity and will be seen as a violation of the profanity rule in the future.

Jews 4 Jesus criticize Vatican

Discussion in 'Messianic Judaism' started by Yeshua HaDerekh, Jan 3, 2016.

  1. 613jono

    613jono Member

    96
    +62
    Judaism
    Married

    This is evidence of the semitic origins of the so-called "NT". There are no "original manuscripts" available(which is the point of our disagreement).

    Contained with in the Greek text of the New Testament are many Hebrew words and phrases that have been transliterated from the Hebrew language into the Greek language. While many of these have been described as being "Aramaic," there is no textual evidence to suggest that these are Aramaic rather than Hebrew.

    In the book of Matthew (27:46) is the phrase "Eli eli lema sabachthani" (eli eli lama sabachtani). This is a Greek transliteration of the Hebrew "אלי אלי למה שבקתני" (eli eli lama shabaqtani) meaning "my God my God why have you left me."

    Below are additional Hebrew words found in the Greek New Testament.

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Feb 4, 2016
  2. Yeshua HaDerekh

    Yeshua HaDerekh Men dream of truth, find it then cant live with it

    +2,852
    United States
    Eastern Orthodox
    Private
     
  3. Yeshua HaDerekh

    Yeshua HaDerekh Men dream of truth, find it then cant live with it

    +2,852
    United States
    Eastern Orthodox
    Private
    I guess this site was hiccupping again. Anyway, sure there would be semitic phrases, almost ALL the writers were Jewish! However, there is no evidence that they wrote the NT in anything other than Greek originally, even to early believers who were Jews in the Empire. Eli is in the original Hebrew text for Psalm 22:1, and may have been used because Elohi could not be written in Greek. Elohi/Eloi is found in the Septuagint as the original words also, not in Greek. It could also be said "Eli, Eli, lama Azabthani". The same with "lema" and "lama", Hebrew vs Aramaic roots. Sabakhthani is also Aramaic in origin but may have been in common usage in Hebrew (as in the word Shabakh) during that time. Shabakhta is "you forsook" and ni is "me". So the authors, writing in Greek, used original text either to make a point from the OT and/or because it could not be written correctly to be understood correctly in Greek.
     
    Last edited: Feb 5, 2016
  4. SteveCaruso

    SteveCaruso Translator

    812
    +546
    Anglican
    Married
    For the record: "Sabakhthani" "talitha" "cephas" "Golgotha" and many other words are certainly Aramaic, not Hebrew. There are also a number of wordplays underlying the Greek that do not work in Hebrrw. At the time, Hebrew was not a spoken-at-home language -- otherwise Bar Kochba wouldn't have had to revive it as such 100 years later, nor would his earliest letters have been in Aramaic. Even The early Church Fathers understood "Hebrew" as "Aramaic written in Hebrew letters" (ie Jewish [Galilean and Judean] as opposed to pagan Aramaic -- what was spoken in Edessa or Nabatea).

    (Please excuse minor errors. I'm on my mobile device. :) )
     
  5. 613jono

    613jono Member

    96
    +62
    Judaism
    Married
    Sorry, see below post.
     
    Last edited: Feb 5, 2016
  6. 613jono

    613jono Member

    96
    +62
    Judaism
    Married
    Although the survival of Hebrew as a spoken language until the Byzantine Period is well-known among Hebrew linguists, there remains a lag in awareness among some historians who do not necessarily keep up-to-speed with linguistic research and rely on outdated scholarship. Nevertheless, the vigor of Hebrew is slowly but surely making its way through the academic literature. The Hebrew of the Dead Sea Scrolls distinguishes the Dead Sea Scroll Hebrew from the various dialects of Biblical Hebrew it evolved out of, "This book presents the specific features of DSS Hebrew, emphasizing deviations from classical BH."[1] The Oxford Dictionary of the Christian Church that once said in 1958 in its first edition, Hebrew "ceased to be a spoken language around the fourth century BC", now says in 1997 in its third edition, Hebrew "continued to be used as a spoken and written language in the New Testament period".[2] An Introductory Grammar of Rabbinic Hebrew says, "It is generally believed that the Dead Sea Scrolls, specifically the Copper Scroll and also the Bar Kokhba letters, have furnished clear evidence of the popular character of MH [Mishnaic Hebrew]."[3] And so on. Israeli scholars now tend to take it for granted that Hebrew as a spoken language is a feature of Israel's Roman Period.

    For many years it has been taught that Greek and Aramaic were the languages of Israel during the Second Temple period. However, over the past fifty years more and more evidence has surfaced that the language of the Jews in Israel during this time was in fact Hebrew. Below are some of discoveries supporting this theory.

    In 135 CE Shimon Ben Kosiba (Simon Bar Kockba) lead the final revolt against the Romans. The image below is a fragment of a parchment which begins, "From Shimon Ben Kosiba to Yeshua Ben Galgoula and to the men of the fort, peace..." This is a letter from Shimon himself to one of his leaders in the revolt and it is written in Hebrew.

    [​IMG]
    All coins minted in Israel during the second Temple period include inscriptions written in Hebrew. The coin on the left is written in the late Semitic script bearing the inscription "yerushalem" (Jerusalem). The coin on the right is written in the middle (paleo) Hebrew script with the word "sh'ma" (hear).

    [​IMG] [​IMG]
    The many scrolls and thousands of fragments uncovered in the Dead Sea Caves were written from between 100 CE and 70AD. Some of these scrolls and fragments are of Biblical book but others are secular works concerning day to day business. Of all of these scrolls and fragments, approximately 90% are written in Hebrew while only 5% are in Aramaic and 5% in Greek. While most of the Hebrew inscriptions use the late Hebrew script, some of them use the more ancient early (paleo) script such as the image below which is a portion of the book of Leviticus.

    [​IMG]


    The book of Maccabees, one of the books of the Apocrypha, tells the story of the Jewish Revolt about 150 years before the time of the New Testament. The Greeks, lead by Antichus Epiphinus, conquiered the land of Israel and forced the Jews to leave their national heritage and the Torah and begin following the Greek culture. Because of the Jews hatred for all things Hellenistic, including the culture and language, Judas Maccabee lead the revolt against Antichus Epiphinus destroying the Greeks and slaughtering those Jews that had adopted the Greek language and culture. This revolt demonstrates the Jewish hatred of the hellistic culture and the incorrect assumption that the Jews freely adopted the Greek language during the time of the New Testament.

    Josephus was a first century Jewish historian who recorded Jewish life and sentiment during the time of the New Testament. In his work Antiquity of the Jews he writes "I have also taken a great deal of pains to obtain the learning of the Greeks, and understanding the elements of the Greek language although I have so long accustomed myself to speak our own language, that I cannot pronounce Greek with sufficient exactness: for our nation does not encourage those that learn the languages of many nations". (Josephus, Ant.20.11.2)

    Taken from Mark Benners AHRC.
     
  7. 613jono

    613jono Member

    96
    +62
    Judaism
    Married

    Exactly! Jewish writers. I think it more logical to assume translitered words would come from a Hebrew word source or a Hebrew original.
     
  8. SteveCaruso

    SteveCaruso Translator

    812
    +546
    Anglican
    Married
    Aye and this lengthy cut and paste from Benners is not a reliable source and is full of convenient ambiguities. :)

    Just a few points:

    Most Israeli linguists (and Semitic linguists in general) do not believe that Hebrew was a spoken language in the 1st century outside of the synagogue in academic context. It's a minority opinion that do and it's a minority opinion that has not been well received.

    The Hebrew of the DSS is littered with Aramaic spellings and other evidences that show that the scribes' first language was not Hebrew, but Eastern (that is to say Judean) Aramaic. They were fond of things like writing ending a-class vowels with alef instead of he, revised a number of passages with contemporary Aramaic idiom, etc.

    Every one of Bark Kochba's earliest letters were exclusively in Aramaic. He is responsible for Hebrew's *revival* as a symbol of nationalism.

    Paleo Hebrew is used on coins from the time period much like Latin ("e pluribus unum") and Blackletter ("old english script" -- well it's not) is used on our modern currency.

    That part of the Book of Leviticus is written in Herodian bookhand, which was popular in the first centuries BC/AD. This was the handwriting contemporary to Jesus, and what has been found throughout Galilee used to write Galilean Aramaic inscriptions from the first century through the Byzantine Period.

    Maccabees is a red herring. It has no bearing on this discussion.

    And that passage of Josephus is perhaps the most misquoted and taken-out-of-context passages from his entire written works. If you read the entire passage, he mentions that Greek learning was found all over the place among Jews, especially in the diaspora, and he was patting himself on the back for undertaking a task which was seen as below his station in Jewish and Roman society. The very next line reads, "because they look upon this accomplishment as common, not only to all sorts of free men, but as many of the servants as please learn them."


    Jesus and his earliest Disciples -- being raised in Galilee -- spoke Galilean Aramaic. Where it's an obscure dialect, we have surviving examples of this language from Rabbinic writings and inscriptions in Galilee itself. They did not speak Hebrew that had been dead as a day-to-day language for nearly ten generations before them, nor Hebrew that had been revived eight generations after them.
     
  9. 613jono

    613jono Member

    96
    +62
    Judaism
    Married

    Yes, i refrenced the Benner material and web site (at bottom of post).

    Our disagreement is not over it being written in Hebrew per-se, but from a semitic origin. The poimt of disagreement is the statement "it is a fact" that the "NT" is written originally in greek (already disproved the statement).

    opinions differ based on assumptions. Facts however are indesputable.
     
  10. Yeshua HaDerekh

    Yeshua HaDerekh Men dream of truth, find it then cant live with it

    +2,852
    United States
    Eastern Orthodox
    Private
    They were not transliterated words. It was in Greek with certain phrases said in Aramaic.
     
  11. Gxg (G²)

    Gxg (G²) Pilgrim/Monastic on the Road to God (Psalm 84:1-7) CF Ambassadors Supporter

    +1,185
    Oriental Orthodox
    Private
    US-Others
    Interesting....
     
  12. visionary

    visionary Your God is my God... Ruth said, so say I. Supporter

    +7,512
    Messianic
    I think this is an important point..

     
  13. visionary

    visionary Your God is my God... Ruth said, so say I. Supporter

    +7,512
    Messianic
  14. Hoshiyya

    Hoshiyya Spenglerian

    +996
    Married
Loading...