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Jewish members who visit CF

Discussion in 'Christianity and World Religion' started by ShirChadash, May 27, 2008.

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  1. Ramona

    Ramona If you can't see my siggy, I've disappeared ;) Supporter

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    How could any human being be an affront to an almighty Creator?

    I am deeply offended.
     
  2. ChavaK

    ChavaK להיות טוב ולעשות טוב

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    To which post are you referring? :confused:

    I can think of many human beings who are an affront to the Almighty...
    Hitler, to start....
     
  3. ShirChadash

    ShirChadash A Jew, by the grace and love of God. Come home!

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    Seriously -- stick with the mechon-mamre which doesn't put in any of the jumbled machinations you have in your quotes. It's more than sufficient, with the Hebrew alongside, and enjoyable to read to boot.


    טו כִּי אֲמַרְתֶּם, כָּרַתְנוּ בְרִית אֶת-מָוֶת, וְעִם-שְׁאוֹל, עָשִׂינוּ חֹזֶה; שיט (שׁוֹט) שׁוֹטֵף כִּי-עבר (יַעֲבֹר) לֹא יְבוֹאֵנוּ, כִּי שַׂמְנוּ כָזָב מַחְסֵנוּ וּבַשֶּׁקֶר נִסְתָּרְנוּ. {פ} 15 Because ye have said: 'We have made a covenant with death, and with the nether-world are we at agreement; when the scouring scourge shall pass through, it shall not come unto us; for we have made lies our refuge, and in falsehood have we hid ourselves'; {P}

    :thumbsup:
     
  4. anisavta

    anisavta Never Forget!

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    It started back with Amelek. G~d wanted him wiped off the face of the earth. It would have happened if it wasn't for King Sh'aul who allowed Agag who was King of the Amakekites to live. Thru him came Haman who also wanted to destroy the Jewish People. Same spirit in Amelek and Haman and Hitler. Yes there are people who are an affront to HaShem.
     
  5. ShirChadash

    ShirChadash A Jew, by the grace and love of God. Come home!

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    Stick with the mamre -- it is more than sufficient with the Hebrew included:


    טו כִּי אֲמַרְתֶּם, כָּרַתְנוּ בְרִית אֶת-מָוֶת, וְעִם-שְׁאוֹל, עָשִׂינוּ חֹזֶה; שיט (שׁוֹט) שׁוֹטֵף כִּי-עבר (יַעֲבֹר) לֹא יְבוֹאֵנוּ, כִּי שַׂמְנוּ כָזָב מַחְסֵנוּ וּבַשֶּׁקֶר נִסְתָּרְנוּ. {פ} 15 Because ye have said: 'We have made a covenant with death, and with the nether-world are we at agreement; when the scouring scourge shall pass through, it shall not come unto us; for we have made lies our refuge, and in falsehood have we hid ourselves'; {P}

    and a bonus -- its pleasant to read. ;)
     
  6. LittleLambofJesus

    LittleLambofJesus Hebrews 2:14.... Pesky Devil, git! Supporter

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    Greetings and thanks for the response and I agree.

    The interlinear [link below] does use the Mamre and one reason I like to read from it as it also parses the Hebrew words [and the Greek also]. [It uses "the-damsel" instead of "virgin" in Isaiah 7 for example]

    The hebrew word used in Isaiah 28:15 is "karath" as is also used in Jeremiah 31. What is the difference between "cut" and "make", as you used in your translation? Just curious. Shalom and thanks.

    http://www.scripture4all.org/

    Jeremiah 31:31 Behold, days, ones-coming a declaration of YHWH, and-I-Cut/03772 karath with the house of Yisra'el and with the house of [email protected] a Covenant/01285 [email protected], New [Hebrew 8:8]

    Hebrews 8:8 "For faulting to-them, He is saying:, `Behold, days are coming, is saying Lord.
    And shall-be-together-finishing/sun-telesw <4931> (5692) upon the house of Israel, and upon the house of Judah a Covenant, New" [Jeremiah 31:31]

    3772 karath kaw-rath' a primitive root; to cut (off, down or asunder); by implication, to destroy or consume; specifically, to covenant (i.e. make an alliance or bargain, originally by cutting flesh and passing between the pieces):--be chewed, be con-(feder-)ate, covenant,
     
  7. jaihare

    jaihare Well-Known Member

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    The verse should be understood:

    "For we you have said: We have made a covenant with death, and with the grave have we made a contract...."

    The word &#1495;&#1493;&#1494;&#1492; means "contract" or "agreement". How do we make a "seer" (which is also the word &#1495;&#1493;&#1494;&#1492;) with the grave (&#1513;&#1488;&#1493;&#1500;)? Additionally, &#1499;&#1512;&#1514; is the regular verb that is used when "making a covenant". We do not say "cut a covenant" in English, though it's not so strange when you're used to hearing Hebrew. It simply doesn't have meaning in English. Hebrew, however, uses &#1499;&#1512;&#1514; all the time in relation to covenant (&#1489;&#1512;&#1497;&#1514;).

    Where did you study Hebrew, by the way?

    Yours,
    Jason

    (Rehovot, Israel)
     
  8. jaihare

    jaihare Well-Known Member

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    The word karat (&#1499;&#1512;&#1514;) does not mean "cut" when referring to a covenant. There is an idiom in Hebrew "lichrot brit" that means "to make a covenant." Translating it otherwise is doing injustice to both the original language and to the target language (English). It means "to make a covenant", and it is unjustifiable from the perspective of a translator and a Hebrew speaker to say otherwise.

    Jason
     
  9. Talmidah

    Talmidah היום כולם יודעים - הרב כהנא צדק

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    Thank you for explaining this.
     
  10. RebYosef

    RebYosef Newbie

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    I have no feelings what so ever. The Messianic community does not represent anything about Jewish culture or Jewish Faith. What ever controversy they go through, is merely a Christian one and is of no consequenceto me.
     
  11. LittleLambofJesus

    LittleLambofJesus Hebrews 2:14.... Pesky Devil, git! Supporter

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    Evidently not at a Hebrew University :)

    http://www.scripture4all.org/

    Haggai 2:6 That thus He says, YHWH of Hosts: 'Yet one little, she, and I am quaking the heavens and the land, and the Sea, and the Dry/03004 yabbashah, 7 And I quake All of the nations, and they come, desired of all of the nations. And I fill the House, this, honour says YHWH of Hosts.

    Matt 23:15 "Woe to ye scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! that ye are going-about the Sea and the Dry/xhran <3584> to make one proselyte, and whenever he may be becoming/genhtai <1096> (5638), ye are making him a son of geennhV <1067> twofold-more of-ye.
     
  12. jaihare

    jaihare Well-Known Member

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    I believe that the more correct answer would be: "I haven't studied Hebrew, I just post as though I knew what I was talking about without really having any experience with reading the Tanakh as it was originally written." Isn't that what you mean when you ridicule Jewish institutions of higher learning?

    Jason
     
  13. LittleLambofJesus

    LittleLambofJesus Hebrews 2:14.... Pesky Devil, git! Supporter

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    I read it no differently than Christians and Jews read it.

    Are you trying to imply only Jews can read and understand the OT/OC and not non-Jews? Not sure what you are implying.

    Btw, I have my own translations of a lot of the OT/OC and others can use however they feel is the correct one.

    I have my way of harmonizing the Bible, others have their way. Mine may not be correct but I am happy with it non the less. :wave:

    http://christianforums.com/showthread.php?t=7245098

    Genesis 3:12 And the 'adam is saying: "the woman whom Thou gave with me, she gave to me from the tree and I am eating".
    13 And YHWH 'Elohiym is saying to-woman "what this thou do"? And the woman is saying: "the nachash, he deceived/beguiled/nasha me and I am eating".


    Romans 5:17 for if to the one offence the death reigns through the one, much more/rather those the super-abundance of the grace and of the gratuity of the righteousness obtaining in life shall be through the one Jesus Christ.
     
  14. jaihare

    jaihare Well-Known Member

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    Except that you take &#1495;&#1493;&#1494;&#1492; to mean "seer" where it obviously means "contract" in parallel to "covenant" (&#1489;&#1512;&#1497;&#1514;). You seem to translate every other verb with the English present continuous (completely unnatural to the language), and you regularly assign strange meanings to standard words from the biblical Hebrew lexical stock. I would say that you read it far differently from both Christians and Jews when you propose the things that I have read in this thread.

    I made no such comparisons. Many Christians across the world can read and understand Hebrew. However, I would like you to admit that you're simply not one of them. You are doing naught but abusing the Scriptures.

    If they consistently reflect the kind of scholarship that I have seen in this thread, I doubt you have any readers.

    I'm not talking about biblical harmonization. I'm talking about the abuse and degradation of language.

    "Is saying"? "I am eating"? In English, this means that the Adam is still speaking now and that he was still eating when he was confronted by God. Strange idea, if you ask me.
    God is still saying to the woman? "What this thou do?" Wonderful English as well.

    More translationally nonsensical refuse. Why are you abusing the Scriptures?? This is NOT what it says!

    Jason
     
  15. LittleLambofJesus

    LittleLambofJesus Hebrews 2:14.... Pesky Devil, git! Supporter

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    Then why is that hebrew word also uses as "seer" in 2 Samuel 24:11. Does this mean Gad is a "contractor"? Also, if YHWH wanted to say "make" instead of "cut" why didn't He use the hebrew word for that instead?
    Btw, what are the Jews thoughts on the Christian's view of Jesus coming again to the Jews in the Future? Thanks

    2 Samuel 24:11 And David is arising in morning and a word of YHWH came to Gad the prophet, vision-seer/02374 chozeh of David, to say of:

    Isaiah 28:15 Because ye-say: `We-cut/make/karath a-Covenant with Death, And-with [email protected]'owl we-made/06213 `asah a seer/02374 chozeh,

    02374 chozeh {kho-zeh'} active participle of 02372; TWOT - 633b; n m
    AV - seer 16, see 3, agreement 1, prophets 1, stargazers 1; 22
    1) seer 1a) seer 1b) vision
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 8, 2008
  16. jaihare

    jaihare Well-Known Member

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    (1) The form &#1495;&#1493;&#1494;&#1492; means both "contract" and "seer". They are actually two different words, but they look the same. Are you suggesting that homonyms do not exist in English? What do I mean when I write "pin"? Do I mean something that you put in your hair to hold it back, or do I mean putting someone against a wall or floor and not letting them free? When I write "bow", do I mean to bend at the waist or something that you use to shoot arrows? &#1495;&#1493;&#1494;&#1492; (contract) is a homonym with &#1495;&#1493;&#1494;&#1492; (seer), but they are not the same WORD. There are many homonyms in Hebrew, just as there are in English &#8212; for example, &#1488;&#1513;&#1508;&#1492; (ashpah), which can mean either "dunghill" or "quiver" (what you use to carry arrows). How do you know? Context. The context shows us that &#1495;&#1493;&#1494;&#1492; means contract when it is used in parallel with &#1489;&#1512;&#1497;&#1514;.

    (2) Do you want to change the Hebrew language or understand it? In Hebrew, you do not say that you "make" a covenant. You say, rather, that you "cut" a covenant. That's just the standard coupling that is used for the expression. I'm sorry it's like that, but if you don't like it, take it up with HaShem (God).

    Red herring.

    Jason
     
    Last edited: Jun 8, 2008
  17. LittleLambofJesus

    LittleLambofJesus Hebrews 2:14.... Pesky Devil, git! Supporter

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    But of course. I still say Moses and the Hebrew Israelites were lucky enough to actually be back there with YHWH their Elohiym.

    Btw, the greek word "ginomai" is often mistranslated in the Greek New Covenant as it comes from the Hebrew word Hayah. Just thought that was interesting. You are welcome to check on that of course. Bye Bye. :wave:

    Exodus 3:13 And 'Elohiym is saying to Mosheh, "I-shall-be/01961 hayah who I-shall-be/01961 hayah". And-He saying "Thus you shall say to sons of Yisra'el, 'I-shall-be/01961 hayah, He-sent-me unto-you'". :)

    John 8:57 Said then the Judeans towards Him, "Fifty years, not as-yet thou are having, and Abraham thou has seen?'
    58 Said to them Jesus "Verily, verily, I am saying to ye, before Abraham's to be becoming/genesqai <1096> (5635) --I Am;" :)

    01961 hayah {haw-yaw} a primitive root [compare 01933]; TWOT - 491; v
    1) to be, become, come to pass, exist, happen, fall out 1a) (Qal) 1a1)

    1096. ginomai a prolongation and middle voice form of a primary verb; to cause to be ("gen"-erate), i.e. (reflexively) to become (come into being), used with great latitude (literal, figurative, intensive, etc.):--
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 9, 2008
  18. jaihare

    jaihare Well-Known Member

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    Yet another red herring.

    Would you mind acknowledging my post? Otherwise, I assume that you have conceeded that I am correct in stating that you have no formal study of the Hebrew language.

    I am not here for a religious debate or engagement. I am here to defend the words and languages of the Bible, which you do not know in any way and are only maligning by your twisted statements.

    Jason
     
  19. RebYosef

    RebYosef Newbie

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    I believe this to be self evident, Jason.
     
  20. Nadiine

    Nadiine Well-Known Member

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    :thumbsup:

    And even if people know how to read it properly, it still doesn't gaurantee proper understanding of it's true meaning.
    A problem I see regularly around here.
     
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